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Huh? So we can never heap scorn on scabs because they may someday die in a plane crash? Is that the point?
This sucks. At least no one else was hurt outside of the plane.
Except that 4 people died. So that means 2 people not on the plane died, too.
It all sucks.
Why are so many people on this site so eager to scold other posters? Get over yourself.
I would think that it would have parts flying off and, unfortunately, coming down 20 floors onto the street below.
There's nothing about this that isn't incredibly creepy.
My UNDERSTANDING, however, is that the building is painfully close to, if not right ON, the East River. Given that, wouldn't crashing into the river be a more logical choice to not injure/kill others and MAYBE save yourself as well? To deliberately turn into a building and/or population doesn't seem logical to me.
How much time might he have had to make a decision? Would a plane turn on its own without pilot manipulation if the engine went out?
While a family might not "need" the insurance money, a thoughtful suicide attemptee would probably go for that goal.
He was just a guy... not a career pilot (working the "pride" thing) coming down after a devastating loss in his career of playing a game. And reports are that he was berated heavily for the performance. People react in vastly different ways... we can't know if it was suicide or not, but I don't think it can be ruled out.
Also, the Yankees have the largest payroll in MLB. How could they have the NERVE to strike for $$? (I am NOT informed on this issue, so please just accept my opinion as just that).
I lived next door to Bill Freehan (Tiger Catcher through 1971) as a kid. He had the same exact lifestyle as my dad, a draftsman at GM. How did it (payroll) get so out of control? It's ridiculous what they make.
CONFIRMATION: Only 2 dead at this hour. Assuming the occupants of the plane. Hopefully, the homeowners were all at work or elsewhere when this happened.
The metal parts are in the street, but most of the body burned up. The engine is in the apartment it crashed into.
First pitch is scheduled for three hours from now for Game 1 of the National League Championship Series, yet the St. Louis Cardinals supposedly still haven't arrived at Shea Stadium.
The Cardinals are staying at a hotel near where a small plane crashed this afternoon in Manhattan, and it's been difficult for traffic to come out of Manhattan toward Queens. It's raining quite a bit here at Shea Stadium, so that surely won't help.
Word has spread that Cory Lidle, the New York Yankees reliever, reportedly piloted the plane and died in the crash. Mets pitching coach Rick Peterson coached Lidle with the Mets. Peterson also noted that Mets third base coach Manny Acta, a former manager in the Astros' farm system, lives in the building where the plane crashed. Because media is not allowed in clubhouses before postseason games, it has been difficult to seek comment from some players who have ties to Lidle.
Peterson said Mets players are glued to the television in the clubhouse to get reports from the crash.
http://blogs.chron.com/baseballblog/archives/2006/10/sad_feeling_her.html
They're reporting that isn't true now. Only two dead.
I don't think that's exactly the point. Of course, I didn't make the original post.
Lidle was scorned because he took the "wrong" side in a dispute over money. How important is that, really? I believe that was the point. If you're going to start scorning people, make it over something crucial.
John can obviously correct me if I'm misinterpreting.
In the abstract, that's a lovely sentiment.
I think the CNN story said that the debris from the plane mostly went down to the street. I'm wondering if anyone on the street was killed; the assumption is that the fatalities were people in the building, but they could have been passersby, too.
BTW, Lidle was married with at least one kid, a baby back in '03 when he was with TBJ. Just awful all around.
No I'm not. I'm saying it's a good time to reflect on what's truly important. Someone much wiser than me once said: "Treat everybody like it's their last day on earth because one day it will be."
People that treated Lidle poorly over a philosophical difference will never have the chance to make amends and that sucks.
If being reminded that treating people well at all times is what's truly important constitutes a political point then I guess I'm guilty as charged.
We have a great many philosophical disagreements on Primer and sometimes we make it personal. People, not philosophies are what counts. Philosophies change, life is constant, we should act accordingly because once life is gone--it's gone and how we parted, whether on good terms or bad, 'stands forver in the guide.'
If you knew that someone in front of you was going to die tomorrow how would you treat them?
We should treat people that way every day.
Rant finished.
Best Regards
John
Management types all over America are nodding in agreement with that statement.
He wasn't berated for his performance -- he was berated for a bad quote in the paper that may or may not have been damning of Joe Torre.
Thanks, Chipper and Keith. I would also think that debris from the building itself would also drop below. I hope there weren't any pedestrians nearby.
Considering 9/11, what I don't get is how anyone could be allowed to fly that close to Manhattan in the first place (that wasn't a commercial pilot, that is).
I don't think that's what's truly important in life.
We should set up a special thread so everyone here can make their amends with Albert Belle.
Again, John, in the abstract that is a lovely sentiment, but in the real world it's useless... at least in this instance. Please remember that labor issues often boil down to situations where families are devastated over what you reduce to a philosophical difference, and people who are sympathetic to Labor are going to react to any "scab" in a way that you may not like. It sucks that Lidle died, but he was what he was, and maybe it also sucks for him in that he couldn't make amends with those he hurt when he made the decision to be a scab.
It's not so awfully far from LaGuardia, so it would probably be impractical to ban air traffic.
Wow. First off, the sidewalk below where the crash happened isn't high traffic for pesestrians, so that's a lucky thing. It is on my jogging path, tho, and I'm a little weirded out about that. As an A's fan, I remember Lidle well and he had some good times there. All the best to his family and friends. And all the best to the ther victims.
So maybe Lidle was a jerk who spit in the face of dozens of millions of hard-working American families, or maybe he was a naive, silly kid. I have no idea which, so I certainly feel no concrete emotion but sadness about his untimely death. But I'd be lying to say that I feel as bad about it as I would if it was someone who I knew was a truly good person. People have differing value to history, which is a taboo thing to say, but absolutely true, and something that has to be faced.
I'm so sick of all these ballplayers like Cory Lidle and Albert Belle with all their picket-line crossings and the crashing planes into buildings and everything.
Being an MLBPA scab is nothing like being a scab against almost every other union.
How do we know they would want to make amends? An unexpected death is a tragedy, but it is not cleansing. If you vehemently disagree with somebody's actions and express your distaste, I don't see why that person's death should cause you to regret your expression of very real emotions.
squarely, even.
And someone did mention this.
Is it confirmed that there was an instructor aboard? It doesn't make sense to me that an instructor would condone something so risky in a small airspace. Why not turn around toward Brooklyn instead? Plus, if there was a problem with the pilot, such as fuel tanks or lack of attention, the instructor can just take over from the other seat. Odd.
I believe in being cruel to be kind. In the right measure.
RIP Cory.
Knew him enough to say hi, and I remember one conversation I had with him after he had a great start against Anaheim when I was asking him about his curveball, but that's about it. I definitely got the impression that he thought I was about 18 years old, but that hardly makes him unique.
If you're going to make a tasteless joke about this, the least you could do would be to make it funny.
They were a good 6 miles from Brooklyn. They could have turned toward Long Island City, I suppose.
No disrespect intended, but I doubt you're in a union. To me, when any union is in conflict with management, I support the union. It doesn't matter to me if the union I am supporting is comprised of gazzilionaires who would have no interest in supporting my union if we went out on strike. To me, the deal is that any union that is weakened weakens my union, and that ultimately will hurt me and my family.
It won't affect it at all- participation in the pension plan is not conditioned on union membership.
It would be my guess that someone who made as much as Lidle probably had a fairly sizable life insurance policy, if he was smart.
Apparently they had circled the Statue of Liberty, flew up the East River, and they lost radar contact at the 59th St Bridge.
It's an inside joke, 6-4-3.
Do a google search for "Chris Truby" and "Albert Belle".
I just heard Lidle only had 95 hours under his belt. That's not all that much "experience" in flying, is it? I could be wrong about this kind of standard, but it doesn't seem like significant experience.
I also heard there was an instructor on board. Where was said instructor at the first sign of trouble to guide things correctly?
Except that the MLBPA isn't a union.
But this whole conversation probably belongs in a different thread.
I can't read that w/o thinking that the spokesman's name is kinda sorta like Knute Rockne, who also died in a plan crash, IIRC.
If they play. The NLCS game is almost certain to be cancelled, for the weather if nothing else.
Who is to say he did not try? Planes crash with seasoned veteran pilots at the helm, too.
They'll probably play. There'll be a moment of silence, but they'll play.
I have been in different unions in my life and would never blindly favor a union over management. Sometimes it is the union that will ultimately hurt you and your family. The Baseball union is one that I have traditionally sided with the players until the '94 strike.
But isn't that always true?
Were the players that called Lidle a scab the only people ever in his life to give him a hard time? You singled them out. That choice was political. You could have just as easily criticized sports columnists or talking heads that may have been rude to Lidle after poor pitching performances.
Regardless, I should have left your original statement alone because now it's caused further comments on this issue, which is not what I wanted to spark.
In my mind the focus should be on the tragedy and on Lidle. There are plenty of other days and threads for discussing the strike.
Lidle was an awesome force to watch for much of 2001, and was positively unhittable in August, 2002: 45+ IP, 1 ER, 8 BB, 3 XBH, 0.20 ERA. And this game at Cleveland was one of the most dominant outings I've ever seen. The Indians could barely make contact. Even though he never regained such form after leaving Oakland, he was for a short time, amazingly, among the best.
But this whole conversation probably belongs in a different thread.
Does that mean you don't want me to respond? Anyway, guild, union, whatever you want to call it, it represents labor vs management. And to the public at large, they're perceived as a union, rightly or wrongly. Union members, like myself, are going to back labor 100% of the time in these situations.
When the Writer's Guild went on strike several years ago, I was compelled to support them, as well. I rooted for them to prevail. Same with baseball's situation.
There's a difference between saying "X is a bad ballplayer" and saying "X is a bad man", as some people do say of "scabs".
They report a "student and instructor" were on the plane. Then, I thought perhaps Lidle rented the plane out when he wasn't using it or something.
That's preposterous, of course, becuase I am quite positive Lidle would have contacted authorities by now with the news that "reports of my death have been exaggerated".
Very sad.
Agreed but then again, the real world kinda sucks so that's hardly a ringing endorsement.
Please remember that labor issues often boil down to situations where families are devastated over what you reduce to a philosophical difference, and people who are sympathetic to Labor are going to react to any "scab" in a way that you may not like.
Of course the failure to treat labour correctly (greed) in the first place is what created the difference in the first place. I've never grasped how being treated poorly justifies passing that treatment along. If you don't like being kicked in the teeth because of money/philosophy then why do it to somebody else?
It sucks that Lidle died, but he was what he was, and maybe it also sucks for him in that he couldn't make amends with those he hurt when he made the decision to be a scab.
Who did he hurt? It was the owners that were causing the pain, not the scabs.
What about those that would be hurt if he didn't scab? Back in the 1930's a man might have had the choice--let the kids starve or scab. What's more important--a CBA or feeding the kids?
The MLBPA and the strike are world apart from this scenario but reacting badly toward people you feel acted badly doesn't end suffering--it perpetuates it.
If Albert Belle died this moment I would still stand by every unkind thing I ever said about him.
Fair enough, but if you saw him in a ditch after a car accident would you administer first aid or walk away? Saying something unkind about someone is different from doing something unkind *to* someone.
Look, I'm the first to admit that I'm a pie-in-the-sky idealist. But I've seen up close and real personal that realism and the current mindset of striking back at those who you feel 'done you wrong' may yield some short term visceral satisfaction but over the long haul doesn't erase the bad feelings, it prolongs it and often adds more.
One day you wake up and realize that others--often innocent people who never did you any harm--ended up suffering because you had to have your pound of flesh. They in turn want satisfaction and it becomes a vicious, nasty, circle.
All it leaves is a bunch of bad memories and regrets--oftentimes those regrets are permanent because the opportunity to make amends is gone.
Multiply that several fold and you've got a lot of collective misery to go around.
Treat people right, even if they've done you wrong may yield you the odd kick in the teeth but I'll tell you this much--that kick doesn't hurt for nearly as long and leaves fewer scars.
Best Regards
John
Do a google search for "Chris Truby" and "Albert Belle".
I know what the "joke" is (I was on rsbb when it originated). Its just not that funny anymore and hasn't been since the Clinton administration.
Fine, but this was not an F-16.
Or just swap out "union" for "my religion" in your posts. Then you're a fundamentalist.
It just means that I feel uncomfortable discussing this in this thread. Yes, Brattain brought it up, and that, I felt, was inappropriate too.
YOU don't find it funny. That doesn't mean it's not funny.
It wasn't funny.
I'm no good Samaritan. My instinct (I kid you not) would be to call 911 before trying to anything that I am not trained to do. I'm careful that way.
In fact, to hear our local guy reporting from the field, and Inge's wife reporting with her home movies, I have to wonder if they have even HEARD the news yet. The local sports guy didn't even MENTION the crash.
And, local news is still playing the "Bless You Boys" theme from '84 as though the game will go on as scheduled.
If you think about it, to reschedule the game because a player (who is NOT from either team participating) has tragically died would probably not be reason "enough" to go through the rescheduling gymnastics. If an A or Tiger were the victim, I could see cancelation. But Lidle's season was over.
But you would do something to help--in this case dial 911.
Best Regards
John
It's one thing to say you can't feel the greatest of sympathy for someone you didn't personally know. But it's pretty scummy to make a comment like that above, as if Lidle were this horrible man for his actions in 1995. Sorry, he wasn't. Lidle's actions were so hopelessly remote from impacting any average American anywhere that, if you are going to condemn him, you might as well condemn yourself, also - I suspect at some point in your life you've made use of the internal combustion engine, after all.
The Yankees.com report also indicated that Lidle called ATC almost immediately after takeoff to report fuel problems. I will wait for the NTSB report on this one.
This is a tragedy, and I agree with the poster who wished athletes would stop flying their own planes.
Dzop...as usual...whatever.
i realize that at this point it's been recanted that people were killed in the building, but how about paying some attention to the person other than Lidle that was killed, eh guys? i see a lot of people saying "RIP Cory" and such, but this other guy's relations might have it tougher.
PLEASE do not think that was a sarcastic or irreverent remark. My point was just that he was no longer a participating player of MLB this season. To reschedule given that fact would be a little over the top, in my very humble opinion.
This is strange. If a problem is serious enough to report to ATC, you turn around and land. If is not serious enough to warrant landing immediately, you don't bother them.
Hey, if somebody's death causes us to take a look at ourselves then that's a good thing.
Too many deaths go by without us ever giving it a second thought; if we reflected on it a little more maybe we'd appreciate those still alive a little more.
That's a good thing :-)
Best Regards
John
and wow, how things like that don't matter at all in the face of something like what happened today. i'm glad no one else was injured (as far as we know at the moment) and i'm honestly grieving for cory and the instructor's families.
i'm going to try and remember him for the couple of really nice games he threw for the yanks this year and none of the other silliness.
Considering the owners were found to have negotiated in bad faith, '94 seems like a strange time to have stopped.
The plane is $187,000 and has a Lexus-like interior, says the Detroit NBC weatherman on MSNBC. Add the parachute, which at least gives the appearance of more safety, and I bet it becomes a favorite of rich, inexperienced pilots.
Fair enough. Always an acceptable resolution to any debate. :-)
Best Regards
John
As the other person hasn't been identified, I guess it is a little harder to direct our sympathies.
But you are right Scott. Point taken.
Pardon my lack of knowledge about Yankees contracts, but:
Wasn't Lidle going to be a free agent? I don't recall any option years or anything either.
As a Blue Jay fan, I'm hoping that there's no truth to the rumour that Cashman's gonna offer Cory Lidle to Ricciardi in a deal.
Inge (Detroit) just actually had those dreaded words tumble out of his mouth... "He died doing what he loved most".
Reports: Yeah, he called right away. But why would he continue with the flight instead of aborting? They say it was within a minute of take off.
Eyewitness Pilots: He was weaving in and out of buildings in Manhattan, against rules established... he was allowed to "skirt" the island by flying up and down the rivers, but was NOT allowed within the city.
Something is terribly wrong here. An instructor on board who doesn't demand aborting the flight right away and a pilot who doesn't abort at the first sign of trouble and is oh-so-close to adequate facilities and help to do so? Instead, they radio that there is a problem and then fly from NJ all the way to Manhanttan?
Barry Zito and Eric Chavez were among Lidle's teammates in Oakland in 2002, his last season with the A's. And Macha said he expected some in the clubhouse to have trouble dealing with news of the accident.
''`I imagine our chapel guy will be around,'' Macha said. ``I'm sure people are going to have their feelings about it, just maybe put the game in perspective. It's tragic. Tough to describe.''
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/sports/15734611.htm
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