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Saturday, November 22, 2008

LoHud: Abraham: Should the Moose make the Hall?

More importantly…should Abraham base his HOF vote on what Johnny Damon says and “that wins and losses matter” (among other things, natch)?

As for me, I don’t have a vote yet. But I will when he comes up for election in five years and I will vote for him.

I was on the borderline until a few months ago until a conversation with Johnny Damon convinced me. Johnny brought up the point that Mussina spent his entire career in the American League East and faced eight teams that won the World Series (Blue Jays 1992-93, Yankees ‘96, 1998-2000, Red Sox 2004, ‘07).

...A “win” is not necessarily a telling stat in a particular game. A pitcher can get rocked and get a win. Just as a “loss” often doesn’t indicate much beyond the score of the game.

But over the course of time, I do believe that wins and losses matter. Going 270-153 is indicative of durability and success. A starting pitcher can’t be 117 games over .500 by accident. Over that many games, the undeserved wins and undeserved losses balance out.

Mussina is one of 25 pitchers to have won 270 games since 1900. Only five – Lefty Grove, Christy Mathewson, Roger Clemens, Randy Johnson and Grover Cleveland Alexander – have a higher winning percentage than Mussina’s .638. That’s not company you can ignore.

There are many old-school writers who say Mussina never won the Cy Young, never won the World Series and won 20 games only once. Or they will focus on his falling short of 300 wins. That is weak reasoning.

Repoz Posted: November 22, 2008 at 12:36 PM | 8 comment(s) | Login to Bookmark
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Page 1 of 1 pages
   1. Twoey Guillen Posted: November 22, 2008 at 02:29 PM (#3014220)
I don't know...if he won more games against those teams, maybe they never make the World Series.
   2. Howie Menckel Posted: November 22, 2008 at 02:57 PM (#3014228)
Yes
   3. Jolly Old St. Neck Wound, Moral Idiot Posted: November 22, 2008 at 03:27 PM (#3014238)
I know that dcba was saying that tongue in cheek, but just for the hell of it I checked out Mussina's ERA by opponent for his career, against every team that he started against 25 or more times. Pretty interesting stuff, because note the teams he did best against, and the teams that hit him around. Against the two most consistently best teams, his ERA was lower than it was against the league in general. And his ERA in the Jake (11 games) was a run and a half higher than in any other park.

Career ERA 3.68 (Postseason 3.42)

vs Interleague (total) 3.83
Anaheim 3.63
Boston 3.66
White Sox 4.49
Cleveland 4.77 (5.71 at the Jake)
Detroit 2.91
KC 3.00
Milwaukee (15 G) 4.34
Twins 3.09
Yanks 3.38
Oakland 3.76
Seattle 3.84
Tampa Bay 3.50
Texas 3.64
Toronto 3.26
   4. Lassus: Posted: November 22, 2008 at 05:09 PM (#3014259)
Oh my god 5 more years of this, I'm going to have to leave the city to live in peace.
   5. aleskel Posted: November 22, 2008 at 05:35 PM (#3014270)
White Sox 4.49

and if anybody's wondering why the ChiSox hit him so well, check this out
   6. SacBunt Posted: November 23, 2008 at 01:04 AM (#3014404)
More nemeses of future HoF pitchers:

Maddux
Mike Lowell: 1.068, 53 PA
Andy Van Slyke: 1.063, 79 PA

Clemens
Jim Thome: 1.355, 70 PA (.898 SLG!)

Johnson
Frank Thomas: 1.017, 54 PA
Manny Ramirez: 1.010, 55 PA
Barry Bonds: 1.003, 62 PA

Martinez
Luis Gonzalez: 1.068, 57 PA
   7. Dewey, Steven Wright Wannabe and Soupuss Posted: November 23, 2008 at 01:41 AM (#3014408)
I guess that explains why my instinctive reaction is that Mike Mussina is not a Hall-of-Famer - most times I've seen him pitch, he's looked pretty ordinary.
   8. vortex of dissipation Posted: November 23, 2008 at 06:28 AM (#3014475)
Should Moose make the Hall?


Not before Lush. But then, that would cause some friction in the McKillop-Berenyi household, wouldn't it?
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