I don't know. I batted ninth on my Little League team even though I was the fourth-best hitter on the team (I was the smallest kid on the team, even at 12, had no connections to any of the coaches, and Little League coaches don't appreciate OBP any more than Dusty Baker does, don't you know? As my career progressed after that, I slowly changed into a pitcher, offense included.) I was always irritated about it, but I was never embarrassed by it or anything, like, "wow, I suck." (I sucked at fielding and had plenty of cause to be embarrassed over that, so it was all good.) It's too bad the manager didn't come up with "no, Justin, see, you're like a second leadoff hitter!" explanation, though that still wouldn't have explained his kid's Slappy Pierre-like out-munching presence in the #2 slot.

My point is, if I, at 12 years old, didn't get all demoralized and antisocial over batting ninth, I'm pretty sure major league players can get over it. Or at least should.

Kendall jokes aside, I thought the idea was that you do better offensively by putting a position player ninth. If that's really the case, why on earth -- other than the manager explaining it poorly -- would the position player feel bad about it? If the notion really is that you can better hide the weak hitting pitcher in the eighth slot, there should be no hard feelings here.

In my last few years of baseball, I batted leadoff for a series of managers who apparently appreciated OBP. I had roughly as many walks as I had hits, and had plenty of both.

When I started out I batted ninth, but I started out early. (Back then, second grade was early.) And I deserved to be batted tenth: I didn't get my first hit until the next season.

At either end of my "career" it wasn't unusual for the pitcher to bat somewhere other than 9th, if only because the kids with the best arms were also decent with the bat.

At either end of my "career" it wasn't unusual for the pitcher to bat somewhere other than 9th, if only because the kids with the best arms were also decent with the bat.

I think that the pitcher batted cleanup on just about every team I played on from little league, to Babe Ruth, to high school.

When I was 10, and I played with the 11 and 12 year olds, my coach batted me leadoff because I was small and walked a lot. I was a Reggie Willits type, I guess. I loved running the bases so I just wanted to get on any way I could. Hit me, walk me, I didn't care. I just loved the feel of that first base bag under my foot.

Lou Piniella said he didn't want to for just the reason the article cites.

I was the same way, Shooty. I was Brett Butler. I'd get two strikes and then just hit foul balls over and over until I could draw a walk or line something into left field. I was the fastest kid on the team and loved running, but I also was not much for obeying coaches' signals. That probably had something to do with my hitting ninth, too, come to think of it. They constantly wanted me to bunt, I guess because I was fast and maybe because my at-bats tended to take forever otherwise, and I'd constantly miss the bunt signal.

I was the same way, Shooty. I was Brett Butler. I'd get two strikes and then just hit foul balls over and over until I could draw a walk or line something into left field. I was the fastest kid on the team and loved running, but I also was not much for obeying coaches' signals. That probably had something to do with my hitting ninth, too, come to think of it.

Yep, I think we're kindred spirits. Running and sliding were my favorite parts of the game. I loved taking the extra base. Our little league field was mostly sand--you could pick clam shells out of it and it was dry and hard as a bastard--and I used to rip all the skin off my hip sliding into bases. It go to the point where they had to tape maxi-pads onto my leg with tape because of all the ooze soaking through my pants. I'm sinking blissfully into nostalgia now... Ironically, my older brother was the Dave Kingman on our team. He swang very hard at any pitch he could reach and he would hit some tape measure shots.

That was my father, all his life. Actually, he's always been a very good player. I developed my curveball playing against him, and it wasn't easy, because he can hit a curve a cold country mile. By the time I got into my late teens I could dial up enough of a fastball to blow past him most of the time, but he always killed my middling curve.

My father's been a truck driver all his life, 5'11" and thick and solid all through his upper body. I wish I had his baseball skills; he never played baseball competitively, on any level, I don't think. He was a professional hooligan as a teenager, constantly fighting and drag racing and stuff. It's just a suspicion, but I think he might have at least been able to break into the lower levels of pro ball if he'd been interested in playing baseball, rather than getting drunk and breaking somebody's nose. He's well into his fifties now and lugs a gut, and he still hits cleanup at every company softball game, and hits a Mark McGwire home run every time up without breaking a sweat. He can still hit my curve to the moon.

Funny random trivia about my father: He writes and eats with his left hand, but throws right handed (and throws HARD). I've never met anybody else in my life that does this.

Funny random trivia about my father: He writes and eats with his left hand, but throws right handed (and throws HARD). I've never met anybody else in my life that does this.

I do that too, except for the part about throwing HARD. There must be someone else doing it too, because my dad has told me that mix of traits should add up to me being a pretty good golfer, if I ever put my mind to it, but I've never played enough golf to find out.

Funny random trivia about my father: He writes and eats with his left hand, but throws right handed (and throws HARD). I've never met anybody else in my life that does this.

My dad does this, actually. Bowls right handed too (but ends up with his right foot forward, which has made for many a bruised ankle).

Weirdest thing.

Yep, I think we're kindred spirits. Running and sliding were my favorite parts of the game.

For me, all that was true - on defense. I loved to make the highlight plays - diving catches, barehanded catch/throw when charging on bunts (at 3b), up-the-middle plays (at 2b), outfield assists. If it involved running and eventually ending up on the ground, with an out or two mixed in there somewhere, I was all for it.

I lived in a brick house when I was young. I used to start at one end of the yard, throw a tennis ball toward the house at a 45-degree angle, then - when the ball bounced off the house - run full-tilt across the yard and dive to get the ball, then pop up, turn, and throw back to the fence back where I started. To work on offense I needed someone else to pitch, but I could work on defense any time I wanted.

My son seems to be the running/sliding type, but we live in a wood-frame house with vinyl siding, and old single-pane windows. Not happening.

But I think the reason many teams have been reluctant to go there is because managers don’t want to bruise the ego of whoever they have to slot in that ninth spot.

Uh, whomever you're batting ninth is, well, a ninth place hitter. He hasn't really earned the right to have an ego.

If the notion really is that you can better hide the weak hitting pitcher in the eighth slot, there should be no hard feelings here.

You're forgetting how players are judged. Moving a batter from eighth, in front of the pitcher to ninth, behind the pitcher, means that he's trading RBIs for runs scored. That's why there will be hard feelings -- fewer RBIs.

I lived in a brick house when I was young. I used to start at one end of the yard, throw a tennis ball toward the house at a 45-degree angle, then - when the ball bounced off the house - run full-tilt across the yard and dive to get the ball, then pop up, turn, and throw back to the fence back where I started.

I didn't do this, but, as my father was rarely home and my younger brother couldn't care less about baseball, I built up my throwing arm hurling a tennis ball against a brick wall out in our driveway. I'd play entire 'games', where I'd decide which brick I wanted to hit, and if I missed in a certain area I would give up a single or a home run or whatever... I really developed that stuff. I'd keep track of the opposing lineup in my head, and go out every other day and go nine innings, 123 pitches.

He writes and eats with his left hand, but throws right handed (and throws HARD). I've never met anybody else in my life that does this.

My older brother does most things right handed with the exception of throwing a baseball. How lucky for him.

Yeah. My wife is lefthanded, so I'm hoping my boy will be, too, but I'm thinking about tying down his right arm just to make sure. He'll thank me 30 years later when he signs a $65 million contract because he just posted a fluky 2.87 ERA in 52 relief innings and he's lefthanded.

Funny random trivia about my father: He writes and eats with his left hand, but throws right handed (and throws HARD). I've never met anybody else in my life that does this.

Mine does too. His older brother is lefty all the way, and the family theory is that he did those things in imitation.

reading what all yall written about your own baseball playing

and now i ask

even with all the practice, does anyone here think he had the talent to make it in pro ball, even the minors? i don't mean this as snark in any way. i'm just remembering barry lamar saying - "it's talent and you can't teach talent"

and justin,

i have 3 leftys in the house, and the one who WANTS to play baseball was born emasculated...

- oh yeah, about the throwing lefty or righty

it has to do a lot with who taught you to throw. i remember writing to a guy who is kind of like CBW and asking him why females (apparently) can't throw and he said it is all about being taught because males who throw with their non-throwing arm "throw like a girl"

Funny random trivia about my father: He writes and eats with his left hand, but throws right handed (and throws HARD). I've never met anybody else in my life that does this.

Mrs. Judges does this, and she does throw hard (for a very short woman). She grew up with righty brothers and had to use their old gloves, and learned to throw righty as a result. She also switch hits.

She also switch hits.

!

I wasn't even good enough to play on my high school team, but they needed bodies and I already owned a catcher's mitt. My progression went like this:

Little League: overmatched and slightly afraid of the ball;

Babe Ruth: No longer afraid nor technically overmatched (I could catch up with fastballs and had a decent enough arm), but pretty much a lard butt, so I wasn't exactly helping anyone.

High school: no longer afraid and no longer a lard butt, but back to being overmatched and becoming disinterested.

I was the best bullpen catcher in three counties, though. "Lookin' good, Trey! [gives hi-sign to manager, letting him know Trey was ready].

I'm left-handed and generally throw with my right hand. The reason is quite simple. Being a lefthander living in an oppressive right-handed world, my first baseball glove (bought by my well-meaning but highly unobservant grandmother) was a righthander's glove.

OTOH, I throw footballs lefthanded. I've practiced throwing baseballs with my lefthand in the past few years. With my right hand, it takes a while to find my slot. But with my right, I'm comparatively supernaturally accurate. I hardly need to think or aim. I throw and the ball goes true. But, because I've spent nearly my entire baseball-throwing life throwing righty, my left side is very weak. The various baseball throwing muscles in my right shoulder are simply better developed.

!

I knew I should have phrased that differently!

She also switch hits.

!

Now Pops, that exclamation point better not mean what I think you meant it to mean. This is a family site, afterall.

I throw left handed but bat right

Sort of lead to an embarassing incident when I joined a men's league after having 5-6 years off of baseball, where after taking a few BP swings in the first practice one of the guys asked "are you SURE you don't bat left-handed?"

actually, i've noticed more than a few ballplayers who are leftys who bat or throw righty (craig biggio) or who are rightys who bat or throw lefty

and by the way
i wonder if as many females as males fantasize about a bisexual opposite sex partner...

But what are your SAT scores?

I'm a righty, but can hit from either side. Oddly, I make good contact but have little power from the right side, while I have freakish power but iffy contact skills as a lefty. Willie McGee from the right side and Mickey Tettleton from the left. If only I could have put 'em together...

I'm lefthanded, but I'm so damn broke I resort to hitting tennis balls with an old staircase baluster.

And I can't even find a lefty glove anywhere...

And here's proof I went to a small high school; I got on the baseball team, and in the one year I played, I never got into a varsity game. Hell, even in junior varsity, I never got a hit.

I'm right handed.

Last weekend I went bowling, the second time in the last 3 months but probably the 4th time in the last decade.

I bowled a 75, a 66, and 72. So I bowled the last game left handed because it couldn't possibly be any worse, and at least it would be funny, and bowled a 135.

She also switch hits.

!

This almost has to be the funniest one character response in the history if BTF, doesn't it?

Funny random trivia about my father: He writes and eats with his left hand, but throws right handed (and throws HARD). I've never met anybody else in my life that does this.

My dad writes left-handed and does everything else righty; my 24 year-old cousin is the same way, down to his golf swing, and he's the best golfer I know.

I don't think my father's ever swung a golf club in his life. I need to take him golfing this summer and test the theory.

Funny random trivia about my father: He writes and eats with his left hand, but throws right handed (and throws HARD). I've never met anybody else in my life that does this.

Brooks Robinson is probably the most 'famous' player who did this.

even with all the practice, does anyone here think he had the talent to make it in pro ball, even the minors? i don't mean this as snark in any way. i'm just remembering barry lamar saying - "it's talent and you can't teach talent"

I played high school ball with two guys who went on to play college ball. One, Brad Hildreth, was an All American and played on the Olympic team in '88 before toping out in the low minors (AA, I think) in the Orioles system after being drafted in the 18th round. The other was a catcher at a small school and never got past college ball. We had a competitive team, often making it pretty far in the state playoffs. While those two were clearly the best players, most of the rest (excluding me - I stunk) were pretty good for our level.

The differnce between the guy who made it to college and those of us who topped out in high school was huge. The difference between the guy who made it to the minors and the guy who played small college ball was even greater.

I suspect most folks who think they were this close (holding fingers microscopically apart) to pro ball never had a chance to really observe folks who actually made it.

That's an observation I make all the time, whenever you see major leaguers acting selfish/childish/whiny/whatever when anything happens they don't like: It's not very much of a stretch to say that every player in the major leagues, even the guys who do nothing more than bounce between AAA and the major league bench for three years and then disappear, was the superstar athlete of their entire known world all the way from age 8 to age 20. Being in that kind of situation in one's formative years has a way of making a person self-centered.

I said back at the beginning of the thread that I thought my father might have been able to break into pro ball, had he focused on playing baseball through his teenage years. Probably not, I realize, and I'm just being nice to my dad by making the suggestion, in all likelihood; the distance between dominating beer league and even seeing the field in professional rookie ball is like the distance between Earth and Alpha Centauri. I know some guys that play or have played in semi-pro leagues or independent ball; I was able to pitch with some of them (the non-pitchers, that is) before I messed up my arm, but their overall athletic talent was so far above anybody else I even knew that it was like they were some other species. And these were guys that didn't even really come close to playing in the high minors, much less the majors; most of them were good college players that either never played pro ball or quickly washed out of the low minors.

But it does raise a point I think about from time to time: How many would-be great baseball players are lost, even here in the U.S., because they never pick up a baseball glove until they're 17, or because they wasted their youth on booze or drugs or cars or whatever and ended up in prison or somesuch, or (in the most likely scenario) got pulled into basketball or football or boxing or whatever instead?

I suck at baseball. I can't even really throw overhand, which has more to do with injury than coordination, but still...

Uh, whomever you're batting ninth is, well, a ninth place hitter. He hasn't really earned the right to have an ego.

However I don't think getting a bruised ego is a rational decision. I find myself somewhat in agreement with the article. I mean you're not exactly chasing a massive advantage here, if there's even a chance of having a player sulk and cause problems, why do it?

Sure you'd be babying the guy, but sometimes these guys need to be babied to get what you need out of them. I suppose if Kendall is enthusiastic about it, go ahead.

Funny random trivia about my father: He writes and eats with his left hand, but throws right handed (and throws HARD). I've never met anybody else in my life that does this.

The actual key is which eye is your dominant one. My sister was a righty swinger but a lefty looker (g), and hit line drives all over the park playing softball.
Someone like George Brett, who swings lefty but sees righty, has a significant advantage (Rickey Henderson too, the other way).

She also switch hits.

!

As long as she's not playing for the home team.

Not that there's anything wrong with that...

The actual key is which eye is your dominant one. My sister was a righty swinger but a lefty looker (g), and hit line drives all over the park playing softball.
Someone like George Brett, who swings lefty but sees righty, has a significant advantage (Rickey Henderson too, the other way).

Okay, my right eye's dominant and I'm lefty. That's good?

Funny random trivia about my father: He writes and eats with his left hand, but throws right handed

Me too. I also bowl lefty. And I bat and golf righty.

i can't do anything righty - i can't even pour milk
my oldest is just like me but his twin is very ambidextrous

how do you find out which eye is dominant?

I was reasonably fast but could not swing a bat to save my life. This turned out to be helpful once I reached the casual softball level, where bunting wasn't allowed. Because it turned out that my normal swing would top the ball and send it rolling just past the pitcher, who was on my team. So I'd usually beat out the ball for a single. It wasn't manly, but it counted!

This mostly sums up my softball game too. If I put everything I have into my swing I can hit a liner that makes it into the outfield... ...right where all the outfielders are playing. I have to hit a gap perfectly, which is tough with four outfielders, especially playing shallow. There's no way I'm getting a ball over their heads. Thus, my best bet is to hit it on the ground: even if a fielder gets it, I'm fast enough to beat most of them out, and may induce an error, often allowing me to reach second.

Incidentally, I think it's hilarious that my softball philosophy is the type of baseball philosophy that I despise: the whole "pressure on the defense, balls in play, hit it on the ground and run fast" philosophy. The only thing is, fielders are so bad in beer league softball that it's a viable philosophy. I think that's how these things get ingrained in ballplayers: they are initially true when most of the players suck, but the equation changes as you start playing with more skilled players.

even with all the practice, does anyone here think he had the talent to make it in pro ball, even the minors?

Hard to say. I had talent for sure, but other than the types of things I used to do for fun (like the brick wall thing mentioned upthread) I didn't at all prepare myself for a career in baseball. Lifting weights, for example... I didn't start until I was 31, upon realizing how little capacity I had to lift up my 3-year-old daughter. (I could do it, but not for as long as I'd like.) Had I been doing that back in my younger days, I might have had more than the 1 HR (an inside-the-park job) in my final year.

I had a great batter's eye, and could pick up pretty early whether the incoming pitch would be in the zone or not. I had enough reflexes to react to the pitch speed just fine. I could hit breaking pitches, such as they were at that level. But the difference between being able to do all that at the Babe Ruth / low HS level wasn't anything compared to the minors, let alone the majors. In short I don't know if my talent projected.

Ultimately I played baseball because it was fun. Professional baseball was always something I considered as a fantasy, not as a potential reality, and I lived my life that way. Had it been the one thing I could imagine myself doing, and had wanted it so much that I'd done everything I could to get there, maybe I could have. But I never treated it that way.

This mostly sums up my softball game too. If I put everything I have into my swing I can hit a liner that makes it into the outfield... ...right where all the outfielders are playing.

In beer-league softball I did just as you describe your own experience... though my specialty was the line drive up the middle. It never let me down. But when I finally started lifting weights, after a few months I could hit it over their heads. That was fun.

Then I stopped working out and got older, slowly slipping back to my old level. Damn.

I had great natural power and very good swing mechanics, but I was extremely hacktastic. I was also afraid of failure, which is never the right mindset for baseball. I was dominant in little league but by the time I got to high school baseball I was mostly a pinch hitter and pinch runner. Bad knees and hurt arm pretty much precluded me from playing defense.

I mean you're not exactly chasing a massive advantage here, if there's even a chance of having a player sulk and cause problems, why do it?

I see it the same way. Even assuming you've got good pinch-hitting options and the guy you're planning on batting 9th is an OBP heavy bad hitter the gains have to be in the noise.

And these batting order/ego things can get messy. The most expensive one I can think cost the Pirates the services of Kiki Cuyler. Yeah, it didn't have to. But it's not like the gain in batting Cuyler second (which is what he objected to) was huge.

My point is, if I, at 12 years old, didn't get all demoralized and antisocial over batting ninth, I'm pretty sure major league players can get over it. Or at least should.


You're forgetting that, at twelve years old, you were probably more emotionally mature than your typical major league player.

This idea offers some sadistic manager a way to kill two birds with one stone: Slot a player to want to cut into the ninth spot in the order, after the pitcher---and then put in a woman to pitch. The manager will be a hero to 51% of the population, the other 49% will get a good laugh, and that player he wanted to cut will probably just cut his own throat and save the team some money.

Slot a player to want to cut into the ninth spot in the order, after the pitcher---and then put in a woman to pitch. The manager will be a hero to 51% of the population, the other 49% will get a good laugh, and that player he wanted to cut will probably just cut his own throat and save the team some money.

Hey man, not even Tony LaRussa can fill out both line up cards.

Considering that there were quotes by disgruntled former Cardinal player, talking about how the team was a laughingstock for batting the pitcher eighth, and that TLR originally abandoned the issue because of headaches associated with answering questions, defending the practice and dealing with whining from his own team, it's not too unreasonable to think that players ego will get in the way.

how do you find out which eye is dominant?

easiest way is to look at a something about 5 feet away, hold your finger up where it's blocking a spot, then close your left eye, open it, close your right eye, whichever open eye moves your finger out of blocking whatever it is you are blocking is your weaker eye. Not sure if that is understandable.

I'm a lefty in all sports except hockey.
My twin is a righty, and apparently we each just grabbed the 'wrong' stick, but it worked for both of us.

Arnold Palmer was a big proponent of the "wrong hand" golf strategy.

I recall a 15-for-31 with 15 BB season in Senior League before growing a foot (taller) in high school.