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Could be worse. At least Jesse Helms is dead.
Batman! (nana-nana-nana-nana-nana)
BatMAN! (nana-nana-nana-nana-nana)
Batman! (nana-nana-nana-nana-nana)
BATMAN! BatMAN! Batman!
No. Sports teams from other cities frighten and confuse them. They are, after all, just simple cavemen.
I find it amazing that conservatives are praising him as some kind of great man. I would think they wouldn't want to call attention to the segment of the republican party helms represented. It's fine to say that, despite his deficiencies, he was a fighter for some of the causes they believe in, but conservative pundits are acting as if any mention of the horrible things Helms supported over his lifetime is just liberal bias.
Beating up a New Yorker with a baseball bat.
So easy a caveman could do it
I haven't canvassed the conservative media to see their commentary on Helms's death, but I did read the opinion piece in the Wall Street Journal today, which was a very balanced look. And the conservatives who are not acknowledging his faults are no worse than people like Lassus hailing the death of a racist.
It all evens out.
The posters here only uphold those with high moral standards, never people who would do something like casually leave a dead woman at the bottom of a river in their mommy's Oldsmobile Eighty-Eight.
To my regret, I was a constituent of his for about 10 years.
Helms hasn't been able to do any damage for quite some time, so I am rather indifferent to his passing. In a way, a Jesse Helms allowed us to point to him as some kind of focus of evil and ignore all the senators who supported his reactionary politics.
Is it a hate crime to beat a New Yorker in Mass?
Lookin away its another day,
And of course we love you
Radical man is the cia,
And we say no
Well round up the durham h.c. kids,
And the char grill killers
Jesse h. come into our pit,
All ages show
The hair in the hole in my head
Too bad the scene is dead
Memories in the shadow
Its back in time again
Because one alleged drunken driving incident is equal to endless rants against the negras, happily decrying against AIDS research so more of my queer friends could die all around me, singing "Dixie" purposefully to make a black colleague cry, and 50 years of hatred in power.
This is the first day in decades I'm sorry I'm an atheist, because now I can't happily imagine him screaming in hell for all eternity and beyond.
And the conservatives who are not acknowledging his faults are no worse than people like Lassus hailing the death of a racist.
I don't follow the logic here. You really think ignoring that history really is no worse than me being thrilled Helms is dead? Not that I think his death solves anything, it's just a personal thrill, really. But the two things you're comparing aren't really comparable. They are simply different things.
"There is not one single case of AIDS in this country that cannot be traced in origin to sodomy."
-- States News Service, 5/17/88
"I've been portrayed as a caveman by some. That's not true. I'm a conservative progressive, and that means I think all men are equal, be they slants, beaners or niggers."
-- North Carolina Progressive, February 6, 1985
"All Latins are volatile people. Hence, I was not surprised at the volatile reaction."
-- stated by Helms after Mexicans protested his visit to Mexico in 1986 to investigate allegations of political corruption.
"To rob the Negro of his reputation of thinking through a problem in his own fashion is about the same as trying to pretend that he doesn't have a natural instinct for rhythm and for singing and dancing. The Negro cannot count forever on the kind of restraint that's thus far left him free to clog the streets, disrupt traffic, and interfere with other men's rights."
When a caller to CNN's Larry King Live show praised guest Jesse Helms for 'everything you've done to help keep down the niggers,' Helms' response was to salute the camera."
--- Wilmington Star-News, 9/16/95
"The New York Times and The Washington Post are both infested with homosexuals themselves."
University of North Carolina (UNC). "University of Negroes and Communists."
HOWEVER -
He did say one funny thing that I could find:
"If God had wanted us to use the metric system, Jesus would have had 10 apostles."
Despite that bit of humor, and without even getting into George Wallace, I'm not oversimplifying anything. Helms had more to his life than hating and using his power to punish anyone who wasn't white and straight, undoubtedly. However, the quotes above merely scratch the surface. Even Byrd evolved. Helms never did, and he never apologized. Bono had to shove dying babies in Africa in his face to get him to begrudgingly start voting about 15 years too late for any help there, so don't even bother bringing that up. To say that he didn't use his power to do actual harm is not an oversimplification.
I don't care about the good that he did. He did more bad than good, and he died about 50 years too late in my opinion. And I'll take the shots for being evil for saying so. So be it.
Hey now. I'm a Mets fan.
He made a point to DEFINE himself as a bigot. Was he oversimplifying?
Went to see the Feelies/Sonic Youth freebie (HA!) gig at Battery Park last night.
Knew I wus in trouble when I overheard a three-eye shaded, black fish nutted stocking wearer with a near-dead bird in her hair, Stoic Youth fan about the Feelies..."If they were any good...I would have heard of them."
Mini-Woodstock for the homeland secure.
Well, hooray for him. I mentioned this. 20 years late and a million dollars short. He was upset about the 15 or so babies Bono made him watch die, not any of the populations he made a point to say deserved death for being gay or being in Africa.
Went to see the Feelies/Sonic Youth freebie (HA!) gig at Battery Park last night.
Ahhh I was going to go to this, Repoz, but I was watching a dog I was sitting that literally tried to commit suicide by jumping out the window because of the fireworks. Also, it would seem weird to me, I never liked these way way way later than when they happened shows. Seems wrong and late.
Although, I did see Television's reunion in 1992!
Sure, when straight southern whites started dying from it. Until then, forget it. Them faggots and niggers deserved to die.
He wasn't just a bigot. He was cruel, ignorant and un-american.
Without dragging in foreign leaders into the conversation, it's no stretch to say that Jesse Helms was the most despicable American politician of the 20th century. And that's saying a lot. He was worse than Wallace (because he was unrepentant), Barnett (because he was national, not regional), McCarthy (because at least McCarthy had the grace to die young), Talmadge, Watson, Tillman, Thurmond, Hubbard of Dearborn (though admittedly those last five were close), the whole stinking lot. The only sad note about his death was that it was about 50 years too late to do any good. If only he'd been run over by a bus before he ever got that WRAL job, the world would be a much better place.
And it's one thing to mourn his passing, give sympathy to his family, etc., etc., but any "conservative" who seriously tries to spin Jesse Helms' career into anything but the stinking pile of sewage that it was only proves how correct arkitektron often is about the mindset of many self-described "conservatives." In its own way, meaning within an American context, it's every bit as indefensible as trying to put a positive spin on Stalin, and far more indefensible than trying to put a positive spin on as trivial a figure as Jeremiah Wright.
There's a wide gulf between finding a person's racism disgusting and cheering their death - I'd guess 99% of people that existed on this planet before the last 50 years didn't like blacks (at least the non-blacks) or homosexuals. The comparison between Helms and Stalin is ridiculous.
Frankly, smiling at someone's death because they hold backwards beliefs is the very epitome of thinking every bit as small-minded as Helms's views on blacks and gays.
Really? I disagree.
Also, the internet is full of calling out crimes of comparison. Language is difficult like that. I don't think Andy was really COMPARING them, but I can see your point.
Nevertheless? Very very bad man. I see nothing wrong with my happiness at his death.
I believe Willie Randolph was saying the same words a fortnight ago.
But it feels really good. Besides, we can't all be saints. If it makes me a jerk to laugh at a jerk like Jesse Helms's death, so be it.
The world's a more interesting place with jerks in it--and a better place with some jerks out of it.
Edited to add: Boy, that situation with the Yankee fan sure sucks. To be hit with a bat in front of your family. Just horrible. There must have been a mob mentality and a great deal of alcohol at play. And to toss a little kerosene on the fire in this thread, who's a worse person, Jesse Helms or Robert Correia?
Smiling? Maybe. But it's funny that you call out comparisons between Helms and Stalin and then attempt to equate judging people harshly for their actions with judging them harshly and gleefully letting them suffer and/or die for their race or sexual orientation.
In some way, I have Jesse Helms to thank for the man I am today. There was hardly a week that went by without my mom telling me to love others so I wouldn't turn out like Helms (I grew up for part of the time in Raleigh).
Now if that guy was a Wareham Gatemen fan...he'd be dead.
I lived through a lot more of his joyful hatred and bigotry than a lot of people now defending him. That is the only excuse I can think of for all the handwringin on this thread.
Take it to the soccer board!
Ridiculous. Stalin is directly responsible for the deaths of tens of millions of people. Helms was a racist and a bigot. Whoop-de-doo. I find the views of some of the very people on this thread, who essentially believe that people are property of some nebulous concept of society, to be backwards as well, but I don't wish any of you dead.
Oh, you're in for it now. Racism GOTCHAS! are the progressive equivalent of the far right's U IS NOT A PATRI0T!!11, so get ready for a deluge.
I didn't know WRAL-TV commentators had such plenipotentiary powers. Did the weatherman cause the holocaust too? Oh, I forgot he did clerical work for Willie Smith. Watch out for the Office Rolodex of Bigotry!
Helms was elected to Senate in the 70s. Which extremism did he impose? Not supporting an AIDS funding bill that passed anyway? Who cares? He was a loudmouth who never got his way on anything out of mainstream political thought.
Yeah, those Germans absolutely adored Jews until Streicher came along.
Those southern whites were just chomping at the bit to allow blacks to have the same rights as other Americans until the guy with dumb glasses and big jowls told them on TV not to.
Helms was nearly irrelevant - a minority senator who pissed off half his party. When it came down to it, when the issue wasn't a mainstream bill, he was taken as seriously as Dennis Kucinich is.
It's funny--I actually agree with you--delighting in other's death is not really too constructive. But the "50 years too late" sentiment is pretty much historical fact. Whether this guy killed a million people or just willfully hurt thousands due to their race or sexual orientation, I don't see how it's too important to draw distinction. Any party that is holding him up has some serious moral problems.
Touché, though I doubt there was much love there prior to Ngeze (I must admit I know little about Rwandan history).
What did he do to hurt them? The civil rights die was cast long before Helms was in government, he was almost always in the minority until the last decade of his career, by which point he was an irrelevant anachronism. The previous poster's example of Kennedy is instructive - when Kennedy dies, there's absolutely nothing wrong with progressives celebrating his contribution to progressive ideals despite Kennedy's behavior in the Kopechne incident.
I'm not saying we should celebrate Helms, but I find cheering for his death to be over top, neo-con levels of absolute lameness.
You are aware he was elected chairman of the senate foreign relations committee, aren't you?
This quote, and the ones Szym has been putting up, assumes that politicians have no ability to move the electorate one way or the other, if they decide to take the high road.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
Seemed to get elected a lot, though, just like Strom Thurmond. He and the people who voted for him are responsible for his views.
You seem too quick to dole out the forgiveness and absolution, Dan. The fact that Helms wasn't taken seriously by most people doesn't mean that he wasn't taken very seriously by many. And they were all cowards, every one of them.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Helms's career led directly to lynchings, if only because they empowered and encouraged a hateful idealogy. Helms's words had consequences, and those consequences ought to hang around his neck like the proverbial albatross.
Ok. But Helms was their bigot enabler, the man in charge, so he gets the brunt of the hate.
EDIT: I reread what I wrote, and it seems harsh, but I've left in unchanged. Bigots like Helms were able to get elected and stay in power for half a century on the basis on their words: code words, word games, whispered words, outrightly racist words, accusatory words, conspiratorial words, and cleverly hateful words. I feel like talking about Helms in anything other than those terms is using clever words to obscure the man's legacy, to whitewash the past and absolve the people that voted for him and supported him. That's a mistake, and it ignores the fact that many people still hold pieces of Helms's ideology today, and that by absolving Helms we indirectly absolve racists and bigots today. Good people beat Jesse Helms, and the people like him, in his lifetime by calling them what they were, and it's a mistake to call them anything but what they were in death.
Except for the cost of the gas, that sounds like a fine and pleasant way to spend the day.
Really? I had Strom Thurmond as my trailer in Value Over Replacement Politician. Perhaps my algorithm rewards career length too highly because I have set the replacement level bar incorrectly. I will have to review.
There's a wide gulf between finding a person's racism disgusting and cheering their death - I'd guess 99% of people that existed on this planet before the last 50 years didn't like blacks (at least the non-blacks) or homosexuals. The comparison between Helms and Stalin is ridiculous.
Frankly, smiling at someone's death because they hold backwards beliefs is the very epitome of thinking every bit as small-minded as Helms's views on blacks and gays.
Dan, I don't mind whatever you might say about the fact that I'm cheering Helms's death, because as I said, the only thing not to cheer about it is that it came 50 years too late.
But the reason I deliberately wrote those underlined words was to avoid making any direct comparison between Helms---or any American politician---and a mass murderer like Stalin. "Within an American context" means that just as an historical world figure can scarcely sink below Stalin, within a 20th century American context it's historically impossible to think of any politician worse than Jesse Helms.
And as I also said, perhaps you had to be living in North Carolina in the 1960's to fully understand in your gut the depths of this loathsome man's depravity. He didn't "cause" racism, but he fanned its flames in a way that would almost literally cause an honest person to throw up. If you ever read the transcripts of his hundreds of "editorials" (in terms of format, they were like Eric Sevareid's commentaries at the end of the CBS Nightly News), you might begin to understand what I'm saying, but even the transcripts don't fully convey the sheer hatred and the demagoguery. You had to see them live, and within the context of the events such as the sit-ins and the voting rights movements. He was a walking White Citizens Council kerosene can, and proud of it.
These were not mere "backwards beliefs," Dan. Their effect was way beyond that. They did more to poison the racial atmosphere of North Carolina than anything you might even imagine.
And I make no apologies whatever for cheering Helms's death. Do you mean to tell me that you would cheer no man's death? Not even Stalin's? And pardon my Bernard Shaw moment, but not even a man who'd raped and sodomized your wife?
If this is merely a statement of your opposition to the death penalty, fine. But in this case it wasn't a state execution, or a lynching, that I was cheering. I was only thanking God for finally putting Helms out of our misery.
So the fact that he was no more a racist than an eighteenth-century Portuguese slave-trader is supposed to mean something?
If they wish "negras" (hard to not use that favorite term of Helms') and queers dead, then yes.
To delight in his death demonstrates a lack of understanding for how society changes and how individuals themselves operate. For all we know, 500 years from now, people will look at 21st century America and talk about how immoral we were for persecuting necrophiliacs and NAMBLA.
Please. Then let them worry about that 500 years from now. Helms did harm in my lifetime, which affected people I knew and could see. (outside of San Francisco in the 90's, I spent some time in Rocky Mount in the 80's) My distaste and hatred for him bears out NO MISUNDERSTANDING OF ANYTHING.
(I loved what Andy wrote, but I knew as soon as he wrote STALIN it would get latched onto.)
Wow. That racism is simply the default position for any southerner born between 1900-1950 would be news to many of my friends and family. You do worse than cheer his death when you deny him the ability to think for himself.
You're also assuming a fairly linear progress in how people have dealt with racism and anti-gay feelings throughout time, as if it's just been one steady march forward towards enlightenment. There have been many places and times more tolerant of racial diversity and homosexual practices that preceded Helms's time and place.
Sure sociocultural factors play a role in shaping beliefs, but to reduce it to "It just makes him old and southern" is just a way to avoid thinking about something, not an explanation in and of itself.
Does that include Cub fans?
I really don't mean to be a Jesse Helms apologist. I certainly have lost no sleep over his death. He represents an ideology that is based on fear and intolerance, rather than logic and compassion. The world will be a better place when the ideas he espoused are no longer respected and taken seriously. All that said, he was a person, a person who was already removed from the public spotlight and no longer had the ability to affect public discourse, and a person who almost certainly felt that what he was doing was right, regardless of how strongly you or I or anyone else might disagree with him. His death is no victory for civil rights.
I apologize for all the ranting and the run-on sentences. It's been a long time since I've gotten any sleep. I also know that how you feel is how you feel, so I'm certainly not going to fault anyone for being happy about Helms' death when I'm defending Helms' own beliefs as being in some way beyond his own control. I just wish people, even when they have good reason to harbor hatred towards an individual (as Lassus and others here seem to have), could look at the world and at specific people and events with more empathy and understanding of what led things to be as they are. I think doing so makes a much more convincing case to those you might be trying to persuade than righteous indignation does.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Helms's career led directly to lynchings, if only because they empowered and encouraged a hateful idealogy. Helms's words had consequences, and those consequences ought to hang around his neck like the proverbial albatross.>
Your branch broke. This is one of the absolutely most ludicrous, ridiculous, patently absurd things I've ever heard on this site. Helms wasn't the least bit known by the general public until 1960. Can you point to a single lynching where it's even in the remotest realm of possibility that Helms was responsible?
I swear, some of you guys live in cartoon fantasies even more colorful and whacked-out than the ones Bush and the more pro-war members of the administration live in.
As a whole, the sum of the thoughts of racists did that. Helms isn't responsible for the sum of racism during that time, he was just one guy of a whole many, whose existence nobody cared about until the 60s, and he had as much of an effect on white racism as a fart has on the smell at a rendering plant.
I would cheer their deaths if they had been in a position to continue what they were doing. Stalin was still a mass murdering dictator. Helms was a harmless old man apparently deep in the throes of dementia.
The idea that hatred breeds hatred applies to *everyone*, not just those with "bad" beliefs. Cheering the death of any old man, senile, swaddling in his own feces, and no danger to anyone, is a stain on your own souls. I'm no Christian by any stretch of the imagination, but the admonition to love the sinner, not the sin, seems to me to be a prudent one. Cheering the deaths of people who hold beliefs you find reprehensible is a dark, nightmare-filled road to walk on.
So, how does the world work? Is there some invisible machine that forces the masses to blindly behave like depraved, bigoted pricks?
People are responsible for the way they behave. That Helms was a senator for so long, it gave him more power than most to influence how the world worked. He spent his entire life devoting himself to discriminate and withhold help to a whole host of peoples who never did him any harm.
Helms was a despicable, retrograde, porcine cretin. If I ever get the chance, I'm going to piss on his grave.
Dan, this is just an incredibly sad thing to read. A man in power, one of the most influential men in the government, a leader, and his views had no effect on anyone, you say. Do you think Helms wanted to be elected and be in power to have no effect, that that wasn't his purpose? REGARDLESS of what his views were, that was the point of his life. To have an effect. It is the fact that his views were what they were that made THE EFFECT IT WAS HIS DESIRE TO HAVE AS A LEADER so horrible. To say he had no influence on anyone is.... incredible.
Alan S, I hear what you are saying in your third paragraph. I understand you aren't being an apologist and are taking the higher ground and more holistic, encompassing view. I freely admit that IN THIS CASE, such a view is beyond me. Although this
when I'm defending Helms' own beliefs as being in some way beyond his own control.
made me think of REPO MAN:
"The lights are growing dim. I know that a life of crime led me to this sorry fate. And yet, I blame society -- society made me what I am."
"That's bullsh-t. You're a white suburban punk, just like me."
Lastly, I would never feel that Helms' death is a victory for race relations or anything at all. It's simply a personal reaction. He was a terrible man, and I'm glad he's dead. My grandfather was alcoholic and treated my grandmother and mom like crap. I was glad when he died. It's simply a base reaction. That was the extent of my expression at the start.
Pretty much, yes. When was the last time a politician really had an effect on people's beliefs other than preaching to the converted? Abraham Lincoln? On shaping people's beliefs, Numa Numa or the Tron Guy are probably as relevant as members of government.
I didn't cheer Strom Thurmond's death, but at least there's some shred of justification there, since he actually impeded things like voting rights for blacks. Jesse Helms wasn't elected until 1973.
After last season, the only cheering I would do for the death of a Helms is if it were Wes.
The majority of North Carolinians who were able/allowed to vote, sure.
This is a scary line of thinking. General thought only progresses with herculean efforts and education. A holocaust is no more literally impossible than it was 60 years ago or for that matter 15 years ago or last year. Any progress that has been made is in the exact opposite of those improperly wielding Godwin's law to shut down the only positive use of the holocaust--as a reminder of what you or I and everyone else on the planet are capable of.
Yeah, my father was still trying to be a Cubs fan at the time, but it's a tough household.
Dan, I agree, I think that's why people were saying "50 years too late". So I agree his death did nothing except to expedite this response, which I wholeheartedly endorse:
As a whole, the sum of the thoughts of racists did that. Helms isn't responsible for the sum of racism during that time, he was just one guy of a whole many, whose existence nobody cared about until the 60s, and he had as much of an effect on white racism as a fart has on the smell at a rendering plant.
"Just one guy of a whole many?" Only in the most reductionst literal and mathematical sense. Again, all I can say is that you weren't there, and it shows in your dismissal of his significance. You're positively Marxist in the way you reduce racism to Great Social Forces, and denying the force of individual will and personality.
And I make no apologies whatever for cheering Helms's death. Do you mean to tell me that you would cheer no man's death? Not even Stalin's? And pardon my Bernard Shaw moment, but not even a man who'd raped and sodomized your wife?
I would cheer their deaths if they had been in a position to continue what they were doing. Stalin was still a mass murdering dictator. Helms was a harmless old man apparently deep in the throes of dementia.
Which is why I emphasized that his death came 50 years too late. News of his death on Friday merely made my day, and if it hadn't been for this thread only my wife would have heard my thoughts on the subject. Whereas if it had happened in the middle of one of his diatribes about the "Communist Martin Luther King," it would have been as poetic an ending as a potential murderer being killed by a discharge of his own gun.
The idea that hatred breeds hatred applies to *everyone*, not just those with "bad" beliefs. Cheering the death of any old man, senile, swaddling in his own feces, and no danger to anyone, is a stain on your own souls. I'm no Christian by any stretch of the imagination, but the admonition to love the sinner, not the sin, seems to me to be a prudent one. Cheering the deaths of people who hold beliefs you find reprehensible is a dark, nightmare-filled road to walk on.
This is not only a noble sentiment, but a practical one. It's tough to think straight when vengeance clouds your mind.
However, there are always exceptions. And Helms is one of a tiny handful among them. Pure poison, 200 proof. No excuses, and no mourning. And if my soul is stained by that thought, so be it.
When was the last time a politician really had an effect on people's beliefs other than preaching to the converted? Abraham Lincoln?
Well, for starters you might say that a man named Bush---and 39 years before him a man named Johnson---had a pretty strong influence in guiding his country to war on the basis on misinformation. I doubt if these wars would have been waged without them.
--------------
Lastly, I would never feel that Helms' death is a victory for race relations or anything at all. It's simply a personal reaction. He was a terrible man, and I'm glad he's dead.
In the context of 2008, that's a fair summary of my thoughts on Helms's death today. It's only too bad that it didn't take place in 1958 rather than two days ago.
The majority of North Carolinians who were able/allowed to vote, sure.
Having being involved in a voter registration campaign in eastern North Carolina in 1963, I can attest first hand to the aptness of that qualification on E-X's part. But since many of those white North Carolinians were open to debate and were capable of changing their views on race---unlike Helms---I don't think that they deserved our hatred, only our attention. There are important distictions to be made among pieces on a chessboard, and their respective powers to influence the outcome of the game.
The majority of the country likes wars when they're winnable and hates them when they're not. Most people didn't give a #### about getting involved in Yugoslavia, where we had even less national interest, because it was a military walk in the park. If Iraq was equally as easy, the war would probably have an 80% approval rating, whether or not Bush relied on bad intelligece or Bush made stuff up or Bush blew up the towers.
Now there's a brave rebuttal.
Well, for starters you might say that a man named Bush---and 39 years before him a man named Johnson---had a pretty strong influence in guiding his country to war on the basis on misinformation. I doubt if these wars would have been waged without them.
The majority of the country likes wars when they're winnable and hates them when they're not. Most people didn't give a #### about getting involved in Yugoslavia, where we had even less national interest, because it was a military walk in the park. If Iraq was equally as easy, the war would probably have an 80% approval rating, whether or not Bush relied on bad intelligece or Bush made stuff up or Bush blew up the towers.
But none of this has anything to do with my point. The point is that the war in Iraq---the war in Iraq---was begun as the result of misinformation provided by President Bush. And it wouldn't have begun without him. "The majority of the country" didn't start the war on its own. You're completely switching cause and effect in terms of public suppport.
To put it bluntly: No Bush misinformation, no Iraq war. Its current state of success and / or popularity is wholly irrelevant. The question is how and why it was launched in 2003, and who was responsible for that.
And here's a hint: His name wasn't Lincoln.
You want to have a pleasant back-and-forth about a contemptible piece of excrement like Helms?
No thank you. I prefer to call a donut a donut. It wouldn't be honest of me to grant that prick one bit of congeniality.
Quite frankly, I don't understand why you would want to talk nice about Helms. It's not like he ever actually earned that type of respect. In fact, he spent his entire life causing people to disrespect him.
Take, for example, LBJ's Great Society. It was opposed by most of the Republican Party, in '64 the Republican candidate opposed it. In the years since, no Republican has dared to challenge the existence of Medicare and Medicaid, even while it has been reformed and rolled back around the edges. It was the very creation of these systems that created people's positive feelings toward them - politicians are not merely the effects of already-existing structures, but they can affect and even create structures that in turn impact people's opinions.
Jesse Helms, in opposing civil rights for racial and sexual minorities, worked as hard as anyone to prevent structures being put in place to support productive change in our society. (Here, I've switched from talking about hte Great Society to talking about civil rights legislation and support for AIDS research and health care, among other issues on which Helms was on the wrong side of history.)
Further, Helms' express bigotry in mass media helped to make acceptable other public bigotries. Really, your theory of history is pretty much indefensible. How, exactly, does change happen? If all political actors are merely the effect of causes greater than themselves, the structures of their society, how do societies come to have new beliefs and practices? Someone has to be an agent. Unless you're presuming some sort of vulgar-Hegelian world spirit that moves people, you need to be able to theorize human action that affects history. I would suggest that Jesse Helms, in the positions of power he held in the Senate and in domestic politics and domestic journalism, was well-placed to effect change, and he fought for discrimination and hatred, and brought suffering onto the bodies of people who had never harmed him. The world would have been a better place without him.
A part of me experienced a moment of happiness upon his death, but I find it much too convenient to load the sins of many upon the head of one. Let's remember specifically what Helms did that was evil, but not forget his co-conspirators in high places who were content to let ol' Jesse walk point on issues they also supported.
Pissing on his grave may give a moment of satisfaction (I know this from personal experience), but it's also a way to forgetting wider culpability in the evils that person represented.
Progress is largely a illusion based upon our slaves working at much further remove from our consciousness.
I'm perfectly happy to have a debate as to the precise contours of Helms' effects on the political culture and economy of the US. It seems like we differ more in degree than kind.
What I was responding to, though, was Szym's lunatic theory of non-agentive history: When was the last time a politician really had an effect on people's beliefs other than preaching to the converted? Abraham Lincoln? On shaping people's beliefs, Numa Numa or the Tron Guy are probably as relevant as members of government.
Agree, definitely.
I just feel that, in the grand scheme of things, Jesse Helms was not a significant player.
Disagree, definitely. You make a clear point, Alan, but I would have to absolutely and positively find this to be incorrect. I mean, I'm not sure how grand your grand sceme is. Helms didn't create racism, absolutely. However, as he fomented, encouraged, promoted, instigated, and consciously and vocally celebrated racism during a very very volatile time in the American experience, he was absolutely significant.
So we've moved from "Helms caused lynchings" to "Helms tried to stop the government from funding stuff."
Well, you might as well hate me and wish for my death, too.
Helms, in my view, was probably a bad man. You know what else is bad? People full of so much hatred that they find the deaths of others, not a pragmatic necessity in some cases, but actual cause of celebration, full of cheering and grave-pissing. Take a look in the mirror and you'll see some Jesse Helms in yourselves, too, because when I see this attitude, I see hatemongers breeding hatred. Helms was beyond hurting anyone - the only possible reason anyone could be happy at his death this week is revenge, which is a sour dish.
I was using an example to discuss one simple way in which politicians move popular opinion - through the creation and maintenance of different structures.
Then I moved on to discussing the issues on which Helms was important - particularly his struggles against civil rights in the 60s and 80s, with his work in the 80s also encompassing the prevention of treatment and research on HIV/AIDS. I said quite specifically that in talking about Helms, I was no longer talking about the Great Society, but rather about the very real effects of Helms' bigotry.
EDIT: Again, to be clear, I cited your words in my posts 86 and 89, in which you argued that politicians are as important in the construction of popular opinion as the Numa Numa guy. That is badly incorrect, both because philosophically you seem to be left without a model of historical change, and because historically we see jumps in public opinion based on government interventions in different fields, with the Great Society being a good example (regardless of its merits.)
MCoA's response to your "politicians have no influence" was well-thought-out and clear in presentation. You only responded by picking out one utterly unrelated point.
Also, you equated what I already admitted was my base reaction of "hatred of one person with no power (that's me) hating a dead man" to "a government official with policy-making power hating entire races". Those really aren't quite the same thing no matter what sort of righteous parallel you try and draw.
People full of so much hatred that they find the deaths of others, not a pragmatic necessity in some cases, but actual cause of celebration, full of cheering and grave-pissing.
Not others. This man. Helms. I take no joy in death, nor willful death. A man killing Helms would be worthy of justice and if I was the only one who witnessed it, I would turn him in for such. Stop being such a drama queen.
EDIT: Again, to be clear, I cited your words in my posts 86 and 89, in which you argued that politicians are as important in the construction of popular opinion as the Numa Numa guy. That is badly incorrect, both because philosophically you seem to be left without a model of historical change, and because historically we see jumps in public opinion based on government interventions in different fields, with the Great Society being a good example (regardless of its merits.)
16 million people viewed Numa Numa. Do you think 16 million people could actually even specifically outline the views of their senator, let alone be persuaded by them?
Even if we accept for the sake of argument that the president can change beliefs, Helms was never president, just 1 of 100 senators. I'm not even convinced that a majority of Americans could name both of their senators.
Say no more, Dan. You've made your real point.
So... did they ever determine if the guy was really a Yankees fan?
The topic of this thread is off-topic. Please take it to the Lounge.
Also, you equated what I already admitted was my base reaction of "hatred of one person with no power (that's me) hating a dead man" to "a government official with policy-making power hating entire races". Those really aren't quite the same thing no matter what sort of righteous parallel you try and draw.
He's not a government official with policy-making power. Even assuming he ever got any legislation passed that took away the civil rights of anyone, that would be a reason to celebrate his death if it happened at that point of time not this week. The pathology that leads one to have so much hate for a powerless elderly dementia patient is a pretty sick one, in my worldview.
I'll guarantee you that a majority North Carolinians knew who Jesse Helms was, and well before he became a Senator.
But it's nice to see your belated acknowledgement that at least a president can change beliefs. Helms would have likely said "that's mighty white of you."
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