There must be someone out there who'll defend Wilson, and free us from this embarrassing alliance. (smile) Here I even went to Wilson High School, and I can't think of much good to say about him. Maybe Warren Buffet or Miss Manners can put in a good word for the old boy.

There are good things to say about Woodrow Wilson.

-he championed a set of basic child labor laws, pushed them through Congress
-he passed a bunch of anti-trust legislation

He wasn't all, all bad on the domestic front. But the bad far outweighs the good, because on the issues where Wilson was bad, he was about as bad as one could reasonably expect a president to be.

There are good things to say about Woodrow Wilson.

* Despite being a staunch racist, he was not an anti-semite.
* He went to Princeton.
* He wasn't Pete Rose.

Okay, I'm fresh out.

There are good things to say about Woodrow Wilson.

* Despite being a staunch racist, he was not an anti-semite.
* He went to Princeton.
* He wasn't Pete Rose.

Okay, I'm fresh out.

remove Princeton and this pretty much sums up my thoughts on what Wilson was good for as well...

Well, DN would probably find something to like in McReynolds, his Supreme Court appointment who fought the New Deal tooth and nail.

Comically enough, though, although Wilson was not himself an anti-Semite, McReynolds was a raving anti-Semite who refused to speak to or shake hands with Jewish justices.

EDIT: to make clear I didn't think DN would like someone for being anti-Semitic.

Well, DN would probably find something to like in McReynolds, his Supreme Court appointment who fought the New Deal tooth and nail.

McReynolds seems to have been an entirely despicable personality, from everything I've read about him, but I like his jurisprudence a lot, yes. It's ironic that Wilson appointed both him and Brandeis.

There are good things to say about Woodrow Wilson.

* Despite being a staunch racist, he was not an anti-semite.
* He went to Princeton.
* He wasn't Pete Rose.

Hmmmm, how much does that explain about Princeton?

It's ironic that Wilson appointed both [McReynolds] and Brandeis.

And that Ike appointed Warren and Whittaker, and that Bush appointed Thomas and Souter, and that....

It's ironic that Wilson appointed both [McReynolds] and Brandeis.

And that Ike appointed Warren and Whittaker, and that Bush appointed Thomas and Souter, and that....

Yes, but I wasn't talking about the fact that their judicial philosophies differed; that's relatively common, even among justices appointed by the same person. I was talking about the fact that one was a virulent anti-semite, much worse than others of his day, and the other was not just Jewish, but the first Jewish justice. It would be like appointing Thurgood Marshall and Jesse Helms. The 1950s version of Helms, not the 1980s version.)

He didn't merely attend Princeton, he was president of the university. Do you think his racial views were out of place there or drew negative comment?

One reason for libertarians to hate him is the Federal Reserve Act.

Means are very important. Helms was largely able to maintain his national position and influence because he aimed for the same ends as the mainstream of the Republican Party of the time on key issues. That's how many demogogues gain positions of power and influence -- they are seen as useful partisans who can do the dirty work that would harm the public opinion of the mainstream members if they did it.

I don't dismiss a person's nastiness as irrelevant, but it's more useful to look at the social structures that support a person like Helms and whom those structures ultimately benefit.

If individual rights rest upon political or social consensus, they are on incredibly shaky ground -- you've largely jettisoned faith in natural rights or a higher power for faith in the religion of Progress.

He didn't merely attend Princeton, he was president of the university. Do you think his racial views were out of place there or drew negative comment?

DMN got in on the basis of a high school essay he submitted as a writing sample on his application form: "The Racist Jew: Myth or Monster?"

If individual rights rest upon political or social consensus, they are on incredibly shaky ground -- you've largely jettisoned faith in natural rights or a higher power for faith in the religion of Progress.

They are on shaky ground! Look around you! The world, in myriad ways, sucks. Recognizing the very precariousness of human life, to me, is the starting point for action in the world, for collective work and the building of alliances to improve people's lives and bring about new possibilities for human flourishing.

I have no idea what you mean by "faith in progress." I never articulated a faith in progress - I don't have such faith, and it's in no way necessary to the philosophical program I attempted to articulate.

He didn't merely attend Princeton, he was president of the university. Do you think his racial views were out of place there or drew negative comment?

David can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that Princeton was the last Ivy League school to integrate, and if I'm not mistaken, it was either during or right after World War II, and many decades after the last of the other seven.

He didn't merely attend Princeton, he was president of the university.

I may have heard that somewhere before, yes.

Do you think his racial views were out of place there or drew negative comment?

Well, I don't know how open he was about his racial views (or, for that matter, how well-formed they were) when he was president of the university, so I can't say for certain. But Princeton was not exactly a bastion of enlightened thinking at the time; it was always known as the "Southern" Ivy League university. 'Genteel' racism would surely not have been out of place or drawn negative comment; the aggressive racism of his presidency might well have, though.


As for Princeton integrating, it was actually the federal government that integrated Princeton, through the Navy's V-12 program, during WW2. It wasn't until 1947 that Princeton admitted its first black through regular channels. (Actually, one was admitted in the mid-1930s, but was 'discouraged' from attending when Princeton realized he was black.) (And yes, Andy, I believe it was the last to integrate.) There were actually a handful of black grad students before then, but Princeton's graduate programs have always been small and marginalized.

Didn't Paul Robeson attend Princeton? Or was that Columbia?

There are good things to say about Woodrow Wilson.

I'm going to stick up for Wilson by saying that - no matter how badly he botched the aftermath - American involvement in WW1 was just and necessary, and that the Fourteen Points were an excellent basis for a postwar settlement.

This is not to defend other areas of his Presidency.

Didn't Paul Robeson attend Princeton?

No, Rutgers, though he was born in Princeton.

MC -- the progress post wasn't aimed directly at you, but primarily at the idea that ills like racism are a thing of the past on the road to a better future, that a Jesse Helms is an anachronism not worthy of much attention. The problem is that the next Jesse Helms will be much slicker than the country bumpkin from Union Co. NC to the point we may not recognize him. Especially if his ends match those of our own.

I certainly respect your well-thought out arguments, and I think it's possible to develop a solid ethic that doesn't rely upon appeals to authority.

Robeson played football in Somerville, was an All-American and phi beta kappa, summa and valedictorian at Rutgers and graduated from Columbia University School of Law in the City of New York. While in law school, he played professional football and appeared on Broadway and in London. I suspect someone like Woodrow Wilson would not have liked him to attend Princeton.

I had the pleasure of meeting his son once. A perfect gentleman.

American involvement in WW1 was just and necessary...

Why?

If individual rights rest upon political or social consensus, they are on incredibly shaky ground -- you've largely jettisoned faith in natural rights or a higher power for faith in the religion of Progress.

You say this as if "faith in natural rights" isn't itself shaky ground.

Hmmm...there's not much in this article. I wonder what was really going on here. There's usually a slightly bigger story than "Red Sox fan beats up Yankees fan" (or vice versa) behind the story. There are very few places (whether in New England or New York) where you don't run into the opposite kind of fan at some point so you tend to get used to it.

The incident made me curious because Falmouth is sort of a second home town to me - my grandparents retired there and I spent many summer days in and around that place. Since we first started going down there in the early '80s it's grown by leaps and bounds.

...it's grown by leaps and bounds.

Locals often get ornery in the face of such growth.

I used to hang in Falmouth during my summers in college. It was like Daytona North. The local cops really had their hands full during the summer.

Funny, it never seemed that rowdy to me. Of course where you go as a young kid is somewhat different from where you go as a college student.

I see there had been an altercation between the [alleged] victim and one of the defendant's thread. Not that any of that necessarily justifies what transpired, but there's usually more to these things than "Red Sox fan assaults Yankees fan" suggests.

I see there had been an altercation between the [alleged] victim and one of the defendant's thread. Not that any of that necessarily justifies what transpired, but there's usually more to these things than "Red Sox fan assaults Yankees fan" suggests.

Actually, it appears that the Correja fellow was arrested for beating another potential Yankee fan with a baseball bat the following night.

There are good things to say about Woodrow Wilson.

He was a baseball fan, and played at Davidson and was manager of the team at Princeton.

And we're back to baseball- The circle of life.

Actually, it appears that the Correja fellow was arrested for beating another potential Yankee fan with a baseball bat the following night.

If he's actually hitting people, we know it's not just an alias for Varitek.