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Friday, May 29, 2009

Manley: Greinke: How’s this for HOF credentials?

Z for Zackary…the explosion continues.

Dead Ball vs Live Blood

The other thing that is interesting in looking at these 20 pitchers is that 9 of the 20 are in the first 20 years of the century. It is also true that 9 of the 20 are in the last 20 years. For the 70 years in between, only two pitchers are on this list – Koufax (1963) and Seaver (1971). What’s the explanation?

Well, of course, the “dead ball era” (up to around 1920) covers nine of these. And, the 1960’s - early 70’s were pitcher-dominated as well. So, that explains 11 of the 20 on this list. But, what about the nine in the last 20 seasons?

I call that the “Iive blood era”. Who knows who started taking what and when and how much it improved their performance? Because I don’t know and neither do you, I have no choice except to paint a broad brush over the entire group. It’s doubtful if Saberhagen, as early as 1989, had anything going, but after that you have this inexplicable bunch of historically great pitching performances - despite it being during an era when balls were flying out of the park left and right. If anyone wants to believe that is coincidence or “training”, then I’ve got a bridge to sell you.

Back to Greinke

In any event, those are the stats. Based on ERA, SO/BB ratio and HR’s, Greinke could slip a lot the rest of the season and he still would make it on this list of 20. In fact, average innings pitched being equal, he could go the rest of the season with an ERA of 2.81, 1.1 HR/G and SO/BB ratio of only 3.3 and he would still be in this group of 20 – make that 21.

Repoz Posted: May 29, 2009 at 09:37 AM | 10 comment(s) | Login to Bookmark
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   1. Greg (U)K Posted: May 29, 2009 at 11:58 AM (#3198381)
Wouldn't a more useful/interesting way of looking at this be to look at who has had Greinke's numbers through 2 months of a season?
   2. JRVJ (formerly Delta Socrates) Posted: May 29, 2009 at 12:07 PM (#3198383)
That's interesting, but it's looking at absolute numbers and not numbers relative to his age.

I'm more impressed by the fact that Greinke's ERA+ is 538.

Maddux's 1994 season had him at an ERA+ of 271, Pedro's 2000 season had him at an ERA+ of 291, Gooden's 1985 season had him at 228, Seaver's 1971 season had him at 193, Carlton's 1972 season had him at 182, Clemens' 1998 season had him at 221 (though his 2005 season may have been more impressive, at 226) and Koufax's 1966 season had him at 190.

Conclusion: Greinke has a very, very good shot to have on of the all-time great post WWII seasons, both in relative and in absolute terms.
   3. John DiFool2 Posted: May 29, 2009 at 02:26 PM (#3198560)
He raises a very interesting question (why exactly were Pedro, Clemens, Maddux, and Unit able to dominate so impressively in an otherwise high-offense era), but then resorts to roid innuendo to explain it.
   4. RJ in TO Posted: May 29, 2009 at 02:29 PM (#3198567)
If it wasn't for Greinke, Halladay would be well on his way to picking up his second Cy Young.

Now, absent a colossal implosion, Grienke almost has it wrapped up.
   5. JRVJ (formerly Delta Socrates) Posted: May 29, 2009 at 02:37 PM (#3198585)
Hmmm, John DiFool is right in mentioning the Unit, which I didn't.

His best ERA+ season was 2002, when he had an ERA+ of 197, better than the best seasons by Seaver, Carlton and Koufax, though still behind Pedro, Maddux, Gooden and Clemens for best post WWII season.

(Don't look now, but Johan Santana may well end up having an all-time great season this year too. His best ERA+ is 182 in 2004, and right now he's at 247).
   6. DCA Posted: May 29, 2009 at 02:45 PM (#3198600)
Now, absent a colossal implosion, Grienke almost has it wrapped up.

I'm not so sure. The season isn't even a third over, and Grienke isn't this good. He can still be good going forward and get passed by someone like Halladay, Buerhle, or Verlander (who has been at least as good as Grienke after a crappy 4 start beginning to the season, echoes of Sabathia 08?), or even the large one himself. Especially if one of them gets 20 wins, and/or a playoff birth, and Grienke doesn't.

Given the competition, I say it's less than 50/50 that Grienke gets the CY, even though he's got the best individual chance.
   7. zonk Posted: May 29, 2009 at 03:00 PM (#3198626)
I'm not so sure. The season isn't even a third over, and Grienke isn't this good. He can still be good going forward and get passed by someone like Halladay, Buerhle, or Verlander (who has been at least as good as Grienke after a crappy 4 start beginning to the season, echoes of Sabathia 08?), or even the large one himself. Especially if one of them gets 20 wins, and/or a playoff birth, and Grienke doesn't.


I don't know about that... I mean, to get passed, it seems to me that he would need to be terrible for extended stretch.

I mean, let's say Greinke puts up Daniel Cabera's line thus for the next month and a half...

That puts him at 115 IP, 102 hits, 47 BBs, 97 Ks, 4 homers, 33 ERs... which works out to an unadjusted ERA of 2.58 -- and if my math is right, still an ERA+ of 177.

Think about that for a moment... Greinke could pitch as 'well' as Daniel Cabrera from here till the all-star break and still have an ERA+ of 177.
   8. Cooper Nielson Posted: May 29, 2009 at 03:10 PM (#3198650)
If it wasn't for Greinke, Halladay would be well on his way to picking up his second Cy Young.

It's kind of surprising that Halladay hasn't won his second Cy Young yet. He's basically been the AL's best pitcher over the last seven years, with only one "bad" season thrown in there (ERA+ of 115 in injury-shortened 2004). Every year it seems like he's in the running for the Cy Young, but he's only got one to show for it.

At the same time, he's never really been "robbed." He finished second twice; Johan Santana was unquestionably better than him in 2006 and Cliff Lee had a pretty good argument last year. (Even if you thought Halladay was better, you had to admit that Lee was awfully close, and his numbers were definitely more superficially impressive.)

In 2004 Halladay only made 21 starts, but went 12-4 with a 184 ERA+ and led the league in complete games. In 2002 he went 19-7 with a 158 ERA+, led the league in innings, and only gave up 10 HR. He didn't get a single Cy Young vote either year.

He's at 1.83 "Career Shares" for Cy Young awards so far. Everyone with more Career Shares has won multiple Cy Youngs except for Catfish Hunter and Ron Guidry (one apiece) and Curt Schilling (none). I think he could pass all three of those guys this year even without winning the award.
   9. zonk Posted: May 29, 2009 at 03:17 PM (#3198665)
Without putting too much thought into it, it seems that BBWAA voters don't put nearly the emphasis on team performance when selecting a CYA as they do with MVPs. They seem to have an equal preference for shiny baubles like win totals, but I'm not seeing a lot instances where the team's performance cost a pitcher the CY (unless you consider wins a proxy for team performance).
   10. RJ in TO Posted: May 29, 2009 at 03:23 PM (#3198677)
At the same time, he's never really been "robbed." He finished second twice; Johan Santana was unquestionably better than him in 2006 and Cliff Lee had a pretty good argument last year. (Even if you thought Halladay was better, you had to admit that Lee was awfully close, and his numbers were definitely more superficially impressive.)


Regrettably, I must agree with this. Santana deserved the win over Halladay, and the Cliff Lee/Halladay performances were close enough that I can't really complain about Cliff Lee winning (and, let's face it, regardless of ERA, 22-3 is going to beat 20-11 in the voting 99% of the time).

If it only weren't for that line shot off his leg in 2005, he probably sneaks out that second Cy Young.
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