My immediate reaction on seeing that ad was "I can't believe they'r using the rising sun flag!" I don't know if it will create a stir - it has been a long time - but I thought it was a questionable decision.

I'm not sure how I feel about this one, but do you think Jay would use the same (its been so long) argument if the Cubs flew the Stars & Bars to celebrate the signing of their new left-fielder who happens to be from South Carolina?

Special bonus question, in the race to be the most uselss human being on planet earth, who leads Marriotti or Britney Spears?

Finally, there was another, probably more direct parallel which I might have used to illustrate my first question, would that have been a Godwin?

Please forward all scantrons to the front of your row when the bell rings.

Yellow peril!

A rising-sun flag is more likely to offend non-Japanese Asian Americans, particularly the older ones.

Speaking of the rising sun, it was seen in the east this morning, just as a dumbass Jay Mariotti column was being spotted in the Sun Times.
What an amazing coincidence.

I like the "doesn't bother ME, but it might bother some other folks." Uh huh.

Special bonus question, in the race to be the most uselss human being on planet earth, who leads Marriotti or Britney Spears?

I guess it depends on how you define "useless," but I think this:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=18255087

would argue it's Marriotti in a landslide.

Special bonus question, in the race to be the most uselss human being on planet earth, who leads Marriotti or Britney Spears?

I guess it depends on how you define

human being. Spears would then win.

However, Mariotti may be the most useless hyena in the world.

The rising-sun flag was approved by the Japanese Parliament as an official national symbol in 1999.

Um, no it wasn't. In 1999, the Hinomaru was officially adopted as the national flag of Japan. Believe it or not, Japan did not have an official national flag until then.

The Kyokujitsu-ki ("Rising Sun Flag") is the Naval Ensign. Note that I don't say "was". It was the ensign of the Imperial Navy, and has been the ensign of the Maritime Self-Defense Force (one of America's strongest allies) since its creation in 1954. We're not talking about a symbol of past rebellion, like the Stars and Bars, we're talking about a flag that was never taken out of service (except during the Occupation).

But it also symbolized the Imperial Japanese Army and Navy during World War II, meaning it might offend long-ago enemies of Japan—such as, older U.S. citizens.

I'm not unsympathetic to the gut reactions of veterans who spent considerable time fighting the Japanese for their very lives. But that doesn't mean images of the flag should be avoided in today's world.

I like the "doesn't bother ME, but it might bother some other folks." Uh huh.

I think he's telling the truth when he says it doesn't bother him. Remember who is writing this column. Mariotti doesn't bother to believe in anything he ever says. His modus operundi [sic] has always been to throw rocks at a beehive and hope to cause problems.

Special bonus question, in the race to be the most uselss human being on planet earth, who leads Marriotti or Britney Spears?

Financially, Spears generates a lot more revenue for far more people than Mariotti.

Besides, at this point I think Spears is genuinely mentally ill whereas Mariotti is just a dick. I'll cut the former a bit more slack.

if the Cubs flew the Stars & Bars to celebrate the signing of their new left-fielder who happens to be from South Carolina?

That's a fair question, and an interesting one. However, I don't see why you wouldn't use the American flag for the South Carolina guy. The reason you use the rising sun flag for Fukudome is that he's the first Japanese player in franchise history, and the flag is a symbol of Japan and just Japan. The Confederate flag symbolizes South Carolina and 10 other states.

Also, the Stars & Bars gets even trickier as it symbolizes not only the Civil War, but racial inequality, as made obvious when some southern states decided to incorporate into their state flags during the Civil Rights movement. Racial problems are a bigger concern in 2008 than possible Japanese military aggression.

Still, they should've found something else. Japan has enough historical and cultural significance that the team could've found another symbol without giving Mariotti an excuse for this column.

Still, they should've found something else. Japan has enough historical and cultural significance that the team could've found another symbol without giving Mariotti an excuse for this column.

I doubt there is anyone in the Cubs marketing department who had any idea this would offend anyone. If there is anyone over 40 in that department, he's probably too high up to be vetting every ad that goes into the paper.

"Hey Jeff, I gotta come up with a Fukudome ad. What's the symbol for Japan, you know like their flag or something?"

"I don't know, Jen. Yo Todd, what's on the Sapporo bottle? We could use it for the Fukudome ad.

"I don't know. It's not like I read the label, but don't they have like a rising sun or something?"

"Yeah"

"Yeah, that'll work. I'll get graphics to pull one off the web."

Two days later after seeing Marriotti column

Jen, Jeff & Todd (in unison): "When the hell were we at war with Japan?"

Also, the Stars & Bars gets even trickier as it symbolizes not only the Civil War, but racial inequality, as made obvious when some southern states decided to incorporate into their state flags during the Civil Rights movement. Racial problems are a bigger concern in 2008 than possible Japanese military aggression.

I thought that the rising sun flag was interpretted by some East Asians as a symbol of the WWII-era "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere" and its implicit racism.

Special bonus question, in the race to be the most uselss human being on planet earth, who leads Marriotti or Britney Spears?

Did Paris Hilton die and I missed it?

Did Paris Hilton die and I missed it

You might have, apparently during her viewing some cameraman got a beaver shot and that is all everybody has been talking about since.

Idiots like Mariotti are the reason all Asians in major American cinema are either ninjas or some other type of mystic.

The ad didn't faze me

Seriously, if I shot Jay Mariotti, is there a judge in the world that would hold it against me?

I doubt there is anyone in the Cubs marketing department who had any idea this would offend anyone.

It's unclear to me that it has offended anyone.

I can't stand this "I'm not offended by this of course, but what about X?" mudraking. Show the ad to veterans of the Burma Railway, and if they are offended more than, say, by the Hinomaru, then maybe there's a point. Of course, the flag's connection to WWII may bother Japanese folks, offended by the gratuitous connection between Fukudome's Japanese origins and a horrible war. Or maybe not.

I think the ad represents a banal but very mild form of bad taste, but so do a lot of things.

Got one foot on the platform
The other foot on the train
I'm going back to New Orleans
To wear that ball and chain

Well, there's a difference between "I'm not offended by this, but someone probably is" speculation and actual empathetic expertise that allows you to correct anticipate and accommodate for others' reactions.

In other words, there's a difference between "That's outrageous, Martians might be pissed off!" and "I'm not black, but using fried chicken and watermelon for your grammar examples is probably not a good idea..."

In this case, I'd argue it's closer to the latter, and the only reason it seems different is that mainstream society is more intentional about understanding anti-African American imagery than anti-Asian American imagery.

In this case, I'd argue it's closer to the latter, and the only reason it seems different is that mainstream society is more intentional about understanding anti-African American imagery than anti-Asian American imagery.

Images are also incredibly loaded and fraught with meaning. Almost any image representing a person's ethnicity is going to be some kind of shorthand, a stereotype that may be offensive to someone. If you wanted a graphic to indicate a player's black ancestry, what could you possibly use? A picture of Africa? A trumpet playing jazz? A black panther? Just about everything I can think of could be pretty offensive. A white player would be even weirder - a pumpkin pie? A guy in liederhosen playing an accordian?

Other than a commonly accepted flag to indicate nationality, I'm not sure there'd be a good image for Fukudome, either. A samurai? A picture of the country? Those are kind of lame. I don't know.

A samurai? A picture of the country?

Speed Racer. :)

They could have done an anime type of thing. Slightly stereotypical, but not really a negative stereotype. Would probably have looked cool.

Why didn't they just use the standard I cut my face shaving flag? I guess the Rising Sun one looks cooler. Of course my roomate asked during Letters From Iwo Jima (I even watched it this week) what that flag was.

They can use it for a celebration of 70 years since the rape of Nanking too.

Other than a commonly accepted flag to indicate nationality, I'm not sure there'd be a good image for Fukudome, either. A samurai? A picture of the country? Those are kind of lame. I don't know.

What about a giant middle finger coming out the old Astrodome?

Other than a commonly accepted flag to indicate nationality, I'm not sure there'd be a good image for Fukudome, either. A samurai? A picture of the country? Those are kind of lame. I don't know.

A Nintendo DS.

A white player would be even weirder - a pumpkin pie? A guy in liederhosen playing an accordian?

Either this or this.

Other than a commonly accepted flag to indicate nationality, I'm not sure there'd be a good image for Fukudome, either. A samurai? A picture of the country? Those are kind of lame. I don't know.

A small penis?

A guy in liederhosen playing an accordian?

That's easy -- a slice of Wonder Bread and a jar of Mayonnaise

Yeah, I think #10 hit it. Being a huge WW2 buff I'm always shocked at people's lack of knowledge. I'm not an old fart either, having just turned 30. So, I can imagine some ad guys in their 20's thinking how #######' an idea this was. You'd think someone a long the way woulda been like, 'Uhm...maybe we should talk about this'.

rising sun and japan have been linked together for quite some time now. Hell, they made a movie with Sean Connery with the name Rising Sun where they depict Japanese people as these Machivellian puppet masters, they made a medal of honor game entitled Rising Sun in which you run around killing Japanese people or run around as Japanese people killing white people. This shouldn't be a big deal.

Other than a commonly accepted flag to indicate nationality, I'm not sure there'd be a good image for Fukudome, either. A samurai? A picture of the country? Those are kind of lame. I don't know.

Nothing. Does Andruw Jones get something at Dodger stadium this year to celebrate him being from Curacao?

"That's easy -- a slice of Wonder Bread and a jar of Mayonnaise"

How about a saltine?

Does Andruw Jones get something at Dodger stadium this year to celebrate him being from Curacao?

I don't know about Andruw and the Dodgers but I know the Phillies would try to drum up support in the latino market by marketing their latin players to that group.

If Curacao had 160 million citizens and a rather large satellite/cable industry I'm quite sure the Dodgers would play up his geographical background.

It is kind of a big deal because that flag has all kinds of pretty horrific imperial connotations. Maybe not to 90% of our country, but to a big chunk of east Asia it does. Whereas the US has made good with Japan and there's been a healing process, that hasn't happened at all (ie China) or very little (ie the Koreas).

Now, it's not as if the Japanese gov't is doing this obviously. Like I said earlier, poor taste by the Cubs but they're not guilty of much more than that I think.

How about a saltine?

That's for pregnant players.

That's a good point, and I certainly don't blame them. It was just a dumb*** way to go about it is all.

This is just silly. Why couldn't they just use the regular national flag of Japan? The rising sun flag is specifically a military flag, while the hinomaru flag eepresents the entire country. If they signed a British player, would they use the White Ensign instead of the Union Jack?

If Curacao had 160 million citizens

I just laughed thinking of 160M people trying to fit onto Curacao.

When is the obvious joke about the French battle flag coming?

"Why couldn't they just use the regular national flag of Japan?"

Fukudome would cover up the red bit.

It's not like they want people to think he's French...

"When is the obvious joke about the French battle flag coming?"

############. You couldn't have waited 30 seconds?

If they signed a British player, would they use the White Ensign instead of the Union Jack?

You mean the flag that those imperialists dogs of England flew on their bows as they pillaged and plundered the globe?

"would they use the White Ensign"

I fail to see what Wesley Crusher has to do with the situation.

No big deal here. But I also have no issue with Colonel Rebel.

if the Cubs flew the Stars & Bars to celebrate the signing of their new left-fielder who happens to be from South Carolina?

That's a fair question, and an interesting one. However, I don't see why you wouldn't use the American flag for the South Carolina guy. The reason you use the rising sun flag for Fukudome is that he's the first Japanese player in franchise history, and the flag is a symbol of Japan and just Japan. The Confederate flag symbolizes South Carolina and 10 other states.

Also, the Stars & Bars gets even trickier as it symbolizes not only the Civil War, but racial inequality, as made obvious when some southern states decided to incorporate into their state flags during the Civil Rights movement. Racial problems are a bigger concern in 2008 than possible Japanese military aggression.

Still, they should've found something else. Japan has enough historical and cultural significance that the team could've found another symbol without giving Mariotti an excuse for this column.

Anybody else reminded of when Randy Hundley used to play for the Cubs? In those less PC times the Stars and Bars were displayed on a regular basis at at Wrigley.

Mariotti is a ####### retard. Is it possible that he do any sort of research before he spews this inane #### from his addled brain?

And yeah I know Mariotti is just reporting what bloggers are saying but he is still a ####### retard.

You might have, apparently during her viewing some cameraman got a beaver shot and that is all everybody has been talking about since.

I'll take--What do Paris Hilton's ... er loins and the sign outside of every McDonalds have in common for $800 Alex.

Best Regards

John

This is interesting

More GIS reveals rising sun guitars, t-shirts, bicycle helmets, swimsuits, ballcaps, etc.

As someone who started this discussion in ignorance, it doesn't seem like this is a controversial symbol in the general public eye.

A similar GIS search for Confederate Flag brings up some less innocuous results (and granted a few fairly harmless ones in isolation).

Surely there are bigger things to be upset about? Like lack of health insurance in this country, a BS war in Iraq, why your mommies
treated you like little panty-waste school girls. Sorry boys, I just don't see it with this Fuku ad thing. It's an ad intended to celebrate what makes the f-ing country great. A country where any foreigner with a talent can come over an be part of the greatest game on earth and make fat money doing it. We love our foreigners when can lay one down, or go long, or rally when all odds are against, but show their home flag? Such a double standard in this country.

rising sun and japan have been linked together for quite some time now.

Well, it has been the ruin of many a poor boy, and God, I know I'm one.


(16 may have been too subtle).

To add to 47, there was a minor controvery over the cover of Robert Whiting's last book about Japanese players coming to MLB. But ultimately too few care about depictions of the rising sun flag because of how long ago Japan's imperialism occurred and the image of Japan as a victim rather than the aggressor of the war.

Now, it's not as if the Japanese gov't is doing this obviously. Like I said earlier, poor taste by the Cubs but they're not guilty of much more than that I think.

Let's look at it this way: Just yesterday MLB execs were quoted crowing about their plans for tapping the Chinese market.

People here have made some good points about the relative levels of offense we should all feel about this, but we can expect the Chinese to feel a bit differntly about it, no? In that case, you'd have to agree that the poster was ill advised for bad business sense, even if the rising sun doesn't angry up your blood on a personal level.

People here have made some good points about the relative levels of offense we should all feel about this, but we can expect the Chinese to feel a bit differntly about it, no?

This is silly. The rape of Nanking looms large over this discussion? If somebody from China has a problem with this because of some Japanese flag then somebody from China is going to have a problem with us hyping a Japanese player period.

The rising sun isn't some swastika like symbol that one malevolent hate group created as their symbol. Yes bad things happened while that flag flew, but guess what, bad things happened while the Union Jack flew, while the stars and stripes flew, and yes even while the Red Flag flew. Should we worry about doing Capt America pictorials for Derek Jeter in case somebody from China gets pissed off because their ancestors got wiped out in the Boxer Rebellion or hooked on opium because of it?

The rising sun isn't some swastika like symbol that one malevolent hate group created as their symbol.

The Nazis didn't create the swastika - it's one of the world's oldest symbols, used by many civilizations, from South American natives to Celts.

really it is? Gosh I never knew that, well, that just makes my whole point moot.

Or I guess when I say "swastika like" and some maleveloent hate group created it I mean that the rising sun wasn't some creation created by evil people but by a government body that was formed long before all the "bad" things happened. The Nazi flag was created by the Nazi's to symbolize their group. You cannot say that the Rising Sun was created by Japanese war criminals to symbolize their atrocities 60 years after they created it.

Oh mother tell your children
Not to do what I have done
Spend your lives in sin and misery
In the House of the Rising Sun

Also, since the discussion is moving on to swastikas...

Or I guess when I say "swastika like" and some maleveloent hate group created it I mean that the rising sun wasn't some creation created by evil people but by a government body that was formed long before all the "bad" things happened. The Nazi flag was created by the Nazi's to symbolize their group. You cannot say that the Rising Sun was created by Japanese war criminals to symbolize their atrocities 60 years after they created it.

But it's not the Nazi flag that has the negative connotation now, it's the swastika. Do you think of you graffiti-ed a swastika on a building, it wouldn't be offensive unless you make it in a white circle on a red field? Now, make a Nazi flag without the swastika. Would anybody be offended by it without the swastika?

The fact is, the Nazis hijacked a symbol and turned into something with a very negative connotation to society. The Rising Sun was also turned into something with a very negative connotation to society. It's not unreasonable for someone with bad memories of World War II to be upset about seeing the Rising Sun.

I'm not saying it should be illegal or something, but just like I wouldn't want display of the Confederate flag to be illegal, I would certainly understand why a section of people would take great offense to it.

Could you understand if somebody would take great offense to the stars and stripe?

As for the Nazi flag yes it is the Nazi flag that people are against. A lone swastika is simply a shortened version of it. Saying a red field and white circle wouldn't be offensive is silly. That is like insulting someone in a foreign language and saying it isn't offensive because they can't understand you.

The rising sun was a flag that symbolized a country or one of its functions. The swastika was the symbol for a political hate group who then used it for the country that they took over. Does the old black, white, and red German flag mean evil and oppression? Bad things happened under it as well and yet the German people were free to use it and I don't think somebody would say "hey that flag is offensive to me".

Japan when they had they created the rising sun flag and for many decades after were a lawful state. The Nazi Flag and the Stars and Bars to virtually everybody was flown by states that were "unlawful". If Hitler had come to power and did what he did but never used the Nazi symbolism for Germany would the Black, Red, and White or Black, REd and Gold) symbolize everything that the swastika does?

Could you understand if somebody would take great offense to the stars and stripe?

Yes.

Would you feel the need to change it? Would you take down the stars and stripes from your porch because somebody in the next town over is offended?

Would you feel the need to change it? Would you take down the stars and stripes from your porch because somebody in the next town over is offended?

Personally, I'm not sure I'd ever put up any flag in the first place - symbols are nothing but trouble!

Personally, I'm not sure I'd ever put up any flag in the first place - symbols are nothing but trouble!

I wouldn't wear an Orioles cap, either, Dan.

This is silly. The rape of Nanking looms large over this discussion? If somebody from China has a problem with this because of some Japanese flag then somebody from China is going to have a problem with us hyping a Japanese player period.

I don't think that's necessarily a fair leap. China, to my knowledge, does not object to the very existence of Japanese people. A good bunch of Chinese probably do object to the rising sun flag, and I would hope that you can appreciate the difference between those two things whether you share the view or not.

That said, I'm not offering a judgment as to the reasonableness of Chinese offense or lack thereof to the flag. Maybe it's 100% unreasonable. But you can imagine, can you not, that given what we know about the Chinese, the offense is there all the same, at least in some quarters. In light of that, if I'm MLB, and I'm making a big show about wanting to expand into China, don't I err on the side of caution and NOT run that kind of ad?

So, I can imagine some ad guys in their 20's thinking how #######' an idea this was.

Does anyone remember that great book by Jerry Della Femina, based on a "proposed ad" for Panasonic:

"From those Wonderful Folks who Brought You Pearl Harbor"

So the chinese are just against the flag? The flag was and still is the symbol of Japan. That is like saying the star of David offends me, but those jewish people are great. Or those Muslims are great but I don't want to see any crescent moon anywhere because muslim terrorists crashed into a building.

Or how about the fact that the flag that Japan is used in WWII is still the national flag?

So the chinese are just against the flag?

No, they (and Korea) are complaining that Japan has fallen far short in accepting any responsibilty for the atrocities they committed. And continuing to teach japanese children a slanted and basically incorrect history of the war.

Which has nothing to do with the rising sun flag in America.