Too easy.

But challenging them publicly to pee in a cup, that's classy. Thanks, Jay!!

That was Reilly, not Marriotti.

In fairness, Mariotti is an expert on bad journalism.

I think he has point, but man is he a dick about it. Also, pointing to Selena Roberts as some bastion of journalism is dumb, and sort of invalidates what he says (at least to me). The old media is so interested in protecting itself... but that's why bloggers exist!

Selena Roberts is an example of "legitimate journalism" and "fine work"? Wow.

I think he has point, but man is he a dick about it. Also, pointing to Selena Roberts as some bastion of journalism is dumb, and sort of invalidates what he says (at least to me). The old media is so interested in protecting itself... but that's why bloggers exist!

He has a point that steroid guessing is bad journalism. He just ignores that paid journalists do it all the time.

poop.

Oops. Thanks, Randy. So when does he call for Reilly to be fired?

...Predictably, Morris made a fool of himself during a panel discussion on ESPN’s Outside The Lines. Like many bloggers, he came off as someone who hasn’t been properly trained to grasp libel law. Of course, the Internet is the Wild, Wild West and doesn’t punish abusers for libeling people.

A real journalist, Jay, would have read the original blog entry and realized the blogger wasn't accusing Ibanez of roiding.

Sports are just play time but I think I might kick Mariotti right in the balls if I ever met him. I swear to god I could write a better sports column than Mariotti tomorrow if someone hired me and I don't say that to flatter myself.

Ooh, a pinata with the candy on the outside.

all the fine work done by legitimate journalists

Stop it! You're killing me!

So does Jay Mariotti know libel law?

I don't think anyone here is a fan of Mariotti, but for the people here who never bother to read the actual article beyond the snippets at the top of the page, he did write this:

Because the Internet is a gateway to everyone, bloggers have a place in this new media world. I've seen plenty of good ones who apply the principles that will win them credibility for years. I've also seen plenty of bad ones who have no conscience and don't belong anywhere near a keyboard. And the problem involves more than bloggers. Recently, an ancient columnist named Rick Telander suggested in the Chicago Sun-Times that Cubs shortstop Ryan Theriot's early power burst should send up red flags. "Sorry, Ryan Theriot, you're a suspect,'' he opened his column. "Forget Manny Ramirez and Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds and Jason Giambi and Mark McGwire and all the other hulking, accused performance-enhancing drug users. You, sir, all 5-11, 175 pounds of you, are doing devious things.''

Basically, Telander was no different than blogging boy Jerod Morris -- speculating based on numbers, not facts. And if he was being sarcastic, he picked the wrong topic; this one is way too sensitive. My guess is, Telander was trying too hard to get attention in a death-warmed-over newspaper.

And what was Jerry Crowe of the Los Angeles Times thinking when he wrote, "Thanks to Ramirez, Alex Rodriguez, Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa, etc., fans outside St. Louis must wonder, 'Do we celebrate Albert Pujols or suspect him?' ... Pujols has batted four times with the bases loaded this season and three times has hit grand slams ... In his only other at-bat with the bases loaded, the St. Louis Cardinals slugger delivered a two-run single ... Sadly, it makes you wonder.''

Whatever Mariotti may have said about bloggers prior to this, here he's not lumping them together, and he's not painting MSM writers as saints.

Journalists: Mariotti is Bad Journalism

So does Jay Mariotti know libel law?

I'm guessing not, if he thinks no one "has the right, legally or ethically, to start speculating for public consumption just because he has a functioning computer," while applauding the "fine work" done by "legitimate journalist" Selena Roberts.

Sorry Andy. Can't RTFA in this case because I refuse to click on the link.

(H)e's not painting MSM writers as saints.

I don't think that many of the guys in Chicago press corps are on the invite list for the big 4th picnic at the Mariotti Hacienda. Or vice versa. IIRC, the basic reaction when he resigned was "Good riddance!"

(H)e's not painting MSM writers as saints.

He is painting himself as one, though.

Or vice versa. IIRC, the basic reaction when he resigned was "Good riddance!"

Actually, "Good riddance" was one of the nicer reactions to his departure. A lot of them, including Ebert, went out of their way to rip on him - it seems that he'd put in a lot of effort over the years into finding ways to alienate people.

The lesson as always: Jay Mariotti is just an awful, awful person.

he's not painting MSM writers as saints

He is however denigrating a blogger for no good reason. refer back to Shooty in #10. Mariotti is ripping on Morris for something Morris didn't do.



also:

Predictably, Morris made a fool of himself during a panel discussion on ESPN’s Outside The Lines.

Mariotti apparently watched some special version of OTL that the rest of us didn't, because Morris in no way made a fool of himself.

Do millions of people really visit Fanhouse?

The lesson as always: Jay Mariotti is just an awful, awful person.

This is an insult to awful, awful persons everywhere.

A lot of them, including Ebert, went out of their way to rip on him - it seems that he'd put in a lot of effort over the years into finding ways to alienate people.

Right. I assume that 99 44/100ths of the ink stained wretches aren't that wretched.

Sorry Andy. Can't RTFA in this case because I refuse to click on the link.

More people should take this stance. If you don't like a website or a column(ist), don't promote them by viewing their stuff. Site hits are gold to these people. Take away their gold. It's why I actively avoid espn.com.

I am one of the fortunate ones. Twelve months a year, I’m paid to dispense information and opinions on a major Web site read by millions, not to mention a major TV network watched by millions. I don’t have to STRRRRRETTTTCCH THE TRUTH or make something up to be noticed as a columnist.

He's talking about ESPN, right? Their 4:30-6 PM blocks are chock full of quasi-journalists who routinely "STRRRRRETTTTCCH THE TRUTH or make something up" along with yelling and screaming at each other. And Jim Rome.

The only difference between a journalist and a blogger is a piece of paper from a credible college. Unfortunately, many bloggers (not including myself) have similar pieces of paper but for more important endeavors.

I used to be a journalism major. I got absolutely nothing out of it, and could have learned just as much via Wikipedia. There is, really, nothing extensive to learn about the "industry". It's a giant gray area and it shades more towards black or more towards white depending on who's involved and who has more money (or, at least, who can afford better lawyers).

Lastly, I don't get why journalists want bloggers to be held up to the same standards. That would make journalists entirely insignificant! Why go to college and earn a Bachelor's to report on baseball's steroid issues when I can just go to Blogger.com? Journalists should want bloggers to have as lax standards as possible so that they contrast favorably to them.

Seeing this link posted on BTW was just a weird experience for me all around. Seeing the headline and thinking "now that sounds reasonable..." double-checking the byline and thinking "I couldn't possibly agree with something Mariotti says about journalists..." and then the Bizarro-world points he makes in the excerpt, citing Selena Roberts as a bastion of responsible journalism and bashing Morris' piece (which he didn't read). Finally followed by the bigger excerpt posted in #14, which makes abundantly clear that Mariotti has missed the point painfully in Morris' piece, Telander's, and to a lesser extent Crowe's - that point being precisely that because of all the innuendo, finger-pointing, baseless speculation and so forth that is tirelessly published by the MSM, exemplified by no person more purely than Roberts herself - we find ourselves in a situation where everything becomes questionable.

Ryan Theriot's early power burst

I was watching a Rays/Mets game recently and the guy I was watching with said, "I think Jason Bartlett is on steroids." I am surprised there has not been more spec about Bartlett, but maybe I missed it.

It's a giant gray area and it shades more towards black or more towards white depending on who's involved and who has more money (or, at least, who can afford better lawyers).

I think you just described corporate America.

I think you just described corporate America.

Well, yeah.

Whatever Mariotti may have said about bloggers prior to this, here he's not lumping them together, and he's not painting MSM writers as saints.

The passage you cited is not an example of Mariotti's consistent application of standards. It's his using the issue as a tidy cudgel against the Sun-Times. Telander was, by my reading, obviously being sarcastic to make a point.

Anyhow, it's always amusing to see Mariotti stick up for the old-school ethos when he doesn't have the sack to, as Dick Young put it, "write that a guy's full of #### and then face him the next day."

Anyhow, it's always amusing to see Mariotti stick up for the old-school ethos when he doesn't have the sack to, as Dick Young put it, "write that a guy's full of #### and then face him the next day."

Good point, and don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to defend Mariotti in general, only the limited point that at least in this column, he wasn't reducing the issue to virtuous MSM writers vs. heathen bloggers; he did name specific exceptions on both sides.

And with that, I'm through defending Mariotti. I've done my noble deed for the day, and like most everyone else, I fully realize that his overall body of work is pathetic in nearly every respect.

Mariotti: Steroid Guessing Is Bad Journalism

Whereas steroid ignoring, steroid pooh-poohing, steroid exaggerating, steroid shrieking, and bemoaning the lack of response to their steroid shrieking... that's Pulitzer material.

And Jim Rome.

Obligatory.

Meanwhile, the real professionals will keep pounding on the amateurs.

I associate this with the internet too... but not with journalists.

I used to be a journalism major. I got absolutely nothing out of it, and could have learned just as much via Wikipedia. There is, really, nothing extensive to learn about the "industry". It's a giant gray area and it shades more towards black or more towards white depending on who's involved and who has more money (or, at least, who can afford better lawyers).

I've seen you post something along these lines before, and I just want to comment on that general sentiment. I'm a journalism major, and I feel like I've gotten plenty out of it. That doesn't mean you need a journalism degree to be a journalist or learn to practice journalism (especially in the same sense that, say, an engineer needs an engineering degree), but I don't see why there isn't anything useful about a journalism education, provided, like all educations, that it's a quality one. I don't know where you went or what they tried to teach you, but legitimate reporting skills can't be found anywhere on Wikipedia. That's the value of a journalism education, I think. Anyone can write anything, and there will be good writers and bad writers. You don't need journalism to teach you how to write, but reporting is a different beast. Again, that doesn't mean you need the degree, it's something you can certainly learn to do on the job, but that doesn't mean the education itself is valueless. Especially when we're talking about more important things than sports.

I think if the article was written verbatim by Joe Posnanski rather than Mariotti, we'd all be praising it.

Really, there are only three things with which I take issue. Foremost, Mariotti's view that "[t]he irresponsibility began three years ago when blogger Will Leitch wrote on a Web site that he had '80 percent' faith in a source who said a Kansas City-based strength and conditioning coach was one of the redacted names in the Jason Grimsley report." This witch-hunt has gone on for over a decade and Leitch certainly wasn't the first to make an unfounded accusation.

Outside of that, his unwarranted support for Selena Roberts and his own history of making outlandish accusations also deserve ridicule, but by and large I think Mariotti has a justifiable rant.

Too bad he didn't make it about 6 years ago.

I think if the article was written verbatim by Joe Posnanski rather than Mariotti, we'd all be praising it.

Is there anyway that Pos would write something like that though? isn't the reason that we praise him is he does a great job of straddling the fences and providing good insight without praising stuff like Selena Roberts?

Mariotti has a point or two in his blog post, but the tone of it, and the fact that he missed many points because he has an ego problem which means he is refusing to reduce his blog to the level of an established blogger by reading the actual posts.

You guys do know that Mariotti has a longstanding beef with Telander right? I wouldn't praise him for cynically trying to score points with bloggers to score a blow in an old grudge as anything more than well, a cheap shot at a guy who actually still has an editor and a cynical attempt to pander.

Jay Mariotti is a ####### idiot. He is the quintessential "old media" pompous lazy jackass that the new media has made irreverent. The demise of his career almost makes me not lament how far newspapers and actual reporting has fallen.

I've also seen plenty of bad ones who have no conscience and don't belong anywhere near a keyboard

so he does read his stuff. I have often wondered.

Sorry Andy. Can't RTFA in this case because I refuse to click on the link.

thank you, thank you. More people should practice this restraint. I too refused to click the link.

I think if the article was written verbatim by Joe Posnanski rather than Mariotti, we'd all be praising it.

If Poz had written this I'd wonder to which of his family members the kidnappers sent the ransom note.