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Sunday, April 05, 2009

McCarron: As Derek Jeter enters his 14th opener, questions swirl around Yankee captain

A long time Yankee fan and hardcore Jeter supporter said to me today (after watching yet another catchable ball drain into CF)...“This is going to end badly…and the end is ####### near.”

Despite swirling questions, many in baseball still admire Jeter. And the Yankees don’t have anyone ready to replace him. Would leather wunderkind Ramiro Pena be an upgrade defensively? Perhaps, but do you really want someone who has yet to play above Double-A fielding a grounder with the tying run on third against the Red Sox instead of the team’s captain, the man who once plunged into the stands after a remarkable catch against Boston and emerged with blood pouring down his face?

“The Yankees better re-sign Jeter,” says Tom Giordano, a scout for the Rangers who has worked in baseball for 61 years. “Where are they going to get a shortstop who can do the things he can, even though he’s a step slower? His bat is still as alive as it ever was. He’s got knowledge and guts and I don’t pay any attention to criticism of him. He’s still at the centerpiece of that club’s ability to win. I wonder how many clubs in baseball would pass up on him? The Red Sox wouldn’t, I’ll tell you that right now.”

“Jeter will do anything to win,” adds Bowa, a former Yankee coach. “To this day, of all the players I played with, all the players I managed or coached, he’d be the guy I’d want up there in the ninth inning of an important game.”

Repoz Posted: April 05, 2009 at 04:06 AM | 36 comment(s) | Login to Bookmark
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1. Tripon Posted: April 05, 2009 at 05:06 AM (#3124584)

Er, wow. He's 35. Other than Omar Visquel, who gets to keep on playing short stop in their late 30's?

2. Alex meets the threshold for granular review Posted: April 05, 2009 at 05:22 AM (#3124589)

Ozzie Smith won the last of his 13 consecutive Gold Gloves at the age of 37 and was effective until the end, but then again, Ozzie Smith was the greatest ####### fielder in the history of baseball.

3. Eddie Gaedel Posted: April 05, 2009 at 05:36 AM (#3124593)

Blood pouring down his face? Really? It's been a while, but I remember more of a bad-shaving-cut-type trickle.

But I'm 34, and my physical/mental skills aren't as good as they were only a few short years ago.

4. Harry Balsagne's transparent jealousy

Posted: April 05, 2009 at 05:49 AM (#3124595)

Blood pouring down his face? Really? It's been a while, but I remember more of a bad-shaving-cut-type trickle.

I remember them having to extract his nose from his left ear. He then hit four consecutive home runs, delivered a baby in the stands, and later nailed the entire waitstaff of a Hooters.

5. Baldrick Posted: April 05, 2009 at 06:00 AM (#3124596)

Jeter will do anything to win

Jeter will do anything to win...but he won't do that.

6. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: April 05, 2009 at 06:13 AM (#3124599)

On a hot summer night, would you offer your throat to the wolf with the range that decomposes?

7. Jeff K. Posted: April 05, 2009 at 06:17 AM (#3124601)

later nailed the entire waitstaff of a Hooters.

Thereby producing Matt Wieters.

8. mashimaro Posted: April 05, 2009 at 06:45 AM (#3124608)

I'll take Pujols as my hitter, thanks.

9. Halofan Posted: April 05, 2009 at 09:36 AM (#3124617)

swirl? SWIRL? S W I R L ?

10. tl; dr (Voxter)

Posted: April 05, 2009 at 10:57 AM (#3124626)

DEREK JETER IS THE WORST!!!!!

11. TVerik, AKA Snoopy Snoopy Poop Dog Posted: April 05, 2009 at 11:12 AM (#3124631)

I was reading Bobby Murcer's book, and Jeter wrote the forward. He went out of his way to say that it was his childhood dream to play for the Yankees, and specifically to play shortstop (which he called the "coolest position on the field") for the Yankees. Makes me worried in a new way that he's not going to give up that position easily.

12. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: April 05, 2009 at 11:18 AM (#3124632)

but then again, Ozzie Smith was the greatest ####### fielder in the history of baseball.

I know I'm going to be mocked for even asking, but presuming that Jeter's next couple of years aren't total wrecks and that he reaches 3000 hits, who will have had the more impressive, valuable career: Ozzie Smith or Derek Jeter?

*ducks*

13. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 05, 2009 at 11:53 AM (#3124636)

Zuvella, why do you think that that's a controversial question? I think it's a good one. The defensive wizard whose only skill at the plate was a not horrible on-base percentage, vs. the outstanding hitter who was generally considered poor defensively.

14. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: April 05, 2009 at 12:00 PM (#3124638)

WJ, although I lurk at this site a lot and I'm a huge baseball fan, I have a relatively narrow view of the history of the game and a pretty poor grasp of statistics. I really love the Hall of Merit discussions here because they constantly challenge my assumptions about certain players. Jeter, of course, is a player who is (it seems at least) consistently called over-rated here and other places on the Internets. And yet, there seems to be general agreement that he's a first ballot HoFer. I have no idea how Ozzie Smith is viewed in this community or elsewhere. I grew up in the 80's and Ozzie Smith had this legendary status among the baseball fans I knew. We were in NYC, but Ozzie was still almost mythical among us. I've always wondered if he deserved such reverence. My guess is yes.

15. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: April 05, 2009 at 12:03 PM (#3124640)

And, WJ, I'm also asking because of the obvious very different qualities of their games.

16. TVerik, AKA Snoopy Snoopy Poop Dog Posted: April 05, 2009 at 12:07 PM (#3124641)

I think that when the Jeter-love from the moment fades, statisticians will look at his easily measurable numbers (offensive ones) with widened eyes. Ozzie's main contributions will be heralded by lyrical columnists, but unless defensive statistics take a leap in acceptance, I think fifty years from now, Jeter will be heralded as an all-time great and Ozzie as a bit of a curiosity.

I think we're already seeing the first bit of the back-backlash in that when the MSM gets a bit anti-Jeter, the statistically inclined start to defend him. I think "we" are a bit contrarian.

17. GotowarMissAgnes Posted: April 05, 2009 at 12:39 PM (#3124649)

It's easy to get the wrong impression about Jeter here, Zuvella, because there's no doubt a lot gets posted here in reaction to the MSM, where Jeter is over-rated. But, I think in less heated moments, most people here would rate Jeter among the all-time greats at SS. He's not in the top 3, probably, but I don't think anyone would exclude him from the best 10 SS ever.

18. Jose Can You Seabiscuit Posted: April 05, 2009 at 12:44 PM (#3124653)

I think we're already seeing the first bit of the back-backlash in that when the MSM gets a bit anti-Jeter, the statistically inclined start to defend him. I think "we" are a bit contrarian.

I think you're right about the contrarian issue. Beyond that though is the fact that the MSM, particularly columnists, live in a world of black and white. Cal Ripken is wonderful, Albert Belle is horrible, Derek Jeter is a team player, Manny Ramirez is a selfish bastard. As with all things, baseball is mostly shades of grey so when the MSM goes from "Jeter is the best shortstop ever!" to "Jeter is killing the Yankees!" their need to live on the edges of the discussion makes them wrong on both counts.

19. Misirlou's got a busy day, he's wearing a vest Posted: April 05, 2009 at 12:47 PM (#3124656)

The defensive wizard whose only skill at the plate was a not horrible on-base percentage,

That sells him a bit short. Over his 19 year career he was 9 points better than the league OBP. That's quite a bit better than not horrible. It's better than Ryne Sandberg, Ivan Rodriguez, and Cal Ripken.

20. The importance of being Ernest Riles Posted: April 05, 2009 at 01:05 PM (#3124668)

Just as a starting point, Sean Smith has Ozzie at 67.6 WAR over 19 years and Jeter at 62.4 over 14 years. Jeter is likely to surpass Ozzie in career WAR and was certainly a more valuable player on a rate basis.

21. jingoist Posted: April 05, 2009 at 02:00 PM (#3124696)

How does Jeter compare to Ripken?
Cal was certainly seen as an above average hitter and an above average fielder for SS; he was a slam dunk HoFer for his streak and his 20 years 3000+ hits.
Granted Cal got moved to 3rd at age 35, Derek's age this year, but I beleive we can compare Cal's 17 years at SS with Jeters.

22. frannyzoo Posted: April 05, 2009 at 02:11 PM (#3124705)

Jeter's top comp at BR is still Barry Larkin. And I don't hear talk of a slam-dunk, Top 10 ever HOF candidacy for Larkin. Meanwhile, one wonders what the Yankees would have been like with Larkin instead of Jeter all these years.

P.S.: If someone with an eye to decipher BF fielding ratings could give me a Jeter/Larkin fielding comparison (using the BF numbers), I'd appreciate it.

23. TVerik, AKA Snoopy Snoopy Poop Dog Posted: April 05, 2009 at 02:18 PM (#3124710)

Enrique Wilson would have gotten a lot of PT at shortstop if the Yankees had been with a Prime Larkin. The rate stats make it look closer, but you have to take raw numbers into account. In five fewer seasons, Jeter has more PAs than Barry already.

I like Larkin. If he was able to stay on the field, I think he'd be a slam-dunk guy. As it is, I think he's richly deserving, but flawed. Jeter can be Larkin plus if he plays for a few more relatively productive years.

24. frannyzoo Posted: April 05, 2009 at 02:32 PM (#3124721)

Good point on Jeter v. Larkin PAs, TVerik. Looking Larkin's career over, the heel injury in '97 was huge. Coming off a 154 OPS+, 33 HR/36 SB year he plays only 73 games. I know Larkin was out quite a bit over the years, but giving him another 80 games that '97 year would have changed both the numbers and HOF perception of Larkin overall quite a bit, methinks.

25. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: April 05, 2009 at 02:55 PM (#3124739)

Granted Cal got moved to 3rd at age 35, Derek's age this year, but I beleive we can compare Cal's 17 years at SS with Jeters.

Ripken played 158 games at SS in his age 35 season. He played 14 full seasons at SS, plus a little more than half of his rookie year. Assuming health, this will be Jeter's 14th full season at SS, defensive limitations notwithstanding. So the comparison is perhaps even closer than you were thinking. Ripken and Larkin both had decent enough age 35 years, and neither did all that much after.

26. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: April 05, 2009 at 02:58 PM (#3124743)

I remember them having to extract his nose from his left ear. He then hit four consecutive home runs, delivered a baby in the stands

if you watch the replay, you'll see that he actually delivered the baby on the field, THEN dove into the stands

27. Lassus: Posted: April 05, 2009 at 03:15 PM (#3124761)

THEN dove into the stands

If he did it today, would he miss the seats?

28. Obi One Kenobi Nil (BFFB)

Posted: April 05, 2009 at 04:08 PM (#3124786)

I think Ozzie Smith is getting something of a short shrift as far as offense goes. Eye balling it (so caveat emptor) he appears to have spent a fair chunk of his career as an average or above average offense shortstop (hitting only) then add in 580 stolen bases at an 80% rate and he looks better on total offensive contributions.

29. Jonathan Gaston Sees You When You're Sleeping Posted: April 05, 2009 at 05:30 PM (#3124849)

"Hey Derek, Jeter?"

"Not yet."

30. Biff isn't really an apt handle anymore Posted: April 05, 2009 at 05:44 PM (#3124861)

I'm still surprised that this story has been getting so much play from the MSM. What changed in this particular offseason that made his defensive shortcomings finally become known in the MSM?

31. Obi One Kenobi Nil (BFFB)

Posted: April 05, 2009 at 05:45 PM (#3124863)

world baseball classic at a guess

32. DKDC Posted: April 05, 2009 at 05:56 PM (#3124871)

How does Jeter compare to Ripken?

He doesn't really. Ripken had a similar bat (118 OPS+ through age 34) and a vastly better glove.

33. bpasinko Posted: April 05, 2009 at 05:57 PM (#3124872)

He'll do whatever it takes to win, he'll even bat leadoff!

34. OCF Posted: April 05, 2009 at 06:32 PM (#3124903)

I have no idea how Ozzie Smith is viewed in this community or elsewhere.

To summarize the Hall of Merit position: Ozzie Smith ranked in a near-tie with Alan Trammell.

Both Smith and Trammell became eligible for the HoM in "2002." Both of them lapped the field, finishing far ahead of anyone in the backlog. In that election in which 49 voters participated, Trammell finished 1st, just slightly ahead of Smith. Their vote totals: 1011 for Trammell, 999 for Smith, 314 for Dave Stieb who was in third.

We revisited this with our shortstop ranking vote last year, and got a reversal of that ranking: Smith 14th, Trammell 15th among the 25 shortstops (more than most positions) that have been elected to the HoM. I should add that only 24 voters took part in that ranking, only about half of those for the regular election. I'll also add that I always personally ranked Smith ahead of Trammell - but I'm just one voter.

Here are places 10 through 20 on that all-time SS ranking list, for context:

10. Joe Cronin
11. Ernie Banks
12. Willie "Devil" Wells
13. Grant "Home Run" Johnson
14. Ozzie Smith
15. Alan Trammell
16. Harold "Pee Wee" Reese
17. Lou Boudreau
18. "Pebbly" Jack Glasscock
19. John Montgomery "Monte" Ward (Note: his pitching value is included.)
20. Hugh Jennings

We only ranked those retired for 5 years and already elected to the HoM, so we didn't consider Jeter at all. Placing him requires a certain amount of speculation about the end of his career.

35. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: April 05, 2009 at 06:43 PM (#3124909)

Ripken had a similar bat (118 OPS+ through age 34) and a vastly better glove.

If looking at it in those relatively simplistic terms, you have to consider that OPS+ undervalues Jeter's OBP advantage, and Jeter was a much better baserunner. Ripken has a slight advantage in durability. Overall, I'd give Ripken an edge, but not a big one.

36. DKDC Posted: April 05, 2009 at 08:23 PM (#3124981)

If looking at it in those relatively simplistic terms, you have to consider that OPS+ undervalues Jeter's OBP advantage, and Jeter was a much better baserunner. Ripken has a slight advantage in durability.

You're right, I undersold Jeter's offense, he has a clear edge over Ripken. But it's still nowhere near enough to overcome the difference between one of the best fielding shortstops and one of the worst.

All in, Sean Smith has Ripken as almost 20 wins better through age 34 season.

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Sunday, April 05, 2009

McCarron: As Derek Jeter enters his 14th opener, questions swirl around Yankee captain

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