McCutcheon is better than the two originally reported. Karstens is worse than those guys. Overall value of the package is probably about equal.

i thought for a second the Pirates had thrown in Andrew McCutchen.

McCutchen=Ohlendorf=Kontos>Karstens

/rough estimate

you can have the other two too...we'll be happy to take that dumit guy

McCutchen=Ohlendorf=Kontos>Karstens

Where do you think Coke fits in there? I think it's clear that Karstens is pure filler at this time.

Coke is better than Karstens worse than the big 3.

Coke is better than Karstens worse than the big 3.

Sounds fair. I'd call them the "Big" 3, though. These are not guys the Yankees are likely to ever miss.

i thought for a second the Pirates had thrown in Andrew McCutchen.

Yeah, scared the hell out of both Pirate fans there, I'm sure.

I wouldn't mind this haggling over pennies issue except that the Yankees are making out like thieves. Ahh, why did they have to sell cheap to the Yankees of all teams?

i thought for a second the Pirates had thrown in Andrew McCutchen.

Yeah, scared the hell out of both Pirate fans there, I'm sure.

Since they've proven they can work with Cashman, perhaps the Pirates could be enticed to send him over for, say, Al Aceves and Brett Gardner.

haggling over pennies

I read this as "hanging over penis"

I read this as "hanging over penis"

Is that what the kids are calling it these days? Maybe if you weren't hanging over penis so much, your eyesight would be better. Maybe if your girlfriend catches you, she will leave.

Is that what the kids are calling it these days? Maybe if you weren't hanging over penis so much, your eyesight would be better. Maybe if your girlfriend catches you, she will leave.

I think it's a reference to the first scene of Shortbus.

Ahh, why did they have to sell cheap to the Yankees of all teams?

Probably because they didn't have a better offer. Which means they didn't really sell cheap.

This change has no significance. Karstens and McCutchen are both 25/26 year olds who are holding their own in AAA ball, but not setting it on fire. You can squint real hard and imagine one of them managing to hold down a 5.00 ERA in the NL. Once again, like everything the Pirates do, the theme is "no upside".

Pete Abraham reporting the Yankees have traded for Washburn now. No details yet.

Honestly, I don't mind this deal. I'd rather have Washburn than Rasner, and if/when Kennedy and Hughes get back to the majors, I can see them putting him in the bullpen.

Abraham:

UPDATE, 3:12 p.m.: Hmm, maybe not. Says Brian Cashman, “I have no irons in the fire. I’m cold.”
Of course that could change in a second.

I'd rather have Washburn than Rasner, and if/when Kennedy and Hughes get back to the majors, I can see them putting him in the bullpen.

As long as this all ends up with a Hawkins DFA to clear a roster spot for somebody, I'm down with it.

Geez, Pete, maybe make the calls before you report the scoop next time.

Hawkins has already been designated for assignment.

Cashman was saying last night that he had no idea about any trade when the Pirates were already talking to the media about the trade. So... take that as you will.

McCutchen's stuff is supposed to play up a lot in the pen. I could see both he and Ohlendorf developing into very good relievers.

There's very little developing to be done. The guy turns 26 soon. He is what he is.

Hawkins has already been designated for assignment.

And there was much rejoicing!

Once again, like everything the Pirates do, the theme is "no upside".

Tabata is nothing but upside - he's 19 and has been pretty mediocre recently. I think "no upside" was Littlefield's mantra, but with Huntington I don't see that as the case. He's gone out of his way to pick up guys like Dumatrait (first round pick with awful recent performance), Barthmaier (well-regarded prospect only two years ago), Denny Bautista (the definition of the high-upside project), Scheppers (extremely high risk, extremely high upside), and now Tabata. Seriously, would you rather have had us hold on to Nady?

Yes. Nady will be type A when he goes and two draft picks are much more valuable than Jose Tabata. And the other guys the Pirates got are, to the Pirates, worthless.

The Pirates' problem is that Nady has one year of arbitration left (if I'm reading his contract situation correctly), and they weren't about to pay him $7 million or $8 million next year, because they're cheapskates.

Tabata LOOKS like upside, but he really isn't. There are dozens of guys in AA ball with no power that are all just as likely to develop power as Tabata is. Tabata's injury prone and has shown no power, and he's been suspended, I think twice, this year for his bad attitude. I don't think he's much of a prospect at all.

There are dozens of guys in AA ball with no power that are all just as likely to develop power as Tabata is.

I bet there aren't dozens of 19 year olds in AA period.

It's pure scouty 'but I think he's going to fill out and gain power' optimism. Tabata's overmatched at AA and is pretty much starting with a clean slate as a 20/21 year old in AA, and he's going to have to produce next year to be a prospect. I'd feel better about it if he weren't fragile or if he cared, but all the evidence so far is that he is fragile and he doesn't care.

This was all my opinion of him two days ago. Suffice to say that his now being a Pirate (or a Curvy or whatever you would call a member of the Altoona Curve) doesn't improve my expectations for him.

I'd feel better about it if he weren't fragile or if he cared, but all the evidence so far is that he is fragile and he doesn't care.

But if those things were true of him, the Yankees would probably be less willing to trade him for a Xavier Nady.

Karstens and McCutchen are both 25/26 year olds who are holding their own in AAA ball, but not setting it on fire.

McCutchen has 58 Ks, 11 walks in 70.1 innings in AAA. He's not young, 25, but if K / BB ratio of 5.2 is "holding his own", WTF is "setting on fire"?

Yes. Nady will be type A when he goes

There's no guarantee of this, unless you believe that Nady has reached a new level of performance. If he drops back to his career levels, a 105-110 OPS+ corner OF who'll be ranked together with 1b, he's got a shot, yes, but that's all. He was NOT a type A after 2007, after a 102 OPS+ season in 2006, and a 107 OPS+ in 2007.

He's not young, 25, but if K / BB ratio of 5.2 is "holding his own", WTF is "setting on fire"?

EDIT: Looking at the numbers, I was wrong. He's had a rising K rate but his K/BB rate has been good since he came up to AAA.

Tabata's overmatched at AA and is pretty much starting with a clean slate as a 20/21 year old in AA, and he's going to have to produce next year to be a prospect.

The average age of all hitters in the Eastern this season is 24.6. Of the top 20 by OPS, the youngest are the 3 22 year olds: Nick Evans (926), Wilkin Ramirez (917), Lou Marson (863). There are 4 23 year olds: Luke Hughes (941), Scott Campbell (909), Jason Donald (902), Dan Murphy (848). There are 6 24 year olds, 5 25 year olds, 1 26 year old, 1 27 year old.

Looking at the numbers, I was wrong. He's had a rising K rate but his K/BB rate has been good since he came up to AAA.

I like McCutcheon. I think there's a chance he would have been a better choice than Ponson or Rasner within the next month or two. But the improvement of Nady over Gardner/Christian is much larger than a possible upgrade from Ponson to McCutcheon. And, long-term, there are a lot of young guys I'd rather see the Yankees putting in the rotation.

rfloh, it's quite common for the Eastern League's best hitters to be non-prospects because of their advanced age and/or Eastern League veteran status. The Pirates have had a few of them in Altoona, like Cam Bonifay's kid Josh, for instance.

Hanley Ramirez spent his age 21 season in the Eastern League and hit .271/.335/.385. That barely qualifies as production, but

1. Tabata was far from that this year as a 19/20 year old, and
2. Ramirez had raving scouting profiles that Tabata doesn't have. Most of Tabata's scouting reports say 'he's going to be great if he gets his head screwed on straight and develops some power.'

When Nate McLouth was 22 he hit .322/.380/.462 in Altoona. That was a bit of a batting average fluke; he was more of a .300 hitter in the minors.

I'm not asking for much, really, and I don't mind if you disagree. If Tabata comes out next year, plays most of the season, improves his attitude enough to not get suspended for it, and hits .260/.330/.390 in Altoona, I'll be happy to acknowledge he's a prospect. Right now it's a long shot, and yes, I understand Xavier Nady and Damaso Marte aren't superstars, but Tabata's the only potential impact player in the deal, and it looks like a gamble of long odds to me.

And again, Trenton's the PETCO Park of the Eastern League, so maybe it's all a park thing and a batting average fluke. We'll see.

I think one of the consequences of this deal is that the Yankees are going to let Bobby Abreu walk and put Nady in right field next season, unless Nady flops and Abreu gets red-hot.

rfloh, it's quite common for the Eastern League's best hitters to be non-prospects because of their advanced age and/or Eastern League veteran status. The Pirates have had a few of them in Altoona, like Cam Bonifay's kid Josh, for instance.

What's your point? That the best hitters in the Eastern are older than Tabata? That most hitters in the Eastern are older than Tabata? How is that a bad thing, for Tabata?

hits .260/.330/.390 in Altoona,

His career line is 291 .362 .382. Why do you believe that he cannot put up a 260/330/390 line when he's healed up? Does he have any chronic injuries, like a lower posterior chain problem?

Sure Tabata isn't a Hanley type prospect, but Nady + Marte aren't Josh Beckett type talents, unless you believe Nady is now clearly better than a 105-110 OPS+ corner OF.
Also, Littlefield would probably have traded for Shelly Duncan.

Hanley Ramirez spent his age 21 season in the Eastern League and hit .271/.335/.385. That barely qualifies as production, but

1. Tabata was far from that this year as a 19/20 year old, and
2. Ramirez had raving scouting profiles that Tabata doesn't have. Most of Tabata's scouting reports say 'he's going to be great if he gets his head screwed on straight and develops some power.'

Ramirez was 16 months older than Tabata when he was in AA. And there WERE question marks about Ramirez - not as big as for Tabata, but there was a reason why Boston was willing to include Ramirez in a trade - including some questions about his attitude. For [url=http://www.baseballexaminer.com/PositionalTop10s/top15shortstops.htm]instance:
[/url]

Since his 2002 debut in Rookie ball, Ramirez has made quite a reputation for himself. A lot of it for his skills on the field. Some of it for his immaturity and occasional nonchalant attitude.

But in any case, 16 months is a large difference among players so young, and sort of renders the reference to Ramirez irrelevant. Even if they were the same age, of course, saying that Tabata isn't as good a prospect as Ramirez (one of the best players in the game) doesn't mean the Pirates didn't do right to get Tabata. If he can become a minor star for them, they've won the deal big time. Heck, if he becomes Nady for them, and one of the pitchers becomes a decent reliever for them, they've won the deal.

That doesn't mean there aren't question marks about Tabata - but as others have pointed out, without question marks the Yankees would never have traded Tabata for Nady.

I think one of the consequences of this deal is that the Yankees are going to let Bobby Abreu walk and put Nady in right field next season, unless Nady flops and Abreu gets red-hot.

I think that's pretty clear. You get similar production, at probably 1/2 the cost, and you should pick up 2 draft picks.

Who's going to sign a 35-year-old Bobby Abreu for twice the salary ($8-9M?) Nady's going to get in arbitration this year?

Okay, okay, the Dodgers, you're right.

Wouldn't Abreu give the Yankees a "Hell Yes!" if they offered arb?

Hey, question about the draft pick compensation, if anybody knows. Suppose the Braves offer Teixeira arbitration (they probably won't, but suppose they do for this exercise), the Yankees sign him, so the Braves get the Yankees' #28 pick or whatever and a comp pick. Then the Yankees sign C.C. Sabathia. Are the Brewers boned, only getting the comp pick for him, since the Braves already got the Yankees' first rounder? Do they get a second comp pick to compensate? Anybody know?

And yeah, I think the Yankees have always intended to let Abreu walk.

My opinion is Nady for Tabata would have been a fair trade, based on (in my opinion) Tabata's very low probability of becoming a star. Nady AND Marte for Tabata and a pupu platter of worthless (to the Pirates) pitchers is a terrible trade, I think. If Marte could have brought back a single 19 year old guy with real tools, and I think he could have, that's the trade the Pirates should have been looking for.

I will have no choice but to point at the Pirates and laugh when they trade Bay to the Mets and don't get Fernando Martinez back.

If the Yankees sign both Tex and Sabathia, the team which lost the player rated lower for compensation purposes gets the Yankees' second round pick and a compensation pick.

In terms of draft pick compensation, if a team signs two type A free agents, whichever team loses the higher rated one gets the first, and the other team would get the second. Both teams would get supplemental firsts also. It's based on their rankings, not their order of signing.

Edit: Too slow.

Thanks. That could be an issue for the Brewers, who presumably traded away LaPorta under the assumption they'd get a first and a comp for Sabathia at the end of the season. (And has anybody else noticed that the Brewers are making no bones about riding Sabathia hard and putting him away wet the rest of the year? Smart move on their part.) If all they get is a comp pick and the Yankees' second rounder, which will be something like the 85th pick... that's really not terribly much.

But then, if Sabathia keeps pitching the way he is, it makes the Braves' decision not to offer arb to Teixeira easier, because I'd imagine Sabathia will be rated higher anyway.

I'm on an editing spree! If the Braves don't intend to offer arb to Teixeira, then in may opinion it's absolutely imperative for them to trade him now for whatever they can get. Their playoff chances are very slim.

It would be insane to not offer Tex arbitration. He'll get his money from New York, Baltimore or the Angels, 100% guaranteed.

I like McCutcheon. I think there's a chance he would have been a better choice than Ponson or Rasner within the next month or two. But the improvement of Nady over Gardner/Christian is much larger than a possible upgrade from Ponson to McCutcheon. And, long-term, there are a lot of young guys I'd rather see the Yankees putting in the rotation.

mccutcheon is probably a better choice than snacks pontoon and razzler right now, but the chances of him replacing either within the next month were never that good. both aceves and IPK were clearly ahead of him on the depth chart.

i think the yankees can be fairly confident in offering abreu arbitration; he's hit well enough to get some sort of multi-year deal from someone, especially if he get hot in the 2nd half of the year as he has done in the last 2.

Who's going to sign a 35-year-old Bobby Abreu for twice the salary ($8-9M?) Nady's going to get in arbitration this year?

Okay, okay, the Dodgers, you're right.

Well, he's making $16M now. He probably doesn't get that much, but to the Yankees it's half the (current) price they are paying for that production/spot.

Abreu will get more than 1 year from somebody. Have we already forgotten the Jose Guilen and Gary Matthews, Jr. experiences?

If he does go to arb, he should be easy for the Yankees to trade on a one-year deal, i.e. Sheffield.

Why in the world would the Braves not offer Tex arbitration? Because he might accept it? He is going to get a big contract and the loss of a first round pick by the signing team is not even going to be a consideration. Worst case scenerio, ehe accepts and the Braves get the best 1B on the market and chance to keep or retain him the next year when the presumably have a better chance of competing.

As long as a player is above average, teams should never fear arbitration. You can always trade a decent player on a one-year deal, even if he is expensive. Some team is always on the verge of contention and willing to pay up for one-year.

The Greg Maddux Catastrophe has Braves ownership gunshy to this very day. It's stupid, yes, but possible. Not in the least because if he accepts, he can simply be traded. Teixeira isn't a 10 and 5 guy like Maddux was, either.

The Greg Maddux Catastrophe has Braves ownership gunshy to this very day. It's stupid, yes, but possible. Not in the least because if he accepts, he can simply be traded. Teixeira isn't a 10 and 5 guy like Maddux was, either.

I think there are very few teams with that strict a budget these days. MBL is just rolling in $$$. Maybe Florida would worry, but they'd have traded the guy 3 years earlier, before he first got to arb.