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Personally, the biggest part of my case against Steinbrenner is that he's a convicted felon, and as such, doesn't pass the morals clause. If I were inclined to give him a pass for that (and I'm not), then the lifetime ban he picked up for his dealings with Howard Spira would drive a stake into my charitable impulse.
Nailed it for me. I couldn't care less about the money and farm systems thing but the dealings with Howie Spira aren't the conduct of a Hall of Famer. I think it's also illustratory that Steinbrenner was hated in New York until the 90s, and that it took his suspension to get Stick Michael some autonomy over baseball ops and the ability to start rebuilding the team.
(there, that'll guarantee a 600-post thread)
Yawkey shouldn't be in either.
Me, three.
The Hall would probably shrink a lot if we left out unabashed racists. Taking out the convicted felons would have less of an impact. Just sayin'.
And I'm not sure what Steinbrenner did as an owner to deserve enshrinement. The article doesn't give any hints, so maybe it's just a shot at a straw man in the hope he doesn't become more substantantial.
I don't think Steinbrenner's reputation within NY has changed all that much since he bought the team. It's always been a mixture of frustration at his constant meddling and tempestuous behavior with grudging respect at his desire to keep the team competative above all else. That didn't change in the 90s; it was just overwhelmed by the team's success.
it took his suspension to get Stick Michael some autonomy over baseball ops and the ability to start rebuilding the team
this is actually something of a myth, as Posnanski pointed out in his piece on Steinbrenner last week. People forget that the '96 team had the highest payroll in MLB and had a good number of free-agent acquisitions (Wetteland, Boggs, Key).
The Hall of Fame is full of Racists, Felons, Anti-Semites, Crooks, Gamblers (get over it), Thugs, Hellions, Cranks, Womanizers, Bastards, Jerkasses, Drunks and quite possibly a murderer or two. If you were take out them, you'd be left with, like, 20 Hall of Famers. And that might be high.
As would a couple of the remaining HoFers - your list forgot to mention the Druggies.
You are correct Ryan. I also left out Spitballers, Bat-Corkers, Sign-Stealers, Greenie-Users and 'Roiders.
Stan Musial and who else?
unless Jackie Robinson enjoyed strangling hobos in his spare time and I just never heard about it, I think he's safe.
Christy Mathewson, maybe? Possibly Lou Gehrig.
Ernie Banks rep has stood up pretty well over the years.
As far as Boss George goes, I'm curious... were the Yankees really all that special when you look at the Steinbrenner regime cumulatively?
I realize they turned around in the mid/late 70s under Big Stein after quite lean times after the 60s dynasty collapsed... but they didn't really win crap in the 80s beyond the 81 strike year. The 90s were obviously different, and that carried over into the early aughts.
Still - when you consider the way the Yankees virtually owned the AL since the arrival of Ruth, were they really all that successful under Steinbrenner compared to previous eras?
Depending on where you draw the line this can be said of just about any group of people.
Would patronizing hookers be a no-no?
I realize they turned around in the mid/late 70s under Big Stein after quite lean times after the 60s dynasty collapsed... but they didn't really win crap in the 80s beyond the 81 strike year. The 90s were obviously different, and that carried over into the early aughts.
Still - when you consider the way the Yankees virtually owned the AL since the arrival of Ruth, were they really all that successful under Steinbrenner compared to previous eras?
Well, on the field you're setting the bar was too high, if you're comparing them to Yankees of the reserve clause era.
But in the 80's the Yankees did win more games than any team in baseball. And more to the point, Steinbrenner was a perfect role model for every owner who looks to bleed every possible penny out of his franchise.
If you look at what his team accomplished on the field in the context of reasonable expectations, you'd give him somewhere between a B and a B-. But like Catfish Hunter, he concentrated his best years into a short span for voters to remember without straining themselves. That usually doesn't hurt.
If you look at him as a human being, he'd be closer to a C- to D. But that's not usually what voters think about except in a handful of cases. And the true scandal of his reign---that nudge-nudge, wink-wink striking of the drug clause in the Giambi contract, which he's stonewalled or worse every time it's been raised---isn't even on the radar, even with many writers who would never vote for a juicing player. Lots of double standards there.
But if you look at Steinbrenner as a businessman, he's an A+++, even within the context of his enormous demographic advantage.
Put it all together, and I'll bet that he gets in. Walter O'Malley wasn't exactly the paragon of human virtue himself, and those two are the most important owners of the last 60 years.
this is actually something of a myth, as Posnanski pointed out in his piece on Steinbrenner last week. People forget that the '96 team had the highest payroll in MLB and had a good number of free-agent acquisitions (Wetteland, Boggs, Key).
Now I'm not all that familiar with the early 90s Yankees, but the CW was that Steinbrenner would simply trade young players for veterans, and the 96 Yankees had four very high profile products of the farm system: Bernie Williams, Derek Jeter, Mo Rivera, and Andy Pettitte. That's the best player, Rookie of the Year, best reliever, and best pitcher on the 96 team. Now almost everybody else was a free agent, but if that CW stands up to any empirical research it's a big change on the worst Steinbrennerian excesses.
a good point, but it's hard to suss out how accurate the CW is. The story goes that throughout the 80s Steinbrenner constantly traded away good young prospects for overrated veterans, except there's a problem: who were these good young prospects? How many Yankee farmhands were traded away and went on to do great things elsewhere? (Jay Buhner is one example, but how many others are there?)
As Andy pointed out in no. 21, the Yankees won more games in the 80s than any other team, so you can't quite write off the whole decade as a failure of Steinbrennerian excess. Yes, he embraced free agency and largely ignored player development, but that didn't prevent him from putting together competative teams.
here's the rub: of those four, only Bernie strikes me as someone who wouldn't have still been on the team in '96 if Steinbrenner hadn't been suspended - the Yankees had to endure a couple of years of mediocre-to-bad performance before he found his feet. The other three were very good the second they showed up in the majors.
And the argument against Yawkey isn't that he was a racist - it's that his racism had a significant negative effect on the performance of the team he owned and operated, when the operation of that team is ostensibly the reason he belongs in the Hall. Cap Anson may not have liked black people, but it never stopped him from hitting.
Doug Drabek wasn't technically a rookie anymore when he was traded, but he turned out pretty well for the Pirates. Jim Deshaies had a pretty good career with the Astros, too. And Bob Tewksbury with the Cardinals the next year.
Thanks, Vlad. But frankly, as a Yankee fan, I'm not really weeping at the thought that I missed the collective careers of Drabek, Deshaies, and Tewksbury.
Fred McGriff, Willie McGee
Jose Rijo.
1982: Greg Gagne, Fred McGriff, Mike Morgan
1984: Otis Nixon, Stan Javier, Jose Rijo (they did get Rickey though in the latter deal)
1985: Rex Hudler
1989: Al Leiter, Hal Morris
1992: J.T. Snow
Obviously, some of those deals are unfortunate, but it's doubtful what impact those guys would have. Some of them had okay careers, but hardly great ones. Several had their positions already filled on the Yankees by better players. The worst are probably the two early ones--McGee and McGriff, and in the latter case, the Yanks already had Mattingly.
The problem for most of these deals is just that they didn't get enough back.
But I'm sure you could look at a lot of franchises and see a lot of fine players traded away in the same time span. I mean, of this bunch (including Buhner, Drabek, and the others), there's only one who even has a chance to sniff the Hall of Fame.
Hell, the Orioles arguably did worse with one trade - Curt Schilling, Steve Finley, and Pete Harnisch.
You are correct sir!
Stick Michael once told a story a decade or so later of being ordered, by Steinbrenner, to trade Bernie Williams, circa '95 or '96. Michael made up some excuse about another team trying to squeeze him and delayed and delayed until Bernie had reversed his slow start and come on strong. And, as Michaels told it, Steinbrenner like many a petty despot, never officially rescinded his order to trade Bernie or admitted he'd been wrong. He just quietly dropped the matter and counted on his underlings to not throw it back in his face.
So the Hall of Fame is the standard now? Yeesh. Drabek and Rijo won Cy Youngs, and a bunch of the others were All-Stars or starters for good teams, but I'm sure the Yanks didn't miss any of them at all...
I must admit though that this is a very nice 1991 rotation--except Leiter's 0-0, 27.00 line. Sanderson was a little better than that.
Me, three.
Need a fourth?
Oh, and maybe Bill Klem would be in.
Just for comparative purposes, quality young players traded away by the Pirates during the 1980s: Larry Andersen, Dave Dravecky, Vance Law, Pascual Perez, Tim Burke (ha!), Jay Buhner (double ha!), Brian Harper, Jose DeLeon, Joe Orsulak, Mike Bielecki, and Randy Milligan.
I'm not 100% a neutral observer here, but I think the talent the Yankees traded away was significantly better.
The Yankees were so successful under Mr. Steinbrenner that the league felt the need to confiscate upwards of $100 million annually from the team, beginning during their most recent dynasty run in the late-90s. When mere "revenue sharing" failed to adequately hamstring the pinstripers, a second cry went up for an additional "luxury tax" structured to affect only one team.
Like Wilt Chamberlain in the NBA, the Steinbrenner Yankees were so dominant under the existing rule structure that special rules had to be passed to give lesser talents a fair chance. That's pure greatness.
More wicked still, he restricted its sale to Yankee fans alone. The bastard.
The Mariners traded Rick Honeycutt, Bud Black, Danny Tartabull, Mike Morgan, and Chuck Carr. If you spill into the early 1990s, there's also Geronimo Berroa, Bill Swift, Dave Burba, Mike Jackson, Fernando Vina, Bret Boone, Mike Hampton, and Omar Vizquel. OUCH.
c yogi berra
1b lou gehrig
2b joe morgan
ss ozzie
3b eddie matthews
rf mel ott
cf tris speaker
lf stan musial
rhp matty
lhp sandy
rp tough one; fingers? sutter?
yogi didn't do the carousing with mickey and the gang, he usually left early to go home to his wife and kids. i don't know much about matthews, so i'm assuming no news is good news. schmidt got religion after his retirement. mel ott was known as a straight shooter. he was on the giants roster at the age of 16 and was basically taken care of by john mcgraw personally until he was of age, at which time he got married and had a family. tris speaker was also kind of known as a clean living guy, he roomed with smoky joe wood for his whole career. we know about stan and matty -- although i'm curious about the hooker business. sandy has been pretty uncontroversial and was always quiet and kind of private; he had some failed marriages but they weren't scandalous. oh, and connie mack for manager.
If you wanted to be safe - and I know nothing about Mathews' reputation either - you could put Brooks Robinson at 3B. He's as clean-cut as they come (or at least his reputation is).
I heard that Tris Speaker was a member of the KKK, although I also heard that at the time, the KKK was more of a social club than a cross-burning terrorist organization.
Spoke? Damn, center field must be populated by some serious degenerates if he's the cleanest.
c bench? he seemed kind of mean.
1b bottomley
2b hornsby
ss maranville
3b schmidt?
rf ruth
cf cobb
lf bonds (it'll happen)
rhp don drysdale? (headhunter)
lhp
rp
i'm drawing blanks on pitchers. this one was tougher. its easy to think of hall of famers you dont like, but hard to judge them. manager is durocher by a mile. the guy was just plain manipulative and sneaky. he said he learned a lot from maranville, so i put rabbit at short. maybe i should have had frisch at second for all the damage he did to the hall later, but he wasn't a dirty player or unpopular. hornsby was extremely unpopular and rightly so.
According to Timothy Gay's biography on Speaker he once told a reporter that he was a KKK member. He also had ties to gamblers and bookies. So despite his later friendship with Larry Doby, he was not that clean.
Can't we put Robin Yount in CF instead? The worst thing he ever did was ride a dirtbike around County Stadium.
pitchers are tough, because there are plenty who had nasty reputations from their actions on the mound (the aforementioned Gibson, Walter Johnson was another) who off the field were universally hailed as good clean guys.
Niekro for one. I'd include Sutton for his fight against nazi, child-molestors in the sport.
Are we discounting Willie Mays because of his banning from baseball by Bowie Kuhn?
here's the rub: of those four, only Bernie strikes me as someone who wouldn't have still been on the team in '96 if Steinbrenner hadn't been suspended - the Yankees had to endure a couple of years of mediocre-to-bad performance before he found his feet. The other three were very good the second they showed up in the majors.
But Bernie was the best player on at least the 96 team and probably the 95 team as well, and in 95 they certainly didn't have the breathing room for a lesser player to step in and still make the playoffs. If they miss the playoffs does Steinbrenner fire front office people?
is this about the 'dirtiest' team? i just thought cobb was worse. i suppose i should take out ruth, really. he was immensely popular as a player, but in his private life he was a real reprobate in his younger years. like i said, this is a pretty subjective exercise. steve carlton could maybe be the lhp on the dirty team; didn't he come out as a kind of anti-semite crank?
When did Matthewson pick up hookers?
Well, obviously I wasn't there, but my understanding is that he was known to visit the red-light district on occasion.
It depends on what you think of that (if true) as to whether it's enough to call him out on morals.
Walter Johnson was another
My understanding is that Johnson was actually something of a pussycat on the mound, reluctant to throw inside lest he hurt someone with his fastball. Perhaps that was just good old-fashioned hagiography, but on the other hand I never heard different till now.
I think you could add Cy Young to the list of unobjectionable sorts.
Was it for making Robin Hood? Because that might be O.K. then.
I think the fact that he's tops all-time in hit batsmen contradicts that theory. According to what I've seen (mostly from The Glory of Their Times), Johnson was a nice guy who also had pretty good control (he's much farther down the list of walks allowed and wild pitches), but like Gibson he wouldn't shy from plunking a guy or three to keep an intimidation factor.
Nope. He didn't.
Just acknowledge that he had a huge edge in revenues available or possible to the franchise simply for the number of people in metro new york. Do you think, that if he'd been successful in buying the Indians that he would have done the same things and the yankees would have been a mid level payroll team?
What did he add to the team?
Does every trade have to involve ripping the other team off? Leiter was injured/ineffective until he was 27 in the mid 1990s. He brought in Jesse Barfield, who gave the Yanks two good seasons, which was needed right after Winfield got hurt in 1989 and missed the season.
Rijo was traded for Rickey Henderson. I'd do that trade again, and never let Lou Piniella manage Rickey.
Mike Morgan was crap until he went to the Dodgers at 29. The fact that he was traded/released a zillion times probably makes him a less than desirable commodity.
JT Snow was traded for Jim Abbott, who crashed and burned after two great years for California.
They also brought in Bob Wickman and Melido Perez for a toasted Steve Sax, traded Roberto Kelly for Paul O'Neill, and acquired Don Slaught for Brad Arnsberg.
Drabek was traded for Rick Rhoden, who had a very solid 1986 for Pittsburgh. Bad trade. Ditto Tewk for Steve Trout, which was inexcusable. Buhner for Phelps is legendary.
Signing Andy Hawkins, Dave LaPoint, Tim Leary, Britt Burns and Pascual Perez for big money were horrible. In retrospect, their free agent decisions were much worse than their trades.
Seems like a mixed bag to me.
Mays was never involved in any off the field scandal, but OTOH from every account I've heard from many people over the past 30 years, he's a world class prick when it comes to any dealings with fans. When I was a book dealer I handled about a dozen signed Mays books, and other than one I kept for my own collection, just about every other one of them was signed at such a weird angle on the page that it ruined the aesthetic effect of the signature. It was very hard to believe that he wasn't aware of this.
But then when you think about Cobb, Dimaggio, Mantle and Speaker (and Duke Snider's not so magnificent, either), it looks like Richie Ashburn will have to do until Dale Murphy does a little retroactive stat padding.
As for the scandal, though, of course you're right; lots of people don't realize that Kuhn wasn't accusing Mays/Mantle of doing anything wrong. He was just saying "You can't be affiliated with both at the same time. Pick one."
Mike Morgan was a perfectly adequate (i.e. league-average) mid-rotation starter at 26 and 27 (i.e. 1986 and 1987). He had a bad year with the Orioles in 1988, and then was pretty good for the Dodgers and Cubs after that. The difference between his Seattle and LA numbers looks a lot larger than it really is due to park/league context.
1986 is debatable, but the Yankees sure as hell could've used him in '87. He put up a 102 ERA+ across 207 IP and 31 starts, during a season in which the Yanks ended up handing starts to fifteen different guys, and had a total of two pitchers with 150+ IP.
When did Matthewson pick up hookers?
Well, obviously I wasn't there, but my understanding is that he was known to visit the red-light district on occasion.
Why do you think they called him "Big Six"?
I disagree. Have a signed 8X10 photo of any ball player and the sharpie signature across the face of the athlete and it will get less than a signature in a more sensible location, say 'off the face'.
Similarly, an autographed baseball not on the 'sweet spot' will always get less than one scrunched together near the top of the seams.
If two signed Willie Mays books are in front of me and one is signed near the end of the index, or upside down on the title page, I will always pay more for the one where the signature is centered and prominently placed on the title page.
well that tears it. steve garvey has been dethroned as the prince of darkness.
:-)
After his HOF election Carlton gave an interview to Philadelphia Magazine where he said the world was run by a dozen Zionist bankers out of Switzerland, AIDS was created by government scientists and the National Education Association was part of an organized leftwing conspiracy to indoctrinate students.
On the other hand, he loathed Bill Conlin.
As a long time book and sports memorabilia dealer, I can say with total certainty that you're 100% wrong about the "market value" aspect of the above. If you have a truly rare autograph---a Ross Youngs, Addie Joss, or even a relatively common one from a long deceased icon like Lou Gehrig---most collectors will be willing to settle for just about anything that's readable. But when you have a player with literally 100,000 or more signed pieces out there, the only way to sell a book that's signed upside down on a page is to offer it for about ten dollars to a bottom feeder who mistakenly thinks that you don't know what you're doing.
And if you don't see any psychological difference between opening a book and seeing an autograph written in the "natural" left to right position, and one turned about 160 degrees counter-clockwise, all I can say is that you're lucky you've never had to sell anything but courtroom arguments to a jury, because every autograph dealer in the world would be dumping their unsellable junk on you.
And yes, an autograph does "represent the person." But when a player deliberately** autographs a book upside down on a page, especially to a child whose father has just shelled out good money for it, that's a pretty good representation of the person right there.
**once or twice is perhaps a mistake; tens of thousands of times isn't
Shouldn't he be called the "Average Six" then?
Depending on his personal tastes, it could be "Butt Six".
I'll just say, then, that I don't care; people getting autographs to re-sell them ought to be kicked in the face anyway. (And people buying them secondhand don't even deserve that much courtesy.)But wait, now you're back to making a market value argument. Unless I'm planning to re-sell it, why do I care whether it's "unsellable" or not? (And again, I wouldn't buy it anyway. If I meet Cal Ripken and he signs his name for me on his book, I don't care if he does it in green crayon on page 17 of the book, because the whole point is that he signed it for me.)
Well, he also has the third-most innings and threw a fastball that probably was hard to get out of the way of.
Funny you say that Andy. When I was a baby my mom ran into Willie Mays. She asked him to wait while she ran into a five-and-dime across the street while she bought a ball and a sharpie. He did, and ergo I have a ball signed to me by Willie Mays. Guess it was a good day. Or he had the hots for my mom.
Sounds like pretty standard talk radio fare. Give him a slot between "Coast to Coast AM" and G Gordon Liddy and see if anyone even bats an eye.
Er, wait.
c bench? he seemed kind of mean
Does Bench really have this reputation? Or is he just dirty because he was the spokesman for the paint company?
And the positive psychlogical impact of an autographed book or photograph---here I should say to most people, while duly noting your dissent---is immeasurably lessened when it's signed in what can only be described as a flippantly casual manner. The clear message is "I got your f*ck*ng money, suckah---here's your f*ck*ng autograph, chump---NEXT." And while a dealer will know enough to avoid situations like that, many collectors, not armed with the foreknowledge of Mays's rather cretinish character, don't have any recourse, and are stuck with the insult.
people getting autographs to re-sell them ought to be kicked in the face anyway. (And people buying them secondhand don't even deserve that much courtesy.)
Geez, David, whatever happened to good old "willing buyer and willing seller"? There are saints and sleazeballs in the autograph business, just as there are in just about every other business this side of pornography and cigarette manufacturing. But mostly they're simply run of the mill entrepreneurs, in the usual 40 to 60 range on the character scale. I'm surprised that you get all that worked up about them.
This was 90 years ago, people were malnourished with stunted growth.
Funny you say that Andy. When I was a baby my mom ran into Willie Mays. She asked him to wait while she ran into a five-and-dime across the street while she bought a ball and a sharpie. He did, and ergo I have a ball signed to me by Willie Mays. Guess it was a good day. Or he had the hots for my mom.
Let's just say that on the basis of several dozen firsthand stories I've heard about Willie Mays (and Mantle, too, I should add) from autograph-seeking fans and bookstore employees who've had to cater to his whims during book signings, he must have a lot more bad days than good ones.
iirc, speaker was mentioned in some controversy that also involved cobb in throwing games. dutch leonard implicated them, and cobb was actually forced to resign as tiger manager, but after cobb and speaker secretly met with kenesaw mountain landis, the two players were absolved of wrongdoing and landis ordered cobb reinstated.
edited to remove some inconsistencies with what crispix helpfully posted.
Available is the operative word here. At the time big Stein purchased the team from CBS, they were in the doldrums. No pennants in over 15 years. His team played their 1974 and 1975 "home" games in Shea.
In 1972 they drew less than a million fans; the cross town Mets drew over 2 million. The Yankees were firmly inj second place in their market.
After Steinbrenner took over, they went from 4th in the league in attendance to first-- drawing over 4 million fans the last several years. NYC is a Yankee town, not a Met town.
On the field, the team won 6 WS and 3 pennants.
He's been the longest tenured owner of the baseball's most storied franchise and he is a big part of that story.
Would he have done the same things in Cleveland? Maybe not the same way, but I doubt Cleveland would be referred to as a small market team if Steinbrenner owned it. But *either* way it's really all just conjecture. If you look at what that franchise did while he owned it, the record is remarkable.
I never thought I'd say this, but he belongs.
I guess it's relative. Yeah, the talent the Yankees traded away was a lot better than what the Pirates traded away, but the Tigers at the same time traded away Howard Johnson, Ken Hill, John Smoltz, John Wetteland, and Chris Hoiles, while the aforementioned Orioles traded off not just the big three but Dennis Martinez, Storm Davis, Mike Morgan, and Mickey Tettleton.
Hey, at least the O's didn't release Tettleton like the A's...
I have a Royce Clayton minor league card signed in person when I was in Shreveport visiting my grandmother for the summer. When he signed it, he somehow got his finger in ink, because there's a clear fingerprint starting at the edge of the signature. I always kind of hoped he'd be on the lam like The Fugitive, and I'd auction off that card for thousands in a bidding war between press and police.
He's the only one on a card, the others all went on a baseball. Drillers were in town, so Mets and Giants farmhands. I should go back and look at it to make sure I didn't miss anyone, but the last I looked 4-5 years ago, the next best were Steve Decker and DJ Dozier. So Clayton committing mass murder was my best shot.
actually, i was thinking i could put ruth on the 'clean' and 'dirty' teams ...
Except that Mays doesn't sign it that way for dealers at private signings---because they wouldn't put up for it. Those he signs in the normal fashion, as he used to for everyone many years ago. He only signs upside down for people at card shows and book signings, and he does it because he obviously doesn't give a rat's butt about anyone involved but himself. I wouldn't be saying this if I hadn't seen and heard so much direct evidence of it, and there's little spin that can be honestly applied to it, because it's such a long-standing pattern.
And I don't think that that analogy with you and your kids' report card makes much sense. All people are asking from Mays is that he sign his name in a straightward, normal manner. We're not talking about special inscriptions or anything like that.
When did Matthewson pick up hookers?
Well, obviously I wasn't there, but my understanding is that he was known to visit the red-light district on occasion.
In the Ken Burns documentary series, Daniel Okrent claimed that Matthewson wouldn't talk to sportswriters who cheated on their wives. Eric Rolfe Greenberg's novel The Celebrant turns Matty into almost a Christlike figure.
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