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Saturday, July 19, 2008

MIL Journal-Sentinel: Deal in works for veteran Durham

Since the end of the MIL/SF game, word of a trade to be announced tomorrow between the two teams has leaked out, but no one is sure exactly *WHO*.

The Milwaukee Brewers were working on another trade Saturday evening that possibly could net San Francisco veteran second baseman Ray Durham for minor-league outfielder Darren Ford. Whether other players were involved in the talks was unclear.
...
The Brewers have been looking for a left-handed bat off the bench as well as relief help, and they have shown interest in Durham (a switch-hitter) as well as Giants left-hander Jack Taschner. The Brewers have scouted Oakland’s Huston Street but apparently received bad reports on the struggling closer.
...
A San Francisco source indicated that club was involved in the deal… One rumor circulating had Weeks involved in an expanded deal, but that seemed highly unlikely.

SF Chronicle: Milwaukee might have sights set on Durham

NTNgod Posted: July 19, 2008 at 10:17 PM | 67 comment(s)
  Related News: GeneralMilwaukeeSan FranciscoRumors

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   1. JoeHova  Posted: July 19, 2008 at 09:22 PM (#2865260)
There is some word that Angel Salome is in this deal. I hate it with a burning passion if that's true.
   2. NTNgod  Posted: July 19, 2008 at 09:24 PM (#2865262)
No, Salome is serving a three-game suspension for a fight, it appears.

Four players were suspended for Huntsville, including Brantley and Salome, and a couple of the Chattanooga guys were suspended as well.
   3. JoeHova  Posted: July 19, 2008 at 09:35 PM (#2865270)
I'm aware of the suspension, but some guys on jsonline are claiming 1250 AM (not sure how reputable they are) reported Salome is in the deal.
   4. Harveys Wallbangers  Posted: July 19, 2008 at 09:42 PM (#2865272)
If anything other than a suspect prospect is sent for either player Melvin is losing it.

And you can't trade for a second baseman and not include Weeks in the deal.

If it's Weeks for Durham I guess I am ok with that. Though of course Ray will proceed to lose all sense of the strike zone. Bound to happen
   5. NTNgod  Posted: July 19, 2008 at 09:48 PM (#2865274)
I'm aware of the suspension, but some guys on jsonline are claiming 1250 AM (not sure how reputable they are) reported Salome is in the deal.

Umm, for a salary dump 2B and/or a lefty reliever? That doesn't pass the smell test.

SF Chronicle: Milwaukee might have sights set on Durham
Are the Giants close to dealing second baseman Ray Durham to Milwaukee? Team officials would not touch that question with the proverbial 10-foot pole Saturday, but there were several hints of such a deal.

The Brewers are looking for a bench player who hits left-handed and are expected to announce a trade this morning.
...
Durham's agent, Ed Setlik, answered the phone in his office Saturday night but had no comment.

There was a rumor Saturday of a blockbuster deal that had the Brewers sending second baseman Rickie Weeks to the Giants, but that could not be substantiated at all.

General manager Brian Sabean has acknowledged that he wants to move his potential free agents to contenders. Durham is in the final season of a two-year, $14.5 million contract. If Sabean can deal him, he can remove some or all of the roughly $4 million left on Durham's contracts from the Giants' books.
   6. whoisalhedges  Posted: July 19, 2008 at 10:06 PM (#2865278)
Durham's lost a step offensively and defensively. I'm not saying that he's not playing better than Weeks this year (he is), but the idea of trading anybody for a 36-year-old has-been who's currently playing over his head is abhorrent to me.
   7. Zooooooook (jonathan)  Posted: July 19, 2008 at 10:17 PM (#2865284)
The best part of tonight was when for like 30 minutes he was trying to report that Darren Ford was gonna be traded for Huston Street.
   8. NTNgod  Posted: July 19, 2008 at 10:20 PM (#2865286)
I don't think he meant straight-up, but as a part of the deal :P

Ford getting told he was traded was a good tip-off something was happening. The Brewers had been looking at Street (they sent one of their top scouts to NY to watch the Yankees series), so a Street deal probably did seem the most logical thing.
   9. 1k5v3L, Useless  Posted: July 19, 2008 at 10:34 PM (#2865294)
At this rate, the Brewers will actually sign Marcus Giles and trade Ford to the Mets for Nixon
   10. Craig K  Posted: July 19, 2008 at 10:52 PM (#2865307)
I don't think he meant straight-up, but as a part of the deal :P

Ford getting told he was traded was a good tip-off something was happening. The Brewers had been looking at Street (they sent one of their top scouts to NY to watch the Yankees series), so a Street deal probably did seem the most logical thing.


Oh geez; as a Cardinals fan, you're giving me a coronary.
   11. NTNgod  Posted: July 19, 2008 at 10:59 PM (#2865312)
Eh? It's no secret that the Brewers have been looking around to upgrade their somewhat shaky bullpen (although the Cards' has been worse, IIRC).
   12. Harveys Wallbangers  Posted: July 19, 2008 at 11:07 PM (#2865314)
Stating the obvious but Melvin has to keep from just handing over valuable trinkets just because he can.

Huston Street is good for what 20-30 innings the rest of the way? Toss BB some scraps and leave it at that.
   13. Craig K  Posted: July 19, 2008 at 11:07 PM (#2865315)
Eh? It's no secret that the Brewers have been looking around to upgrade their somewhat shaky bullpen (although the Cards' has been worse, IIRC).

Which is why the Cards FO should be chased out of Busch Stadium with pitchforks if they didn't at least inquire about Street for twofold; prevent a division rival from getting him (no offense, but which team leads the league in blown saves?) and massively upgrade this pitiful bullpen.
   14. NTNgod  Posted: July 19, 2008 at 11:09 PM (#2865316)

Huston Street is good for what 20-30 innings the rest of the way? Toss BB some scraps and leave it at that.

It appears they've backed off Street, but Street would have been different in that he's not a rental - he's 2.5 years from FA.
   15. NTNgod  Posted: July 19, 2008 at 11:18 PM (#2865318)
(no offense, but which team leads the league in blown saves?
The Cards do have that "honor", certainly.

Somewhat surprisingly, the Brewers' bullpen has pitched the second-fewest innings in the league (an inning more than ARI), which I didn't expect. Early on, a number of the starters weren't going very deep into the game (Villanueva, Parra, Bush), and McClung isn't a guy you can expect to go real deep into the game.
   16. Harveys Wallbangers  Posted: July 19, 2008 at 11:23 PM (#2865322)
And Cards fans can cry a river all they want but that lineup has four guys at 130 OPS+.

But this staff that's last in the league in strikeouts has to experience a challenge at some point. Not walking anyone and count on the defense is a strategy. But at some point those balls will fall in for a spell...
   17. The Most Interesting Man In The World  Posted: July 19, 2008 at 11:25 PM (#2865323)
This would be the first trade the Giants have made at the Major League level since they sent Armando Benitez to Florida for Randy Messenger around the end of May 2007. Both of those guys are no longer active, which I suppose isn't very interesting.
   18. NTNgod  Posted: July 19, 2008 at 11:30 PM (#2865325)
I wonder what names were involved in this "expanded" deal both cities' outlets were reporting was rumored (if it did exist).

Was Melvin seeing if he could peel off a Matt Cain in exchange for an additional package of Weeks and other prospects?
   19. Harveys Wallbangers  Posted: July 19, 2008 at 11:30 PM (#2865327)
Since June 1st Dave Bush has pitched 53 innings with 39 k's and 7 walks. 16 earned runs on 41 hits.

The guy is fifth in the league in WHIP.

And Brewer fans lead in whiplash watching him alternate from great to putrid in the space of 5 days....
   20. Craig K  Posted: July 19, 2008 at 11:34 PM (#2865329)
And Cards fans can cry a river all they want but that lineup has four guys at 130 OPS+.


Doesn't matter if the heart of a team's order reads Ruth/Williams/Bonds/Gehrig if the bullpen can't hold a six-run lead for two innings.
   21. Harveys Wallbangers  Posted: July 19, 2008 at 11:34 PM (#2865330)
Dave has two road starts with game scores over 50. Against the Cards in April (51) and in June against Atlanta (69).

In his last two starts at Miller Park he threw 16 innings, gave up 7 hits, 2 runs and struck out 20 while walking none.

Ouchemama
   22. Tom (and his broom)  Posted: July 19, 2008 at 11:56 PM (#2865343)
This would be the first trade the Giants have made at the Major League level since they sent Armando Benitez to Florida for Randy Messenger around the end of May 2007. Both of those guys are no longer active, which I suppose isn't very interesting.


So the Matt Morris and Mark Sweeney trades don't count?
   23. JoeHova  Posted: July 20, 2008 at 12:31 AM (#2865354)
In other news, Prince hit his 100th home run yesterday. That's pretty cool, Ryan Howard (just to pick a slugger) hadn't even made his ML debut by the time he was as old as Prince is now.
   24. Greg K : President of the Shooty Fanclub  Posted: July 20, 2008 at 04:05 AM (#2865390)
Ryan Howard is hardly a random slugger to pick for the "ML debut" test
   25. JoeHova  Posted: July 20, 2008 at 05:00 AM (#2865394)
Ryan Howard is hardly a random slugger to pick for the "ML debut" test


Maybe not, but it looks like he is going to bookend Prince's league-leading 2007, so I thought it was interesting.
   26. North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan  Posted: July 20, 2008 at 12:52 PM (#2865507)
J-S Brewers Blog now says Steve Hammond and Darren Ford for Durham.
   27. BeanoCook  Posted: July 20, 2008 at 12:56 PM (#2865510)
If anything other than a suspect prospect is sent for either player Melvin is losing it.

And you can't trade for a second baseman and not include Weeks in the deal.

If it's Weeks for Durham I guess I am ok with that
. Though of course Ray will proceed to lose all sense of the strike zone. Bound to happen


Seriously? I think Melvin would be losing it if he dealt Weeks straight for Durham, yet you would be ok with that. Sorry, but you would have to be off your rocker to do that deal. Yes, Durham is playing better than Weeks, but not last year, and he is going on 37 and has no future.
   28. BeanoCook  Posted: July 20, 2008 at 12:58 PM (#2865512)
The best part of tonight was when for like 30 minutes he was trying to report that Darren Ford was gonna be traded for Huston Street.


Hardicourt was worse than Badger Blogger on that one. That was seriously weak reporting and displayed an utter lack of baseball knowledge. D Ford is a nobody.
   29. gay guy in cut-offs riding a stegosaurus (MH#1F)  Posted: July 20, 2008 at 01:11 PM (#2865525)
Doesn't matter if the heart of a team's order reads Ruth/Williams/Bonds/Gehrig if the bullpen can't hold a six-run lead for two innings.

Who plays center?
   30. Elston Gunn  Posted: July 20, 2008 at 01:25 PM (#2865536)
Mays. Ruth DHs.
   31. Matt Welch  Posted: July 20, 2008 at 01:50 PM (#2865578)
the idea of trading anybody for a 36-year-old has-been who's currently playing over his head is abhorrent to me.

Ray Durham has been a consistently good (and weirdly underrated) player for more than a decade now. I don't know if he's "currently playing over his head," but I do know that his OPS+s the previous 7 years (this included) look like this:
118
111
107
104
127
65
112

The number that doesn't stick out is the 112....
   32. Ozzie's gay friend  Posted: July 20, 2008 at 01:58 PM (#2865589)
The Brewers have a ton of African American players (or not, I guess), remind me of the teams I watched as a kid.
   33. Harveys Wallbangers  Posted: July 20, 2008 at 02:07 PM (#2865605)
I know I was thinking of something being paired up with Ray.

But Weeks value is more on "maybe" than anything he has done consistently on the field.
   34. BeanoCook  Posted: July 20, 2008 at 02:37 PM (#2865643)
Durham v RHP in 2008 .318/.396/.446 playing in a park that is death to LH power too.
Weeks v RHP in 2008 .203/.304/.342

Durham has no real split for his career, perhaps his ability to hit LHP is in decline with age. Good trade for Brewers, considering Milwaukee's struggles vs RHP, this will be one of those underrated, unnoticed trades that make a difference. Plus, Weeks is the type of player that needs a kick in the pants to get motivated. He only seems to play well when he is being challenged.
   35. Harveys Wallbangers  Posted: July 20, 2008 at 02:53 PM (#2865663)
They announced it on the Brewers pre-game show. As described. Ford/Hammond for Durham.
   36. 1k5v3L, Useless  Posted: July 20, 2008 at 02:58 PM (#2865670)
Both Ford and Hammond look like minor league junk
Don't understand this trade for the Giants... unless they just wanted to save some cash
Of course, cash is as good as money these days
   37. Harveys Wallbangers  Posted: July 20, 2008 at 03:04 PM (#2865678)
levski:

Hammond is the kind of guy who in the right setting could make a decent contribution either as a number 5 guy or swing guy out of a bullpen.

Ford is fast and who knows. The Crew's A ball affiliates are terrible hitters parks so you need to puff up those numbers by 10 percent.
   38. North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan  Posted: July 20, 2008 at 03:13 PM (#2865697)
Both Ford and Hammond look like minor league junk
Don't understand this trade for the Giants... unless they just wanted to save some cash
Of course, cash is as good as money these days


Ford is real junk. Hammond could be a useful part.

Durham is pretty useful for the contending Brewers, but on the Giants, he blocks young players, isn't going to be re-signed, and isn't going to bring picks (you can't offer arb, because he might take it).
   39. Harveys Wallbangers  Posted: July 20, 2008 at 03:19 PM (#2865708)
NS:

I think the Crew will be fine with Durham staying. He's decent insurance on a second baseman who can't hit for 3 weeks straight and has to take a file to break in his glove.
   40. Fumbduck Joe Bivens  Posted: July 20, 2008 at 03:35 PM (#2865737)
In other news, Prince hit his 100th home run yesterday. That's pretty cool, Ryan Howard (just to pick a slugger) hadn't even made his ML debut by the time he was as old as Prince is now.

I'll wager that Howard ends up with more MLB HR's than Fielder does.
   41. Elston Gunn  Posted: July 20, 2008 at 04:01 PM (#2865766)
Really? He's five years older and has only hit 58 more HRs and is playing much worse this year. Do you think Prince is going to break down a lot sooner?
   42. Misirlou had a hedge back home in the suburbs  Posted: July 20, 2008 at 04:53 PM (#2865810)
Doesn't matter if the heart of a team's order reads Ruth/Williams/Bonds/Gehrig


No manager would bat that many lefties in a row.
   43. Brandon in MO (Fire Trey Hillman)  Posted: July 20, 2008 at 04:58 PM (#2865812)
I feel sorry for the guy who got into a fight with a catcher who is STRONG LIKE BULL
   44. ian  Posted: July 20, 2008 at 05:10 PM (#2865828)
And what happens to Weeks?
   45. Fumbduck Joe Bivens  Posted: July 20, 2008 at 05:24 PM (#2865851)
Really? He's five years older and has only hit 58 more HRs and is playing much worse this year. Do you think Prince is going to break down a lot sooner?

Put it this way: Fielder will reach 300 lbs before he reaches 300 HR's.
   46. PASTE is not impressed by Albert Pujols (Zeth)  Posted: July 20, 2008 at 05:33 PM (#2865858)
I would assume they're going to run out something like a platoon between Weeks and Durham. I'd be more inclined to just play Durham 5 days a week and let Weeks be the fifth infielder unless/until Durham crashes.

Weeks and Durham are both terrible defensive second basemen (Weeks is -6 this year, Durham -9 in plus/minus). The defense is pretty much a wash.
   47. Harveys Wallbangers  Posted: July 20, 2008 at 05:36 PM (#2865860)
Joe:

You do know that Prince has gone vegetarian and lost about 20 lbs?
   48. Fumbduck Joe Bivens  Posted: July 20, 2008 at 05:42 PM (#2865866)
No, I didn't know that. Good for him. I hope he can stick with it.
   49. NTNgod  Posted: July 20, 2008 at 06:09 PM (#2865888)
Now that the SF/MIL game is complete, it's been officially announced... Durham for Ford and Hammond, as said.
   50. Harveys Wallbangers  Posted: July 20, 2008 at 06:20 PM (#2865896)
Joe:

His wife is the instigator. So if he gives it up the Mrs. is gonna be p#ssed....
   51. Dan  Posted: July 20, 2008 at 06:22 PM (#2865897)
So Weeks to AAA to play regularly or to the pine?
   52. NTNgod  Posted: July 20, 2008 at 06:25 PM (#2865899)
I don't think they acquired Durham to be an everyday guy. Perhaps a little mixing and matching at 2B.
   53. BeanoCook  Posted: July 20, 2008 at 06:42 PM (#2865910)

I'll wager that Howard ends up with more MLB HR's than Fielder does.


2:1 odds on this, I'd take the bet. Prince has 4-5 years on Howard, more likely Prince hits 100 more HRs than Howard. Both will not be hitting by age 34, but again, age is a huge advantage for Prince. Prince is just a more talented all around hitter than Howard, this will keep him in the game longer than Howard. Howard has a little more power, but is not a good hitter, in the classic sense of the term "hitter".
   54. BeanoCook  Posted: July 20, 2008 at 06:47 PM (#2865917)
Joe:

You do know that Prince has gone vegetarian and lost about 20 lbs?


Harvey's, there is no way Prince has lost 20 lbs.

I doubt you have weighed him, either have I, but using the eyeball, he appears at least 20 lbs heavier this year than last. During one of the broadcasts last month, they did a side by side of Prince this year and last. They were looking at his swing to determine if there was anything mechanical in his swing that caused a drop in power. I noticed a dramatic difference in overall fitness, it is clear looking at his face and beltline, Prince is not leaner.

You can eat macaroni and cheese and call yourself a vegetarian.
   55. BeanoCook  Posted: July 20, 2008 at 06:57 PM (#2865927)
Career HR thru age 23 (to exact birthday)
Prince 84
Howard 0

Career HR thru age 24
Prince projected 120
Howard 2

Career HR thru age 25
Prince projected 155
Howard 24

Career HR thru age 26
Prince projected 190
Howard 82

Career DL Stints
Prince 0
Howard 2
   56. Howie Menckel  Posted: July 20, 2008 at 07:01 PM (#2865930)
Yeah, Durham as your 2B means that usually you have the better-hitting 2B than the other guy. There are worse things in life.

Durham quietly has cleared 2,000 hits now, 16th among active/DLd players.
   57. Harveys Wallbangers  Posted: July 20, 2008 at 07:09 PM (#2865936)
I was referencing the weigh-in at spring training which was the last time they offered an official weight.

And he wears his clothes so darn baggy I give you credit for noticing.
   58. NTNgod  Posted: July 20, 2008 at 07:13 PM (#2865939)
Speaking of eating habits, it appears the Giants ate about half of Durham's salary.

MIL J-S blog:
Durham said it was too weird to sit in the Giants dugout during the game, so he retreated to the clubhouse after three innings. But he told me he had no qualms about waiving his trade veto right.

"This was better for both teams," said Durham, who was acquired for minor leaguers Steve Hammond and Darren Ford. "The Giants are going young and the Brewers are dying for a playoff spot.

"This is a great team. I hope I can help them get to the promised land. I think it's a win-win situation for both teams.

Durham had a provision in his contract that paid him $200,000 if he was traded, and Brewers GM Doug Melvin said his club picked up that cost. But a Giants source said that team picked up about half of the $3 million remaining on Durham's contract.

Manager Ned Yost said he hadn't thought it out yet but would probably play Durham at second base "a couple of times" a week.
   59. PASTE is not impressed by Albert Pujols (Zeth)  Posted: July 20, 2008 at 07:20 PM (#2865946)
Sounds like Ned, all right.
   60. BeanoCook  Posted: July 20, 2008 at 07:20 PM (#2865948)
Harvey's, I agree Prince has been wearing a baggy, long sleeved-turtle neck outfit nearly every single day. So it is a total guess, but an educated guess. I do feel the weight was peaking in late June. His face/neck is carrying extra weight and his body jiggles more than ever.
   61. Walt Davis  Posted: July 20, 2008 at 07:23 PM (#2865950)
His wife is the instigator. So if he gives it up the Mrs. is gonna be p#ssed....

Present company excepted of course, but I hear tell some guys resolve this issue by giving up the Mrs.
   62. Brandon in MO (Fire Trey Hillman)  Posted: July 20, 2008 at 07:28 PM (#2865956)
Fielder will reach 300 lbs before he reaches 300 HR's.


"Give me some more oranges, NOW!"
"But Prince, all you do now is eat oranges and chocolate pudding"
   63. NTNgod  Posted: July 20, 2008 at 10:31 PM (#2866109)
From the Chris Snyder OUCH! division:
Brewers centerfielder Mike Cameron did something in the eighth inning that isn’t easy to do, and it was painful to watch. Cameron fouled off a pitch that bounced up and struck him directly in the groin. Cameron went to a knee, and it took several minutes for him to shake it off. “I’ve come close before, but that was a direct hit,” Cameron said.

The rare self-inflicted ball-bash. OW.
   64. NTNgod  Posted: July 20, 2008 at 10:34 PM (#2866112)
SF Chronicle:
When [Durham] learned Saturday that general manager Brian Sabean struck a deal to send him to Milwaukee, he did not want it announced until after Sunday's game so he would not have to suit up against the black and orange.

"It was out of respect for the guys in this locker room," Durham said as he stood inside of it for the final time.
...
Sources said the Giants will send the Brewers roughly half of the $3 million remaining on Durham's contract, which means the Giants still save $1.5 million.
...
"We stayed true to our word," Sabean said. "No matter where we were in the standings or what we thought our chances were, we needed at some point to turn our fortunes to our younger players. Our older players, if they were good enough in the market to be able to be acquired by somebody else, we were willing to do that. Thus, Ray is the first transaction."

The deal happened quickly, facilitated by a long friendship between Melvin and Sabean and the Brewers' presence in San Francisco, which created awkward moments for Durham on Sunday. He suited up as a Giant and spent the first few innings in the home dugout. He caught himself watching the scoreboard to see how the Cubs and Cardinals were doing but finally went inside.
   65. Justin T  Posted: July 20, 2008 at 11:04 PM (#2866124)
I wonder how complicit KNBR was in keeping this under wraps for Ray. In the morning, the ESPN updates were reporting the trade and the two players coming back from Milwaukee. Then the KNBR talent would come on and say it was a rumor and there was no confirmation. Then they reported that Keith Law confirmed the rumor, but still said they didn't have "confirmation." Same thing when the pregame started and once the game was under way.
   66. PASTE is not impressed by Albert Pujols (Zeth)  Posted: July 20, 2008 at 11:51 PM (#2866153)
If I were a major league GM, I'd make sure to nurture a friendship with Brian Sabean, too.
   67. NTNgod  Posted: July 20, 2008 at 11:54 PM (#2866156)
I think Melvin might have still been working in the Yankees FO when Sabean started with them.
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