He barley hit 50 home runs. What's the big deal?

MIL fans should be very afraid if fielder opts to go to arbitration next year. he's going to want howard type money, and he's going to get his ass handed to him.

fielder seems to have a lot more sand in his vagina than howard, but he's not on the right side of the rift, in any way. he has already played 2 full seasons, and right now, he is 2 years younger that howard was when he hit 58 in his first full season. by the time he is as old as howard is right now, fielder will have 5 years of service time, and will be preparing to enter free agency the next offseason, while howard is still 4 years from free agency.

if fielder doesn't wise up, this could get real ugly.

he's going to want howard type money, and he's going to get his ass handed to him.

If he repeats his performance this year, why won't he get Howard money?

If he repeats his performance this year, why won't he get Howard money?

Because he won't have a ROY or MVP.

If he repeats his performance this year, why won't he get Howard money?

fielder seems to have a lot more sand in his vagina than howard

if fielder doesn't wise up, this could get real ugly.

Yeah, imagine a guy wants to be paid what he is worth. He is right, his time will come and then the brewers fans will whine when he goes somewhere who will pay him what he thinks he is worth.

if fielder doesn't wise up, this could get real ugly.

How is this going to get ugly for Fielder? At the very least, Howard's win in arbitration is going to force the Brewers to bid around 8 million, which means that he will have the second biggest salary ever for a player eligible for arbitration for the first time even if Milwaukee wins.

Well, the Brewers do have options on Fielder so they can just let him rot in AAA...

He is right, his time will come and then the brewers fans will whine when he goes somewhere who will pay him what he thinks he is worth.

I don't expect Brewers fans to whine about losing Fielder. They seem pretty aware of the fact that 5'10" 280lb players have the shortest shelf life and 1st base is very replaceable.

Milwaukee will get more per dollar out of Fielder than just about any player ever.

Fielder reveals himself as a d*ck. Yes, he is being shortchanged now, but what about the huge contract he will likely sign as a free agent, which will probably see him being massively overpaid in his mid 30s?

If he would simply look at the overall picture, and realize that he will be a very rich man because he happens to possess a skill which has strong entertainment value, but does not really contribute much to the advancement of society, he might realize how fortunate he really is, and decide to be grateful for his lucky stars.

But no, he reveals himself as a d*ck...

How is this going to get ugly for Fielder? At the very least, Howard's win in arbitration is going to force the Brewers to bid around 8 million, which means that he will have the second biggest salary ever for a player eligible for arbitration for the first time even if Milwaukee wins

the overriding factor in howard's arbitration case was the fact that he should have had 2 extra years of service time. at age 28, he has 4 years until he hits free agency. fielder doesn't have that factor in his favor. fielder will be eligible for free agency at age 27, and he cannot use the main chip in howard's argument (the fact that the phillies held back his development by leaving him in AAA for 2 years before howard got his first regular MLB playing time).


howard's arbitration case had a lot more behind it than just his performance.

Here we see the exact same story about Cole Hamels.

But no, he reveals himself as a d*ck...

The guy is 23 ... give experience and maturity a chance and let the testosterone levels ebb a bit.

Heck, how would any of us feel in his spot? It's easy to say that we'd be thrilled just to play in the big leagues but when you see guys being paid millions more for doing a fraction of what you're doing I'm inclined to think it'd give us all pause.

I mean, how hard would it have been for the Brewers to toss him a few more dollars to let him know they agree he's special? Sure, he might fly away first chance he gets but how do you know a little extra may not pay off come FA time? A little investment never hurts. Penny-wise and pound foolish.

Best Regards

John

If he would simply look at the overall picture, and realize that he will be a very rich man because he happens to possess a skill which has strong entertainment value, but does not really contribute much to the advancement of society, he might realize how fortunate he really is, and decide to be grateful for his lucky stars.

Baseball players get paid a lot of money because they make other people even more money. It's not baseball players' fault that society values the services they provide very, very highly; It is society's fault (if there is any fault in this situation). I never have any problem with players who take reasonable means to get as much money as they can.

The only thing that bothers me is quotes like "I got a family to feed."

In Prince's case, don't forget he saw his dad's gambling problem. While obviously he has a choice to not get involved with gambling, he might be a little more sensitive to wanting to have his future squared away after watching his dad turn $50 million in to $0.

Russian, I understand all about how capitalism works, and I'm generally in favor of it.

But, capitalists can be right, and be d*cks, all at the same time. By that I mean, he's not a guy I would want to spend time with, despite the starpower appeal.

It's just my personal opinion.

All he said was that he wasn't happy, which is surely true. If I had expected a certain raise and instead got one that was somewhat less, I wouldn't be happy either. Perhaps he shouldn't have told the truth, but I don't think it really reflects that poorly on him. Perhaps we would wish that a guy wouldn't be so worried about money, but the reality is that most people are so I find it hard to judge an athlete more harshly than I would anybody else, despite the difference in pay scale.

One can conduct business and be a ####, or one can conduct business in an honest, gentlemanly fashion. The latter often results in making more money in the end, because people are more likely to want to give it to you.

But that's beside the point here; nothing Fielder has said makes him a ####.

They have Matt LaPorta. They should trade Fielder. To Kansas City. For say Mark Teahen. Okay, we'll throw in Jorge de la Rosa.

he's not a guy I would want to spend time with,

Bad news for you Duffster, that's not much of a concern for you ...

I don't think he comes off as a dick. He sees Howard pulling in 10 mil, and he is getting 500K for a similar skillset, he is going to be a bit pissed.
But is he willing to come out and say that he will take a home town discount come FA time, if the Brewers pay him well above the minimum now? If not, why should the Brewers go above what they are required to pay him?

Maybe he should ##### to the his union rep for negotiating a system where young, talented players make 10x less than marginal veterans. Maybe if the PA gave way a little on the issue of salary caps...

If he would simply look at the overall picture, and realize that he will be a very rich man because he happens to possess a skill which has strong entertainment value, but does not really contribute much to the advancement of society, he might realize how fortunate he really is, and decide to be grateful for his lucky stars.

I totally disagree with this. Who determines what contributes to the advancement of society? I really enjoy watching baseball games, and my life would be a little bit worse if they didn't exist. Baseball players get paid a lot because they're capable of entertaining me and a lot of other people, and that absolutely has value to society.

I also take issue with the comment that he "happens to possess a skill." If you take that point of view, no one is really responsible for anything, because it's just dumb luck that they ended up the way they did. Certainly a defensible position in theory, but not a pleasant one in my opinion, or particularly useful in practice.

Fielder makes a ton less than he is worth (to society even!) because the system is set up to the team's advantage at the start of a player's career. He could just suck it up and wait until he hits FA (and he really doesn't have a choice). However, as has been pointed out, players like him don't always age well, and maybe that big payday never comes.

It seems like the team would be well served by either paying him a bit more, or if they're afraid of getting nothing back for that, trying to work out a deal to buy out his arbitration years now.

It seems like the team would be well served by either paying him a bit more, or if they're afraid of getting nothing back for that, trying to work out a deal to buy out his arbitration years now.

We don't really know that to be true. I don't believe Prince explicitly said what would make him happy, but it was supposedly $900k (Howard's 2007 salary). $200k isn't insignificant to the Brewers, and if you do it for Prince, you'll have to do it for Braun later, and I don't know where that chain stops.

As far as offering an extension, I think it's likely that the subject has been broached and Boras has rejected it.

he might be a little more sensitive to wanting to have his future squared away after watching his dad turn $50 million in to $0.

well, in all fairness, the government helped vaporize at least $20 million of that kitty.

i'm not getting how fielder is a dick. please explain. you mean because how he points out the income difference between 3rd and 4th year players even if the younger player is better?

you mean how teams legally screw guys for 3 years then have to make up for lost time during FA?

no one HAS to sign free agents you know. no one HAS to offer them long term contracts you know.

but i guess you are one of those guys that thinks ballplayers shouldn't be paid much and the owners should get most of the MLB income while screwing the taxpayers as well.

- oh yeah. also please explain why fielder is gonna get his ass handed to him in arb if he continues to perform as well as he has

- and i am also damm tired of people who insist that ballplayers are only allowed to say certain phrases - you getting as bad as the sportswriters

One can conduct business and be a ####, or one can conduct business in an honest, gentlemanly fashion. The latter often results in making more money in the end, because people are more likely to want to give it to you.

I'd like this to be true, and I've even heard that it's true. It's just that I've never actually seen it to be true on anything other than the mom and pop, corner store scale.

I totally disagree with this. Who determines what contributes to the advancement of society?

Oh, come on. I love baseball. I love playing baseball and watching baseball. But as far as the advancement of society goes, it can't hold a candle to feeding the hungry, or treating diseases, or comforting the afflicted, and so on, and so on, and so on.

Fielder reveals himself as a d*ck. Yes, he is being shortchanged now, but what about the huge contract he will likely sign as a free agent, which will probably see him being massively overpaid in his mid 30s?

Writer reveals himself as a d*ck. Team can pay Fielder whatever they want, on a scale from $400k and up. Fielder's performance would easily be worth much more than $10M on open market. Similar players have received $900k from their clubs. Team chooses $650k, barely over the minimum.

Team reveals itself as a d*ck. It would only take a couple hundred thousand out of a nearly $100M budget to their most valuable player happy, who they desperately want to keep long term if they have any hope of building a consistent winner.

And no way Fielder ever ends up being "overpaid" since by definition a free agent is paid what the market determines his worth to be.

the overriding factor in howard's arbitration case was the fact that he should have had 2 extra years of service time. at age 28, he has 4 years until he hits free agency. fielder doesn't have that factor in his favor. fielder will be eligible for free agency at age 27, and he cannot use the main chip in howard's argument (the fact that the phillies held back his development by leaving him in AAA for 2 years before howard got his first regular MLB playing time).

howard's arbitration case had a lot more behind it than just his performance.

Is this really true? Can a player present information about performance he would have had if a team had only brought him up earlier?

Or are you saying that Howard can compare himself to 28 year olds where Fielder would have to compare himself to 24 year olds? Because that doesn't sound right either.

I thought--and I could be mistaken--that players in arbitration hearings used accomplishments relative to service time, not to age. And the whole "they held me back" argument doesn't sound like it would be admissible.

Can someone who knows about arbitration cases help me out some more here?

Aside: I think Fielder will make PLENTY of cash in his first year of arbitration, regardless of whether he wins, loses or negotiates a one-year or long-term deal. Hardly a reason for him to worry.

getting money has got exactly zero to do with the "advancement of society" because what people value enough to pay for is what they pay for. they don't value feeding the hungry, treating diseases, comforting anything enough to PAY a lot of money for it

why you think people can't get enough of paris freaking hilton and britney moron?

people care about entertainment which is why movie stars, singers, performers, athletes make the most money. and they care about certain kinds of entertainers which is why female athletes aren't paid any money worth a darn unless they are blond have big boobs and take most of their clothes off - just like singers/actresses

Frankly, I don't understand what "advancement of society" even means. It sounds like at least some people take it to just mean "doing good stuff". Feeding the hungry, etc, is certainly good stuff, but I don't see why being an entertainer is so readily dismissed. Yes, he has a small effect on a given person's happiness, but millions of people enjoy watching him play. I don't think that's trivial, or to be belittled, or to be used as a reason for him to just shut up and take whatever money the benevolent owner (who isn't exactly advancing society by this definition either) throws his way.

oh yeah -

the owners, who screws taxpayers is most DEFINITELY not doing no advancing to anyone but his own pockets and it is unbelieveable that posters here actually think they should make even more money off the players than they already do. i don't get this one bit

Maybe he should ##### to the his union rep for negotiating a system where young, talented players make 10x less than marginal veterans. Maybe if the PA gave way a little on the issue of salary caps...

Or maybe he can just continue to ***** about the team, continue to perform well, and then walk away once he is an FA....

I mean part of the problem, such as it is, is just that stuff like "feeding the hungry" take a lot of money. According to Charity Navigator people in the US gave almost $300 billion to charity in 2006.

I don't know how many times I've seen it stated or implied over the years that a few hundred thousand dollars here will amount to millions of dollars of goodwill down the line. I honestly think that is almost never the case. When Fielder has a little leverage in a few years, he's going to ask himself if he wants to stay. If the answer is yes, he's going to tell his agent to get him as much as he can, period. Does anyone really think that the deciding factor in whether to come down from his 5 year, $120 million demand to a 5 year, $116 million offer is going to be whether or not they gave him an extra $250k a few years earlier?

Yes, it's possible that a player could hold a grudge for a few years and decide that having his contract renewed was too insulting for him to stick around Milwaukee after year six, but I think that for any reasonable person that is going to be trumped by literally dozens of other factors.

As was said earlier, this is the way the collective bargaining agreement was negotiated. The club is within its rights to do this, and Milwaukee isn't the only one who has decided that the downside to limiting the cost of pre-arb players isn't that significant.

Team chooses $650k, barely over the minimum

I don't see how you can say paying 50% more than the minimum is "barely" over. If that $250k is so insignificant, what difference will the next $250k make?

#35 - I don't think paying prince a little more than the min. will buy them anygoodwill. But i do believe treating an employee in a manner he deams unfairly can very easily push the employee towards the door when he has the leverage. With the ends result being it can save millions, since if he is treated faitly he may decline to test the waters. As soon as he does though he is gone.

No free agency until year 6 is the foundation of competitive small market baseball, not revenue sharing.

The Brewers renewed Braun's contract at $455,000 and Hart's at $444,000. Braun made the minimum salary of $380,000 last season, when he batted .324 with 34 home runs and 97 RBI and won the NL rookie of the year award.

Asked if he had any hard feelings about the renewal, Braun said, "Of course not. I understand the system. You have to respect the way they do it. That's just the way it is.

"I'm not worried about it. It'll all even out."

Hart, who made $395,000 last season when he batted .295 with 24 homers and 81 RBI, wasn't worked up about his renewal, either.

"There are no hard feelings, either way," Hart said. "It's just part of it. You don't always agree."

Hart, who is eligible for arbitration after the season, said he would be open to a multi-year offer from the Brewers.

"I wouldn't be mad if they did," he said. "I'd like to be here awhile."

Braun and Hart. Grown-up reaction.

I don't see how you can say paying 50% more than the minimum is "barely" over. If that $250k is so insignificant, what difference will the next $250k make?

The key difference is that it's almost 30% less than what a player of similar achievements was given at the same stage (Howard). If Howard had gotten $650k, Prince would likely say little. Instead, he saw another team treat their player significantly better.

As was said earlier, this is the way the collective bargaining agreement was negotiated. The club is within its rights to do this, and Milwaukee isn't the only one who has decided that the downside to limiting the cost of pre-arb players isn't that significant.

Well, based on the achievements of this particular organization, what they think about the downside isn't likely to be too realistic. And no one is saying this one incident is going to cost them Prince Fielder's services when he is a FA, but it's going to be one factor that shapes his opinion of the organization and whether he wants to continue playing for it.

You can argue that Tom Brady wouldn't be constantly agreeing to modify his contract for New England to give them more salary cap space if he didn't feel so strongly that the extra salary cap space would be well used by the front office to improve the team. And if he didn't like his coach or GM, he might say screw it, I'm not compromising at all, maybe I'll get traded (or cut in typical NFL cap fashion) so I can go elsewhere.

The key difference is that it's almost 30% less than what a player of similar achievements was given at the same stage (Howard).

The distinction here is how similar. Howard won ROY and then MVP. There is a reason he set the bar for pre-arb. While the value of those awards can be questioned, the Brewers and presumably other teams put weight to them. I heard on a local radio show this morning that the Brewers pre-arb scale would have awarded an extra $200k to Prince had he won ROY and then MVP.

The key difference is that it's almost 30% less than what a player of similar achievements was given at the same stage (Howard). If Howard had gotten $650k, Prince would likely say little. Instead, he saw another team treat their player significantly better.

And yet, 3rd year superstar Hanley Ramirez got a measly $37,000 raise and he's not saying a word.

the overriding factor in howard's arbitration case was the fact that he should have had 2 extra years of service time
Will someone please explain to me how Ryan Howard should have 2 extra years of playing time? This myth just cracks me up.

The distinction here is how similar. Howard won ROY and then MVP. There is a reason he set the bar for pre-arb. While the value of those awards can be questioned, the Brewers and presumably other teams put weight to them. I heard on a local radio show this morning that the Brewers pre-arb scale would have awarded an extra $200k to Prince had he won ROY and then MVP.

Yea, the brainiacs at Milwaukee linked Fielder's pay to A VOTE OF SPORTSWRITERS, not actual performance. And a big reason he lost the MVP vote was because the Brewer brainiac trust didn't put together a team as good a team as two other candidates had! And if he had won both votes, they still would have given him less than Howard, a year later in a higher revenue year. Compliments to the brainiacs on coming up with a rational, emotionless, system designed to piss off their best player as much as possible.

And yet, 3rd year superstar Hanley Ramirez got a measly $37,000 raise and he's not saying a word.

If he spoke, he'd say "not a chance in hell I ever re-sign with this pop d*ck organisation".

Yea, the brainiacs at Milwaukee linked Fielder's pay to A VOTE OF SPORTSWRITERS, not actual performance.

That's obviously over the top. They did give him a raise based on his actual performance.

And if he had won both votes, they still would have given him less than Howard, a year later in a higher revenue year.

That is true, but I'm going to guess cost of living is higher in the Philly area than in Milwaukee. For the relatively small imaginary difference we are talking about, I think cost of living and a comparison of revenues would justify that.

Compliments to the brainiacs on coming up with a rational, emotionless, system designed to piss off their best player as much as possible.

Again, this is obviously over the top. The Brewers were under no obligation to give the raise they did, and their effort doesn't seem to be appreciated by the player. If their intention was to tick off their player, they would have given the least possible.

If he spoke, he'd say "not a chance in hell I ever re-sign with this pop d*ck organisation".

Hanley was more measured in his comments:

"That's OK," Ramirez said before the game. "Whatever they think I deserve. I don't care."

Ramirez becomes arbitration eligible next season and stands to make a big raise.

"I just want to stay here for my career. If not, whatever," Ramirez said. "I think they treat me good from the bottom all the way to the top. I feel comfortable here."

That's obviously over the top. They did give him a raise based on his actual performance

His actual performance is what he did on the field. A ROY or MVP award is based on sportswriters opinions of what he (and his team-mates) did on the field. Basing half of his potential raise on factors outside of his control is screwy at best.

Again, this is obviously over the top. The Brewers were under no obligation to give the raise they did, and their effort doesn't seem to be appreciated by the player. If their intention was to tick off their player, they would have given the least possible.

But the point is, they practically gave him the least possible. I don't think they could have irritated him much more giving him $400k than $650k. And while apparently Hanley doesn't care as much (or at least won't admit to such) good management dictates making some sort of rational cost/benefit analysis before hand. Perhaps even (OMG!) talking to Prince and gauging/setting expectations before hand. It may have been that $750k would have done the trick and the process would have made him feel even better about being part of the organization, and the additional $80k might have been well worth it.

But if they didn't it's no surprise that a baseball organization would take such a cavalier approach with their best player. The MLB isn't exactly the fount of great management techniques.

I can't wait for Fielder and Papelbon to rise up to union leadership in a few years and start demanding earlier arbitration or higher merit-based contract renewals.

In fact, I'd like to be in charge of an interview in 6 years and ask Fielder this question:

You've signed a 7 year, $210 million contract with the Yankees, in the process turning down a 5 year, $100 million offer from the Brewers. How much did the Brewers renewal of your contract back in 2008 affect your decision?

#48 is probably exactly how this will go down. Only sub Yankees for White Sox.

Asked what would be a fair salary for this year, Papelbon had his answer ready.

“Ryan Howard got $900,000 in his third year,” said Papelbon. “There it is. It’s staring (the Red Sox) right in the face.”

“I feel like I’ve gone to bat for them,” said Papelbon of the Red Sox, “and now it’s time for them to go to bat for me.”

“There will be Dustin Pedroia (after this season),” he said, “and Clay (Buchholz) and Jacoby (Ellsbury) the year after that. We need to take a stand and not let them take advantage of us just because they can.”

“I feel like I’ve gone to bat for them,” said Papelbon of the Red Sox,

haha, a baseball metaphor used in this situation in unintentionally funny. papel has 0 plate appearances in his career.

Herb Washington knows that pain.

Howard 06 vs. Fielder 07

RCG... 11.0 > 9.1
BtRNS. 62.4 > 49.2
OPS. 1.084 > 1.013
OPS+ 167 > 156
HR....58 > 51
RBI..149 > 118
MVP.. 1 > 0

Howard enjoys wide margins in almost everything that counts....(and yes, MVP votes count when it comes tied to get paid, whether we like it or not)

I don't have a problem with Howard getting 250K more than Fielder did at the same service time , and neither should anyone else, including Fielder.

File this in the "any ballplayer who doesn't act exactly the way I say I would act if I were in that situation that I'll never be in because I suck at baseball is a complete dick and deserves whatever comes to them" bin.

If Fielder wants to quit playing entirely and open a small olive oil shop, that's totally his choice and let's stop acting like the fact that he won't immediately listen to the people who "own" him and say "Thank you sir, may I have another?" is somehow hurting the poor, poor, ownership group.

The clsssy reactions of Braun and Hart in post 39 are exactly why I called Fielder a d*ck in post 10. It's not the he doesn't have the 'right' to feel the way he does, it's just that he lacks class and tact.

Some of the responses to my post are from people missing the point. I realize that Fielder is being paid much less than he could get as a FA. That fact has nothing to do with how Fielder chooses to present himself. And when I said he is a d*ck, it should be obvious that I am not giving a fact, only an opinion.

Work that hungry mule, Brewers. He's gone in 4 years either way, just when LaPorta should be hitting his prime. They're likely to get the best 6 years of his career for the fewest dollars. That might not be "fair," but it's smart and realistic.