Is Rajai Davis under contract for 2009? Is Emil Brown gone? I assume the "several promising young outfielders as options in right" are Travis Buck and Aaron Cunningham, one of which would need move to LF if/when Holliday gets traded mid-season.

Anyways I have mixed feelings about signing Giambi, particularly because I had really high hopes for Barton and this seems like a step backwards for the youth movement... but as was pointed out in the last Giambi/A's thread, by Walt Davis IIRC, this gives Barton a chance to get his act together at AAA. And Giambi is a fun guy to have on your team. I'm surprised though he's willing to sign for only 1 year.

Is Rajai Davis under contract for 2009

Of course. If they want him to be that is. Hes barely played in 200 MLB games. Hes light-years away from FA.

Ahh thanks, so they can always stash Rajai at AAA if necessary.

When I wrote post #1 I completely forgot about Matt Murton.

A's 2009 outfielders:

LF: Matt Holliday
CF: Ryan Sweeney
RF: Travis Buck / Aaron Cunningham platoon(?)
CF/PR: Rajai Davis
DH/LF: Jack Cust

AAA: Matt Murton

Please no more Emil Brown.

Is Chris Denorfia still on the team?

I think the Garret Anderson rumors were floated by the A's so this would become a merrier occasion. Maybe with the lower humidity, Giambi will look less greasy here.

The Red Sox could use one of those extra OF as their 4th OF guy.

Justin T - Yeah the Garret Anderson rumors freaked me out. There's gotta be NO WAY that's happening, right?.

Maybe with the lower humidity, Giambi will look less greasy here.

I would bet money that one of the reasons Giambi is returning to Oakland is so he can do more "hammering like a porn star" with the California girls.

Hes barely played in 200 MLB games. Hes light-years away from FA.

Since when is number of MLB games played a factor in determining eligibility for free agency?

I would bet money that one of the reasons Giambi is returning to Oakland is so he can do more "hammering like a porn star" with the California girls.

Well, that, and the likelihood that no one else extended him any offers.

Damn Giants. The A's get Giambi for cheap, and the Rays get Burrell for cheap, and meanwhile the Giants are currently planning to go with Travis Ishikawa at first base and Freddy Lewis in left field.

Not buying the Manny-to-S.F. rumors eh Steve? How would you feel about the Giants signing Manny? Depends on the contract?

Is Chris Denorfia still on the team?

Yup.

Giambi could push Daric Barton back to AAA, or Cust might land in the outfield with Giambi DHing. I wonder if Mark Ellis's range will help to offset Giambi's lack of mobility (moreso than a simple linear effect would suggest). My guess is that Barton's spring training will help determine the final decision. I'm a big Barton fan, so hopefully he gets his head on straight and makes the team.

Not buying the Manny-to-S.F. rumors eh Steve? How would you feel about the Giants signing Manny? Depends on the contract?

It always depends on the contract. If it was a one or two-year deal, why not?

Thanks Orodruin, re Denorfia.

Hmmm I would be surprised if Giambi AND Barton both made the ML roster as this would push one of the outfielders (Rajai, presumably) off the roster, and Rajai is really useful as the second half of the Cust-Rajai in-game combo. (Rajai routinely pinch ran for Cust last season, then went into CF for defense.) He could pinch run for Giambi as well.

Hes barely played in 200 MLB games.

As Steve hints, it's based on service time (i.e. time on the 25-man roster or the ML DL), not number of games. According to Cots, Davis had just under 1 full season before last year. I don't know how much service time he added last year (but he had no minor-league PAs so I assume he added a full year).

But, yes, not a lot of position players would hit FA or even arb with as few as 200 games so it was a pretty safe bet. Barring missing entire seasons to injury, a player will have to have had some playing time in at least 6 seasons to be FA-eligible (which happens after 6 years of service time). Of course players can become FAs sooner just by being released.

Ahh thanks, so they can always stash Rajai at AAA if necessary.

I wouldn't think so. Surely he's out of options by now (the ability to keep a player on the 40-man roster but not the 25-man roster and send back and forth as much as they want and a team can only do that in three seasons), given his age and number of professional seasons. If he had options left the Giants likely would have stashed him at AAA and not lost him to the A's.

They can always outright him (or whatever that's called) to remove him from the 40-man roster (I assume this hasn't happened yet) in which case he can either accept the assignment to the A's minors or become an FA and sign elsewhere. So they might stash him in AAA but only with his consent.

Thanks Walt you're a fount of information.

If it was a one or two-year deal, why not?

The obvious downsides are you don't let Ishikawa (or someone) develop, and you don't have that $ which could be spent on player development or extending Lincecum (or someone) instead. But I agree the Giants should sign him if it were only 1 or 2 years, since the division is so weak that adding Manny may be enough for the Giants to win it, and with the short contract the Giants would avoid Manny's further decline. But would Manny sign with the Giants for 1 or 2 years?

The obvious downsides are you don't let Ishikawa (or someone) develop

Ishikawa? Pass. If the Giants had anybody at 1B or LF worth developing at the ML level over the next couple of years, this would be an issue. It isn't.

But would Manny sign with the Giants for 1 or 2 years?

Unlikely, of course, but that shouldn't stop them from making the offer.

Blah. Haven't been a fan of the idea of signing Giambi. But whatever, I suppose. It's only money, and not a whole lot of it. Barton could probably use the time at AAA, too.

If we're really going to go for it in 09, though, they ought to pony up the cash for Ben Sheets so we can have a real rotation. And not one that's, say, counting on four of Dana Eveland, Josh Outman, Dallas Braden, Gio Gonzalez, and Sean Gallagher to fill in after Justin Duchscherer's 150 innings.

I think we should sign Sheets to a 2-year deal if we plan to go for it in '10. I don't think Sheets is going to be very useful to anybody next season.

You'll need to sign Holliday to a 1-year extension, too.

Nah, Cahill and Co. will fill out the rotation and F-Mart will be hitting dingers and running down balls in his first full season after acquiring him for Holliday at the '09 deadline.

Nah, Cahill and Co. will fill out the rotation and F-Mart will be hitting dingers and running down balls in his first full season after acquiring him for Holliday at the '09 deadline.

Damn you!

Here's how I see the 25-man shaking out right now.

Locks
OF: Cust, Holliday, Sweeney
IF: Chavez, Crosby, Ellis, Barton, Suzuki, Bowen
SP: Eveland, Gallagher, Duke, Gio Gon
RP: Ziegler, Devine, Casilla, Brown, Blevins

Probables
OF: Buck, Davis
IF: Hannahan, Pennington
SP: Braden
RP: Outman, Schroder

If you add Giambi, the simple thing to do is to demote Barton and use Hannahan as a defensive caddy at first. If you want to carry both Giambi and Barton, then you probably have to get rid of an outfielder. The most likely thing to do in that case is just outright Davis. Davis is a great 25th man, but you don't want your hands tied because of Rajai F'in Davis.

Another possibility is that Chavez isn't ready for the season and starts the year on the 60-day DL. Then you can carry both Giambi and Barton, which forces Cust to the OF and allows you to keep Davis on the roster. The problem with that plan is that Buck becomes a fourth OF, which I'm sure isn't what the A's envision for him long-term. Sweeney would be a good trade candidate in this outfield, but the problem is that he's the only real CF on the 25-man roster.

Oof.

Nah, Cahill and Co. will fill out the rotation and F-Mart will be hitting dingers and running down balls in his first full season after acquiring him for Holliday at the '09 deadline.

Naw, F-Mart would hit something like .270/.290/.450, play great defense, and Beane would trade him.

Naw, F-Mart would hit something like .270/.290/.450, play great defense, and Beane would trade him.

Call me when Carlos Gonzalez ISOs 180.

If you want to carry both Giambi and Barton, then you probably have to get rid of an outfielder. The most likely thing to do in that case is just outright Davis

A's have a couple of other OFers like that, I think, to make decisions on (out of options) - Murton, Denorfia...

A's have a couple of other OFers like that, I think, to make decisions on (out of options) - Murton, Denorfia...

I'm not sure that Denorfia's out of options. I believe his contract was purchased in 2005, and he used options in 2006 and 2008. Rajai has been widely reported to be out of options.

Ahh, that's right - Denorfia pulled a Snelling all of 2007 (on the 60-day all year), so he gobbled up MLB service time, but didn't see the minors.

A's have a couple of other OFers like that, I think, to make decisions on (out of options) - Murton, Denorfia...

Murton's got an option left as well. After being called up by the Cubs in 2005, Murton spent the rest of the season and all of 2006 in the bigs.

That's right. Although Murton spent some time down in the minors in August 2005, it didn't add up to 20 days after he was added to the 40 man roster, so an option year wasn't consumed.

From the Cubs' website:
- 07/07/05: contract purchased
- 08/19/05: optioned to minors
- 08/30/05: recalled to majors

As Excal said, he spent all of 2006 in the majors, but was optioned in 2007 and 2008 (assignments lasted longer than 20 days).

2007:
- 06/13/07: optioned to minors
- 07/27/07: recalled to majors

2008:
- 03/30/08: optioned to minors
- 04/19/08: recalled to majors
- 05/01/08: optioned to minors
- 06/17/08: recalled to majors
- 07/08/08: traded to Oakland, placed on active roster
- 07/27/08: optioned to minors


So Oakland can option him to the minors in 2009 without exposing him to waivers.

The A's should option Murton to Korea. He's fairly useless to the team. Also, no thank you on Giambi, but I guess I'll learn to live with it. Nomar makes more sense for the team. A right handed hitter to spell Cust at DH who can play multiple positions in a pinch and, if you believe in miracles, could stand at the SS position and not break himself in half for somewhere between 50 to 100 games. There's a good chance he adds no value, but there's also a decent chance he actually helps the team without blocking any interesting young players. C'mon Billy, dream a little.

2009 CHONE Projections
-Giambi: .239/.385/.475, +20 R/150
-Garciaparra: .273/.329/.420, -6 R/150

Garciaparra's alleged versatility (he's horrible defensively everywhere) is not worth the steep decline in production, IMHO.

Giambi offers a significant upgrade over Barton for 2009, so a one year deal makes sense.

I agree that Murton's got limited utility for the A's. But stash him at AAA and hope he rediscovers how to hit for (even modest) power. He could be a useful spare part if he gets himself back on track. If not, it's not like there's much of a market for him until/if he re-establishes himself so the only cost of keeping him is a 40 man roster spot.

Garciaparra's alleged versatility (he's horrible defensively everywhere) is not worth the steep decline in production, IMHO.

I think this is overstated. The sample size for his defense the last couple of years is small and his #'s at SS--small sample, again--aren't horrible. He obviously doesn't project to hit better than Giambi, but his competition is Bobby Crosby, not Daric Barton. .329/.420 is light years better than what the A's got last year at SS. (Petit's big winter league season is cause for hope, though.)

As for Murton...was he hurt last year? 2 HR's, I would agree, is anomalous for him. Still, if he ends up on the 25 man roster for more than a week at a time, the season will have been a disaster. I see Murton behind the following on the depth chart: Buck, Cunningham, Sweeney, Patterson, Denorfia. Then you have Cust who can pretend to play outfield if they want to put Giambi at DH and bring back Barton. Basically, Matt Murton in Oakland is my cue to watch more TCM on demand.

I think this is overstated. The sample size for his defense the last couple of years is small

The sample size is so small because he's been possibly the most injury-prone player in baseball for the past several years (with competition from Eric Chavez and Bobby Crosby). By all visual accounts, Garciaparra has looked terrible defensively at 1B/3B/SS so I don't put any stock in his positive UZR at SS in very brief playing time last year.


BTW, Crosby's 2009 projection: .239/.303/.357, -19 R/150

So Garciaparra (-6 R/150) represents about an upgrade of about 1 win offensively (over the course of entire season), which I'm fairly confident that he'd give up on defense (Crosby is about league average defensively). I agree that the A's could use an upgrade at SS, but they need to get someone who actually improves the position (or at least provides depth). Complementing an injury-prone player with another--and one whose defensive deficiencies essentially negate his offensive improvement--does not make any sense to me.

Instead, why not Orlando Cabrera (plus Giambi replacing Barton for 1 year)? His 2009 projection (.274/.332/.373, -13 R/150) represents a modest offensive upgrade over Crobsy (about half a win) and his above-average glove is worth at least half a win. In 2008, A's shortstops combined for .242/.303/.357 with below average defense. There doesn't seem to be much of a market for him because the White Sox offered him arbitration. If his price falls enough, he might represent one of the best values on the FA market.

BTW, Crosby's 2009 projection: .239/.303/.357, -19 R/150

I think the basis of our disagreement is that you may put more faith in the projections than I do. I love PECOTA and Zips, but I also take them with a grain of salt. Crosby projects to have a .303 oba only because of his 2005 #'s. For me, realistically, he's a sub .300 oba player because that's what he's been the last 3 years. My great fear with Crosby isn't that he's injury prone, it's that he may not be anymore. In contrast, Garciaparra's last productive offensive season was 2006. Defensively, neither player is good anymore, but I don't see Nomar as much worse than Crosby out there. The question then, is who has more potential upside for 2009, as neither player will be around for 2010. I think Nomar represents the better upside. If he gets hurt, Pennington or Petit is plan B. The problem with Crosby is that he may not get hurt. I would bet a coke that while Nomar played, he would be an upgrade on Bobby Crosby. So...Nomar+Petit > Bobby Crosby. Of course, Petit > Crosby may also be true.

If Cabrera weren't type-A, I think he's already be an Athletic. But he is a Type-A and he's not worth losing a pick for. Instead they should use that money to hire Mr. Miyagi to serve as Eric Chavez' masseuse. The most dperessing thing about missing out on Furcal is that the team really needs a productive Chavez again.

Not that its terribly important, but the numbers that I've been citing in this thread have been 2009 CHONE projections, not PECOTA or ZIPS.

Anyway, I just don't see Garciaparra as any sort of replacement plan for SS. Since he's left Boston (mid-2004), every time he attempts to play SS he winds up missing the better part of the season (and even then, 120 games seems to be his ceiling). The only time when he's stayed somewhat healthy has been as a 1B. Even 3B appears to be a stretch for him now (never mind the fact that he's been terrible defensively everywhere, save for the a 30 game blip last year at SS).

If there's a role for Garciaparra on the A's (or any other team), then it's to provide depth at 1B/3B/DH, not shortstop. In other words, he'd be competing against Jack Hannahan, not Crosby. While Garciaparra represents a slight offensive upgrade over Hannahan (.237/.333/.367, -8 R/150), Hannahan's worth about 2 full runs over Garciaparra defensively (generously assuming that Garciaparra rates only -10 UZR/150 at 1B/3B).

I suppose that there might be a roster spot for Garciaparra as he would seem to complement both Chavez and Hannahan (LH's with superior defense), although I'm not really sure that he's the best available option for that type of a role. Moreover, I still don't see how Garciaparra could/should figure into the A's plans for SS.

If they can get Cabrera for one or two years at a good rate, then they should be willing to sacrifice the draft pick IMHO. He offers a clear improvement over Crosby, whereas Garciaparra would just be trading one major deficiency for another.

ESPN/Olney reporting that the contract is $4M for 2009, with a $6.5M option on 2010 with a $1.25M buyout, so basically $5.25M/year with the A's deciding whether that's over one year or two.

Honestly, unless you're convinced that Daric Barton is right now a major league first baseman, I don't see what's not to like about this deal. It's a clear offensive upgrade, and if Barton looks like he's ready to go or Giambi falls off a cliff, they can pretty much cut their losses on the deal at any time.

Honestly, unless you're convinced that Daric Barton is right now a major league first baseman, I don't see what's not to like about this deal. It's a clear offensive upgrade, and if Barton looks like he's ready to go or Giambi falls off a cliff, they can pretty much cut their losses on the deal at any time.

Agreed. A nice, easy to cut bait contract. Hopefully, Barton will make good and the A's never have to consider picking up the option. Welcome back Jason, I guess. You will NOT be referred to as the Giambino anymore. #### that ####.

So the question is: Does he keep the Super Trooper stache or go back to his pre-pinstripe goatee?