Cliff Lee was dominant. That's the story of the game. Also, the Yanks bullpen is a trainwreck outside of Mariano and...Damaso Marte?

"Complete Lee." Oh, well done. Much better than the stuff we were guessing at in Game Chatter.

So is Lee going to throw 4 complete games?

There goes that whole home-field advantage, Phillies can't hit lefties thing the general press were talking about...

Well, to be fair Softballer, we were thinking of what the NY Post would be. So...


It's like this: If Pedro and the Phils take the game tomorrow, the Yanks are done for.

Let's hope for 4 and done.

Let's hope for 4 and done.

So you want less baseball and more off-season? Your priorities are all screwed up.

Which was more degrading -- Lee's ho-hum catch, or Lee's slap-on-the-ass tag to Posada?

Which was more degrading -- Lee's ho-hum catch, or Lee's slap-on-the-ass tag to Posada?

Matsui's stumbling around on the Cano popup.

I didn't even get to watch this -- radio for me -- but it was an extremely enjoyable game to listen to.

I didn't even get to watch this -- radio for me -- but it was an extremely enjoyable game to listen to.

It was a pretty good game to watch (other than the result) for the first seven innings. Lee was outstanding and Sabathia was great. The last couple innings were kind of sloppy, but inconsequentially so.

I actually spent half an hour standing at the counter in a liquor store watching the game with the counter guys and like four other customers. It was fun. I haven't been in a World Series city since 2002.

Oddly, the crowd was pretty evenly split in that liquor store.

Wasn't the ho-hum catch an Infield Fly Rule play?

Wasn't the ho-hum catch an Infield Fly Rule play?

Nope. Only a runner on first.

Yeah, infield fly requires there to be no way to avoid the double play if the fielder lets the ball drop. With a runner on first, the guy who hits the pop up can almost always be standing on first base by the time it's fielded. So there's no need for there to be an infield fly rule in that situation.

Unless your name is Hideki Matsui or Robinson Cano, in which case you wander off first base and drop your head/jog to first base respectively.

In the case of a ground ball and a runner on first, am I right in assuming the runner on first can be tagged even while he's still standing on the first base bag and be called out prior to the hitter reaching first?

Which was more degrading -- Lee's ho-hum catch, or Lee's slap-on-the-ass tag to Posada?

I'm guessing it was more like the 6 hit, 10 K performance that was more degrading..

Seriously though, Lee knew his stuff was working and he let everyone know it.

Thanks. What I meant was, the runner has to hold the bag in that situation. Worst case scenario, Lee flubs it and has to pick it up and throw to second before the runner realizes what happened and runs 90 feet.

Not the Infield Fly Rule; that was sloppy late-night talk. But the out wasn't really in jeopardy.

So you want less baseball and more off-season? Your priorities are all screwed up.

Exactly. I say they hold the WBC every year so the Series always has a chance of extending into November. Then the offseason will never be more than about 3.5 months. Fine by me.

So you want less baseball and more off-season?

Not normally, but this year, I'm willing to be unconventional.

Actually, I just want a good series. That said, I'm not normally a Yankee-hater, or even a Yankee-disliker- but this October is a bit different.

Less Yankees baseball. Try being a fan in TB, Balt or Tor and enjoy all the talk and games with the Sox and Yanks. More baseball with less Red Sox and Yankees is fine with me.

Well, to be fair Softballer, we were thinking of what the NY Post would be. So...

"Lee's our daddy"?

Seriously though, Lee knew his stuff was working and he let everyone know it.

awesome, and accurate line.. after the second inning I was saying pretty much that the yanks were ###### while lee was pitching..

I also got attacked because I would have pulled lee in the ninth and people were arguing "in the old days" etc.. and my answer was if you can't expect your bullpen to get 3 outs before 4 runs, you don't belong in the post season...

I've never seen a pitcher behave so bad-ass-ly on the mound as I did tonight. Lazy-chill catch, tag on the ass, behind-the-back snag, awesome I-know-something-you-don't-know look. Cliff Lee is the man. Go Phils!

CHRIS BERMAN is anchoring ESPN's coverage of the world series?

/shoots self in face

CHRIS BERMAN is anchoring ESPN's coverage of the world series?

/shoots self in face

LOL...####### hilarious....

Interesting game. Perhaps I'm overstating this but I thought Girardi missed an opportunity by not going to Rivera in the 8th after Hughes had walked the two guys to start the inning (still a 2-0 game at that point). Instead he fools around with Marte and Robertson. Granted Marte got both of his hitters out, but once Robertson gave up two more runs to make it 4-0 (with no help from the plate umpire), the game was effectively over. I just think you need to shut the door on that inning right there. Rivera had two days of rest. You don't know if it will be 10-0 tomorrow. My philosophy given that there are a finite number of games in a series is that you must try your best to win each postseason game (*) as long as it is still winnable. You cannot ever give up on a close game, to "save Rivera" for the next game when he may not be needed.

(*) Within reason. But I think "using my best reliever to keep a game close" is within reason.

For Manuel's part, I thought he needlessly let Lee pitch the 9th, though I suppose it doesn't matter much. But it's 6-0 so unless you don't think your bullpen can pitch one inning with better than a 54.00 ERA you really need to let them finish it.

Not sure what Hideki was doing on that infield pop-up that the umps needed to huddle for. Once the 2B ump signaled that Rollins had caught the ball -- and the ump signaled immediately -- Matsui needs to get back to first base. Plain and simple. Just like Posada and Cano in the baserunning gaffe at third, now you have Matsui and (again) Cano asleep at the switch at first. I could see if the 2B ump did not signal a catch, but he did signal that.

Not sure why Cap'n Jetes was making Phil Coke screw around with the runner at second in a 5-0 game. Since when does a runner on second need so much attention?

As for CC, I thought he struggled but managed to grind it out, as they say. The two pitches to Utley were mistakes with two strikes, fat pitches over the heart of the plate, and you can't do much about that.

But the Yanks gave away their edge. Home field PLUS the edge that Sabathia gave them over a heavily left-handed core (Utley, Howard, Ibanez). I think they really needed to win CC's starts because Burnett could struggle against the lefty core (Gaudin too, if they're going four starters deep). There's no doubt that this win swung the edge to Philly, even beyond the fact that it was a win.

It was amazing to see Utley step up and overcome the devastating effect of a really bad hair day.

I just think you need to shut the door on that inning right there.

Which reminds me of 2004...

Javier Vazquez replaces Kevin Brown pitching;

J. Damon J. Vazquez Home Run (Fly Ball); Millar Scores; Mueller Scores; Cabrera Scores

4 runs, 2 hits, 0 errors, 1 LOB. Red Sox 6, Yankees 0.

Repoz, I'm on record as saying that Torre should have gone to Rivera right there, in the first inning, instead of Vazquez.

I'm dead serious. It's an elimination game. And once the game gets out of hand -- I don't care if it's the first inning or the 8th -- you're toast.

As I recall, Torre did go to Rivera later in the game, for what was in effect mop-up work.

I also got attacked because I would have pulled lee in the ninth and people were arguing "in the old days" etc.. and my answer was if you can't expect your bullpen to get 3 outs before 4 runs, you don't belong in the post season...

I would have gotten Lee out of there too. I know Manuel isn't going to use him on three days rest, but what if you want Lee to get an out or five in Game 3, or 6, or 7--don't you want him as rested as possible?

My main problem with November games is that the chances are too high of crazy-cold weather. Those World Series games in Philadelphia last year were memorable...in the wrong way. The fact that it was basically sleeting outside last year in Phily, and that MLB was afraid to postpone the games because it's not like the weather was going to get a lot better as you go deeper into November.

I think we're lucking out this week - I believe it is supposed to be seasonably warm the next several days - but baseball was not meant to be played outdoors in 35-degree weather. At least, play a game or two during the day, when it is warmest...

Repoz, I'm on record as saying that Torre should have gone to Rivera right there, in the first inning, instead of Vazquez.

I'm dead serious. It's an elimination game. And once the game gets out of hand -- I don't care if it's the first inning or the 8th -- you're toast.

As I recall, Torre did go to Rivera later in the game, for what was in effect mop-up work.

They say many geniuses are insane. I'd go with that defense, Ray.

Try being a fan in TB, Balt or Tor and enjoy all the talk and games with the Sox and Yanks.

Tampa Bay won the pennant last year. Come the World Series, only two teams will be playing - it isn't like there won't always be some good teams and great baseball towns on the outside looking in. If you're a baseball fan you enjoy it. The Phils and Yanks are probably in the bottom 5 of teams I'd root for and I watched every pitch. I mean, live how you like, but if you can't get up for the World Series, I don't consider you a baseball fan - you might be a Rays fan or Mets fan or whatever, but not a baseball fan. Which is unfortunate, it's a great game no matter who is playing. And people will talk about Lee's performance tonight for a long time.


I thought pulling Lee might have been a good move but a) it wasn't 11-0; b) he was cruising. That was a fairly efficient outing. I'd guess one less inning wouldn't make him any more effective for a short outing in game 3 than he will be now. Add in the very good chance that there will be a postponement in the near future and I'm good with it.


Ray, I agree, I thought Mo should have been in in the 8th. You've got to get through the heart of the Phillies line up and let your lesser pitchers deal with the tail end.

Does Lee always have a bit of attitude on the mound?

And who are these four players traded to the Indians for Lee and Francisco? Unless they're hot prospects, the trade is a huge winner for Philly even if Lee never pitches again. Maybe even if they are.

If I'm a Yankee fan, or worse yet, a Yankee, being down 1-0 is not a big deal. Contemplating that bullpen, that's a big deal.

As to Marte, I dunno if he's any better than the rest. As soon as he came in, the strike zone got really really big, and as soon as he left, it returned to its normal size. Bizarre.

Still and all, I still think the Yankees win it in 4.

Still and all, I still think the Yankees win it in 4.

You are quite the optimist.

I would have pulled lee in the ninth

I would have too. But now the Yankees have used several relievers in a 6-1 loss, and the Phillies haven't used any, which might become a factor tonight. Nothing terribly wrong with letting Lee go the distance in that strategic situation, IMO.

For what it's worth, Lee had 106 pitches through 8 innings, so he threw 16 pitches in the 9th. I'd let him pitch the 9th, becuase the benefits of not having to even touch your bullpen can be enjoyed over the next two or three games. If Lee is a little less effective in his final start of this series because of the extra 16 pitches, you only feel the cost of the decision in a small part of one game.

And, finally, let's keep this "one extra inning of pitching" thing in perspective. Entering the 9th inning of last night's game, Lee had thrown 3516 pitches during games this season. Those extra 16 pitches are not the difference if he doesn't pitch well on November 1st...

Still and all, I still think the Yankees win it in 4.

A winner is you!

Re: The discussion of the headline, the Yahoo baseball page has the headline "Sucker-Punched" with A-Rod swinging and missing. The deck is "A-Rod, who struggled in the World Series opener, says the Yankees better figure out Cliff Lee or else." Makes me wonder what the A-Rod story will be if the Yankees don't win.

Ray, regarding going to Mariano in the 2nd in 2004, you need to get 7 or so more innings and Mariano can't pitch all of them. Therefore, you might as well get the early innings with your other guys and save Mariano for when he's more accustomed to pitching, IMHO.

Edit: Also from that article, this is a great quote from CC: “Three walks,” he said, ruing his lack of command. “You know, I was behind everybody. I wish I could stand here and say it was two pitches. … That’s not at all how I was pitching in this postseason.”

If Pedro and the Phils take the game tomorrow, the Yanks are done for.

Remember 1996!

CC did pretty well without his A+ stuff, but, man, the 0-2 pitch on the second homer to Utley was just brutal. Posada called for a breaking ball away and fo soe reason CC shook him off and threw a fastball in.

The return on Lee was pretty middling. Carlos Carrasco has top of the rotation stuff, but seems incapable of corralling that stuff, especially against advanced competition. He could still end up developing as a rotation anchor, a sort of poor man's Javier Vazquez (pre-2009): elite stuff, but variable results, but still a guy you'd love to have in your rotation over the course of a season (though maybe not in a big game). Jason Knapp is really young, really big, and has really big time stuff, but also is a long ways off, and had to be shut down w/ minor arm issues this year. He and Carrasco are the major parts. I see Lou Marson and Jason Donald as nice complementary players, most likely backups, though nice ones; I think of them as future Chris Coste and Joe Inglett types.

Hughes actually threw two nice curveballs to Rollins that Rollins barely fouled off. The problem was brutal brutal fastball command. oy.

Remember 1996!

At least BTF will now approve if I stab Leyritz in the neck.

Darren, Re 2004: I just think you need to survive that first inning and live to tell about it. Otherwise you're done. You KNOW there are bases loaded and you're still in the game there. You can't say what the rest of the game will bring.

Bunyon,

I agree completely. I'm a Mets fan (so this is a brutal series) but I am a BASEBALL fan and I'll be up as late as my body will let me. My 3 month old daughter is leading to fatigue in our house, but I made it through last night. You're also right that Lee's performance is a hell of a memorable one. If that had been in a clinching game it might be an all-time type of performance to talk about.

The Yankees are in this thing even IF they lose tonight. They are more than capable of taking two out of three in Phillie and bringing it back to NY for Game 6, at which point pretty much anything can happen.

However, it would be a better idea for them to beat Pedro like a Dominican Salsa Tambourine.

I, personally, have always conteded that if you have an ACE closer there is no reason not to start him in a Game 7 and let him pitch his max innings. Especially if you don't have an ace pitcher set to start. Innings are innings, and if you start him you guarantee he is pitching important innings. Worry about the ninth when the ninth comes.

The return on Lee was pretty middling. Carlos Carrasco has top of the rotation stuff, but seems incapable of corralling that stuff, especially against advanced competition.

Yeah, that's what tends to happen with 22-year-olds--even the good ones.

Has Manuel's reasoning for Pedro in game 2 been discussed anywhere? If so, what was the verdict?

Not sure what Hideki was doing on that infield pop-up that the umps needed to huddle for.

Rollins confused everyone by stepping on second before throwing to first. It made it look as though he hadn't caught it, even though the call was made right away.

-- MWE

Perhaps I'm overstating this but I thought Girardi missed an opportunity by not going to Rivera in the 8th after Hughes had walked the two guys to start the inning (still a 2-0 game at that point). Instead he fools around with Marte and Robertson.

You might be right, but it's so close, it's tough to criticize. Robertson letting his two guys on was unexpected - the vast majority of times, he gets the job done and we're not talking about it. Tonight might be a 10-0 game, but there's a good chance it won't and Rivera will be used for 2 innings. I think the bigger problem was not using Coke vs. Ibanez. You were using the platoon advantage all inning, and then you stop with the bases loaded? The defense to that is Utley and Howard might have gotten up again, and you need to have a lefty for them, and Ibanez doesn't have huge splits.

I would have gotten Lee out of there too. I know Manuel isn't going to use him on three days rest, but what if you want Lee to get an out or five in Game 3, or 6, or 7--don't you want him as rested as possible?

I agree with this. The odds are tremendously high that there will be a situation in game 3 with higher leverage than that 9th inning. If you've reduced his chances of throwing in game 3 (and possibly 6 and 7), it will probably turn out to have been wasteful.

CC did pretty well without his A+ stuff, but, man, the 0-2 pitch on the second homer to Utley was just brutal. Posada called for a breaking ball away and fo soe reason CC shook him off and threw a fastball in.

I said to the TV, "Breaking ball," then saw the sign for fastball inside and said, "Huh, fastball." And it was a fastball, but it surely wasn't in. Terrible pitch. Never the less, C.C. did his job. Lee just did a better job. No shame in that.

It's always good when less evil triumphs over evil.

I just think you need to shut the door on that inning right there.

I understand the point - I just don't think Girardi needed to use Rivera to do it. Joba would have been an acceptable alternative. (I'm half-wondering if Giradi isn't considering starting Joba somewhere down the road.)

I think the bigger problem was not using Coke vs. Ibanez. You were using the platoon advantage all inning, and then you stop with the bases loaded?

I agree. If you're going to take Marte out against Werth, then you might as well go all in against Ibanez.

-- MWE

I'm currently watching A.J. Pierzynski on ESPN as a guest analyst talking about Cliff Lee vs. Sabathia last night...and the shocking part is that I think he's actually doing a really good job.

Not sure what Hideki was doing on that infield pop-up that the umps needed to huddle for.

Rollins confused everyone by stepping on second before throwing to first. It made it look as though he hadn't caught it, even though the call was made right away.

I disagree. I haven't seen a replay since last night, but I thought the umpire hesitated to make the out call until AFTER Rollins stepped on second. At that point, what are Matsui and Cano supposed to think other than that Rollins had short-hopped the ball and was trying for two (which is clearly what he intended to do)?

I haven't seen a replay since last night, but I thought the umpire hesitated to make the out call until AFTER Rollins stepped on second.

I was listening to the Phillies' broadcast on XM, and McCarthy indicated after viewing the replay that the umpire made the call before Rollins got to second.

-- MWE

Darren, Re 2004: I just think you need to survive that first inning and live to tell about it. Otherwise you're done. You KNOW there are bases loaded and you're still in the game there. You can't say what the rest of the game will bring.

the grand-slam was in the 2nd inning.

I was listening to the Phillies' broadcast on XM, and McCarthy indicated after viewing the replay that the umpire made the call before Rollins got to second.

Yep. The ump called it right away. I'm not sure why they all had to huddle afterwards. It was an easy call. Matsui just got punked by Rollins is all.

Not to mention that they brought in Javy Vazquez, who's a pretty darn good pitcher. He'd probably be one of the top 5-10 relievers in the Majors.

It was interesting hearing McCarver rave on and on about Chase Utley and playing hurt and how he was a throwback and a gamer. I think McCarver's just a slut for All-star infielders.

I'm not sure why they all had to huddle afterwards.

Because Rollins confused not only Matsui, but also the 1B umpire, who initially called Cano safe.

-- MWE

Yep. The ump called it right away. I'm not sure why they all had to huddle afterwards. It was an easy call. Matsui just got punked by Rollins is all.

I don't place much blame on Matsui. The whole thing happened very fast, almost simultaneously. In watching the game, it was easy to understand why Matsui thought that he was out on the force out at second. I had to look at the replay to see that the ball was caught in the air, since originally it looked to me like it bounced.

I'm currently watching A.J. Pierzynski on ESPN as a guest analyst talking about Cliff Lee vs. Sabathia last night...and the shocking part is that I think he's actually doing a really good job.

A.J. does a weekly guest spot on one of the Chicago radio stations, and he's easily the most entertaining and informative current athlete on there, by a long shot. I suspect he'll slide easily into a booth or studio once he's done, and he'll be really good until we get tired of him/he becomes too far removed from his playing days.

Has Manuel's reasoning for Pedro in game 2 been discussed anywhere? If so, what was the verdict?

The verdict among Phillies fans is: no faith in Hamels. That may or may not be the case, but I personally like the decision b/c (A) the Game 2/Game 6 guy plays in only DH games, and getting Hamels ABs at Pedro's expense is a significantly better use of your resources, (B) Pedro seems like the type to really shine in a start in Yankee Stadium, and (C) while I probably should worry about Game 7 when it comes, I'd still rather have Hamels there, even with all the bumps in the road he's had this year, instead of putting those eggs in the Pedro basket.

Yep. The ump called it right away.

Yeah, that's all I looked for in the replay ... it would've been tougher to notice in real time, but the second base ump was definitely making the out sign before Rollins got to second. (Of course, he may have been enforcing the neighborhood play, in which case ... eh, we better not go there again.)

I'm currently watching A.J. Pierzynski on ESPN as a guest analyst talking about Cliff Lee vs. Sabathia last night...and the shocking part is that I think he's actually doing a really good job.

I had to laugh when I saw him on First Take last week. He said that he was not in favor of expanding instant replay. NEWS FLASH: the MLB player most known for taking advantage of shady calls at every opportunity is not in favor of instant replay! In other news, Bernie Madoff has come out against tougher enforcement guidelines for the SEC!

Corss-posted from the another thread... I posted in the Lounge about whether or not people wanted to meet up in the city to watch Pedro go against the Yankees while perhaps shooting some at Amsterdam Billiards. It definitely has a decent bar and hot cocktail waitresses/bartenders, so there's also that.

I, personally, have always conteded that if you have an ACE closer there is no reason not to start him in a Game 7 and let him pitch his max innings. Especially if you don't have an ace pitcher set to start. Innings are innings, and if you start him you guarantee he is pitching important innings. Worry about the ninth when the ninth comes.

The problem with that is that Rivera can be leveraged with inherited runners.

Of course, that's typically not how closers are used, but in the playoffs it is more the norm. Girardi has shown the willingness to expand Rivera's usage.

I agree with this. The odds are tremendously high that there will be a situation in game 3 with higher leverage than that 9th inning. If you've reduced his chances of throwing in game 3 (and possibly 6 and 7), it will probably turn out to have been wasteful.

the phillies have 12 active pitchers, and that's including ja happ, chan ho park, chad durbin, brett myers, ryan madson and tony bastard, all of whom have experience not just throwing multiple innings in relief, but also in starting. bastardo, myers, park, and happ even have experience starting as recently as game 4 of the NLCS.


but really, this is moot. the phils are winning in 5. book it.

Cliff Lee's performance last night reminded me strongly of a left-handed version of Kevin Brown in his days with the Marlins and Padres--the same type of surgical precision.

(ducking) Almost as if he was auditioning for his big contract to join up with C.C. in the Bronx for 2011....

Robertson letting his two guys on was unexpected

Only if non-elite RP's allowing a couple basebrunners is every unexpected... it happens all the time.