Juan Pierre for Johan Santana!

Oh, and that's a lot of cash.

And of Colletti's new found kiddie movement?

And of Colletti's new found kiddie movement?

Body parts for Schmidt et al. Kemp's ligaments are being gauged out as we speak.

Anyhow, Andruw's kinda young for Colletti standards.

think they'll sign finley by morning?

Why exactly didn't the Royals do this instead of Guillen?

Very nice deal. Let's see if the deluded Pierre to LF speculation is just speculation.

Pierre's an awfully expensive pinch-runner.

Aw man. I am seriously crying on the inside.
I'm going to miss you Andruw, Braves games just aren't going to be the same.

I'm surprised Boras didn't take a one year deal and put Jones back on the market next year.

Why exactly didn't the Royals do this instead of Guillen?

Jones did want to stay in the NL.

Jeez...imagine what he'd have gotten if he'd had a good year.

This is, IMO, a real stinkburger of a deal.

If I were Matt Kemp, I would keep renting.

Colletti - Just when we thought he out, he pulled us back in

So the LA teams last year gave Juan Pierre and Gary Matthews Jr. a combined $20M/year to play CF for them.

Now they're giving Jones and Hunter a combined $36M/year to move those two to corner outfield spots?

Awesome.

I doubt this means Kemp goes to the bench or gets traded. It looks like Colletti is treating Pierre like a sunk cost. He ain't bad for a reserve outfielder though.

I expect a big season out of Jones this year. Think Paul Konerko 2004 or Mike Lowell 2006. Uncharacteristically bad years are often followed by big ones.

Didn't see that coming. Should work out fine for Dodgers. Hopefully they can find a taker for Pierre. Repko can backup at CF, right?

Tht's actually a pretty good deal IMO.

Is Pierre a good fielder? Could he be sent out with a backpack full of cash to someone who needs a CF glove and is willing to take a hit on offense, or is he just terrible across the board?

Wow, really? I understand he's got a bit of a track record, but 88 OPS+ last year means 2/36? What would he have gotten if he had a good year last year and was willing to sign a short term deal? 2/50? In that respect, it reminds me a lot of the Lowe deal - good player coming off a bad year that would be a smart buy, but it was as if people didn't discount that bad year at all.

Still, I can't imagine this working too poorly. Extremely durable, still above average in CF, no arb picks/young players given up.

I still think Ethier's the one traded, not Kemp.

Is Pierre a good fielder? Could he be sent out with a backpack full of cash to someone who needs a CF glove and is willing to take a hit on offense, or is he just terrible across the board?

Pierre has excellent range but a very poor arm. He's a very good defender overall. The Dodgers have to trade him now though because he is absolutely without value in a corner outfield spot.

If you add all of Pierre's stolen bases to his slugging percentage, he comes out to about an average hitter...with good speed and decent defence. Is that really as bad as everyone rags on here? Yes he's overrated.

I wonder if Ethier or Kemp would be used for a Troy Glaus trade.

Only two years ..
Is this another loss for Scott Boras, or is this by design.
I think more by design. After JD Drew walked away from LA, I couldn't see Colletti signing anything long term with Scott Boras.
This is a very good signing for Los Angeles

If you add all of Pierre's stolen bases to his slugging percentage, he comes out to about an average hitter...with good speed and decent defence. Is that really as bad as everyone rags on here? Yes he's overrated.

Has Juan figured out how to move runners over with the stolen base?

Do we get to cut out his caught stealings from his on-base percentage too?

If you add all of Pierre's stolen bases to his slugging percentage, he comes out to about an average hitter...with good speed and decent defence. Is that really as bad as everyone rags on here? Yes he's overrated.

By EQA, which includes SB, he hasn't been an average hitter since 2004.

If you add all of Pierre's stolen bases to his slugging percentage, he comes out to about an average hitter...with good speed and decent defence. Is that really as bad as everyone rags on here? Yes he's overrated.

Or you could use a comprehensive metric that incorporates that. For example, his .249 EQA, which makes him about an average hitter...for a catcher.

hey the astros love speed. trade him to houston for oswalt. he could hit 3rd after bourne and matsui.

Pierre has excellent range but a very poor arm. He's a very good defender overall.

In 2007, RZR: 0, ZR: 2. That is before taking into account his arm.

If you add all of Pierre's stolen bases to his slugging percentage, he comes out to about an average hitter...with good speed and decent defence. Is that really as bad as everyone rags on here? Yes he's overrated.

Batting Runs above average, takes into account SBs and baseerunning, last 3 years: -4, -9, -9. If you squint REALLY hard, such as giving him +10 runs for playing CF, he is average.

For comparison, Endy Chavez, by BRAA, last 3 years: -8, 5, -2.

Andruw will bounce back with a healthly elbow. This will look like a really sweet deal for the Dodgers pretty quickly.

So long Andruw, it was fun.

"In 2007, RZR: 0, ZR: 2."

Dude, I'm sorry. Throwing out two numbers really does not tell you that much at all about a guys D. These aren't hitting numbers were talking about here.

Well, numbers aside, visually Pierre looks horrendous defensively. He's not as fast as you think, he has no killer instinct to track down balls, he takes wobbly routes, he plays too deep to catch short balls and he's too afraid of the wall to catch deep balls. Oh, and despite the fact that EVERYONE ran on him an EVERY opportunity, and he played almost every inning of the season, he managed only 4 assists. I think he's better offensively than he is defensively.

Please trade Pierre.

I love all this Pierre negativity.

I am going to get him for about $5.00 at next years auction.

32

Pierre is a great fantasy player.

Real player? Not so much.

Moreover, even if Pierre could drag himself back up to shouting distance of average, I don't see many teams lining up to shell out $9.125 million a year (average) for the next four seasons for a guy who will 30.

Maybe if the Dodgers pick up half that salary he'll get sent somewhere, but I don't know if LA wants to do that necessarily.

Crap. This means the Royals are gonna go even harder after Fukudome. God, I can't believe I'm worried about the Cubs being outbid by KC...

Pierre has excellent range but a very poor arm.

Well, numbers aside, visually Pierre looks horrendous defensively.

Pierre has always struck me as having averagish range, but that was during his glory days in Florida. I specifically remember one series with the Phils two or three years ago in which he didn't get to anything. The Phils' announcers remarked on how odd it was for Pierre to miss several catchable balls, but from my experience (and the advanced defensive stats that were posted here at the time) I thought it was about the norm for him.

Is this another loss for Scott Boras, or is this by design.

I have to think this is another "loss" for Boras. Wasn't he boasting about a $100 million deal on the table just a couple of days ago. If that offer were real, I imagine he would have taken it. I mean in two years Andruw will be 32 and if he doesn't rebound in Dodger Stadium (not exactly Coors), I don't see a $70 million deal for 2010.

I also have to think that the Braves may have signed on for something like this if Boras hadn't... well, been Boras and started with that 10 year/$200 million nonsense.

Am I missing something here? A 30-something outfielder comes off a horrible year, a contract year to boot. Not just bad, but horrible...and the consensus is he was a 'good' signing at 18M a year for 2 years?

Wow. Elbow or no elbow, the only thing I'd like about this deal if I were a Dodger fan is the length.

And this is somehow a defeat for Scott Boras?

I have an irrational love of Pierre. Smallish guy, decent centerfielder who gets 200 hits and steals bases. He'the player I always wanted to be when I was 11.

It looks to me like hedge-betting in preparation for taking credit no matter what happens on Uncle Ned's part. If Jones continues to mildly suck as last year, Uncle Ned says "Well, I knew he was a risk, that's why I insisted on only a two-year deal." If Jones goes gangbusters, Uncle Ned says, "I knew he was going to be great! That's why I didn't hesitate to give him $18 million a year!"

Smart contract for Uncle Ned's career plans. For the Dodgers? Upgrading from Pierre was a need, and it's not a bad risk. If Uncle Ned really thought last year was a total aberration for Jones, though, he really should have done a long-term deal (presumably at around Carlos Lee money, though that's pure guessing on my part), since Jones will be only entering his age-33 season in two years, still with some quality years ahead of him. But obviously Uncle Ned was too risk averse for that.

Over the next two years, I have trouble seeing Jones being worth this much money. But you can see the justification: The NL sucks, but the NL West is pretty competitive around the high-80s win area, and if Jones does even moderately well the Dodgers pick up a crucial 2-3 wins a year over the next two years. A single playoff appearance pays for his contract. (Not for Slappy's, though.)

As for Slappy Pierre, he's a nice fourth outfielder to have around, can play CF or LF without embarrassing himself, can slap singles and run fast. Problem is, if he stays around, there's no question he's going to siphon off Kemp/Ethier's playing time; they simply won't keep him on the bench most of the time. We'll see how it turns out. I'm not convinced yet that this isn't a precursor to the Dodgers jumping back into the Santana Sweepstakes.

I heard recently that a spiderweb tattoo indicates that a gang member has killed someone.....somehow I can't picture Andruw doing that, he seems so laidback :)

I sense the Phillies will get in on Juan Pierre and sell him as a "speed guy" and rave about his defense, blah, blah. If the Dodgers could get the average salary down in the $6 million range via cash kicked-in, I think the Phillies would be happy to take him off the Dodgers hands.

It would be stupid, sure, but I think they'd be interested. So Pierre + $12 million for maybe Madson and a low-A arm with upside? I can't imagine who on the Phillies the Dodgers would want, but if shedding the contract is the point, they might not care.

I think he's better offensively than he is defensively.

Ouch, that's harsh.

It looks to me like hedge-betting in preparation for taking credit no matter what happens on Uncle Ned's part. If Jones continues to mildly suck as last year, Uncle Ned says "Well, I knew he was a risk, that's why I insisted on only a two-year deal." If Jones goes gangbusters, Uncle Ned says, "I knew he was going to be great! That's why I didn't hesitate to give him $18 million a year!"

You're being pretty harsh on Coletti. Can't it just be good (or bad, YMMV) risk management rather than a CYA move? The money sounds high to me but it's not a franchise killer. Plus, if Jones rebounds to his former level, adjusting for age let's say, LA has the first crack at him for 2010 and beyond.

I think this is a pre-cursor to Kemp + for a SP. Santana? Haren? Bedard?

A two year contract to Andruw Jones should pretty much put an end to Delwyn Young's Dodger career too.

I love all this Pierre negativity.

I am going to get him for about $5.00 at next years auction.

doubtful - most of my 5x5 league either lurks here or subscribes to BPro, etc... "actual" suckitude doesn't equal perceived roto suckitude... Chris Duffy went for $21 last year in our league - and everyone bidding was well aware that he sucked.

Speed always draws premium bids. Roto players are the only baseball fans in the world that spend the offseason sleuthing the whereabouts of people like Brian Hunter, Roger Cedeno, and their ilk.

In other news, Aaron Rowand and Roseasharn seen packing up their jalopy and heading towards Los Angeles. 800 pickers wanted there, I hear. Plenty of work in Californi!

Problem is, if he stays around, there's no question he's going to siphon off Kemp/Ethier's playing time; they simply won't keep him on the bench most of the time. We'll see how it turns out.

Assuming that a trade isn't coming, I don't think Pierre will get all that much playing time. Torre has no reason to be loyal to Pierre, and if Ethier and Kemp are healthy he would soon see that they are better. As others have said, Pierre isn't a bad player to have as a fourth outfielder. It also wouldn't shock me for the Dodgers to eat some of Pierre's salary to move him. Baez was one of Colletti's first big trades, and he was willing to pay his salary to move him before the year was out.

I like this pickup, since I figure it makes it less likely that Colletti will feel pressure to make some big move, i.e. give up the kids for a vet, and there is a decent chance that Jones bounces back to become an impact hitter again. Basically, they are risking money (that the Dodgers have) to jumpstart the offense.

And in two seasons, the Dodgers kids will hopefully be impact hitters anyway.

Wow, really? I understand he's got a bit of a track record, but 88 OPS+ last year means 2/36? What would he have gotten if he had a good year last year and was willing to sign a short term deal? 2/50?

He wouldn't have been willing to sign a short-term deal if he had had a good year last year. Plenty of teams would have bid against each other for the chance to bet on his next five seasons.

This is probably where I would have guessed he'd end up, if only because I used to get him confused with Rafael Furcal and this is the same thing Furcal did.

My gut feel is that Dodger Stadium will not be a good match for Andruw.

So, did he just have one of the costliest bad seasons ever? I guess it depends on his next contract, but so far his bad year may have cost the Braves a shot at the postseason and cost him about $70m. I don't recall how that compares to Nomar a few years ago or Juan Gonzalez and the deals they turned down, but Andruw picked a heck of a bad year to crash and burn.

I think he'll bounce back, but some of that will be masked by the ballpark.

Dodger Stadium is a good hitting environment now - better than Atlanta.

why would Dodger stadium hinder Andruw.

_______________________
Andruw Jones and Torii Hunter in Los Angeles. That ought to spin the turnstiles.

If you add all of Pierre's stolen bases to his slugging percentage, he comes out to about an average hitter...with good speed and decent defence. Is that really as bad as everyone rags on here? Yes he's overrated.

According to Rauseo' post #75 from THIS THREAD Pierre's steals are the equivalent to adding about 14 total bases. That bumnps his Slg % from .353 to .374 and gives him a .705 OPS. He probably gets a bit of a further bump in value from his NON STEALS baserunning. Per the Bill James handbook, his Baserunning additional bases above average, (1st to 3rd, 2nd to home, 1st to home) was 18. So if you want to quantify it in OPS terms, you could probably stretch him out to the equivalent of a .715 OPS batter. The average major league centerfielder had a .763 OPS last year.

So even if you jump through hoops to give the guy as much credit as possible for his baserunning, and put it into OPS terms, he's STILL 50 points below the average for his position. Oh, BTW, avg OPS for a left fielder is .793

Oh, how I hope they ship Kemp and other players out of town and move Pierre to left. That would be cherry. Of course if they do so, they'd probably get Bedard or Haren....so I guess thats a double edged sword. IF the Dodgers have gotten smarter, Pierre just becomes the 4th outfielder and they keep Kemp.

How did Dodger Stadium become a hitters park? (Park factor above 100 the last few years)

Did they change the dimensions or is it just a Jose Lima hangover?

why would Dodger stadium hinder Andruw.

I said it was a gut feel, I don't have any good reason for it *shrug*

How did Dodger Stadium become a hitters park? (Park factor above 100 the last few years)

Did they change the dimensions or is it just a Jose Lima hangover?


IIRC, the eliminated a lot of foul territory in the park when McCourt bought the team.

IIRC, the eliminated a lot of foul territory in the park when McCourt bought the team.

Yep, they replaced most of the extra foul territory with luxury boxes.

Exactly. The foul ground was one of the biggest reasons for it being a pitchers park since the last makeover - it led to a reduction in batting average. But McCourt added a bunch of premium seats, shrinking much of the foul ground, so it now plays as a mild hitter's park. It hadn't been a bad place for home runs since the makeover in the '70s, which moved the plate forward a bit.

How did Dodger Stadium become a hitters park? (Park factor above 100 the last few years)

Did they change the dimensions or is it just a Jose Lima hangover?


IIRC, the eliminated a lot of foul territory in the park when McCourt bought the team.

I wonder if the addition of Petco, and the Humidor in Colorado, and a pitchers park in St. Louis skews the numbers, making LA look like it's changed more than it has. Certainly the reduced foul territory has played a part, but since the park factors are relative to the league, it would stand to reason that would have impacted their rating as well.

How did Dodger Stadium become a hitters park? (Park factor above 100 the last few years)

I think they added seats which reduced their foul territory. Dodger Stadium's always been an okay park to hit home runs (averagish). The big negative had been the huge foul territory, I think.

Assuming that a trade isn't coming, I don't think Pierre will get all that much playing time.

Does nobody care about his consecutive games streak?

How did Dodger Stadium become a hitters park? (Park factor above 100 the last few years)

Dodger is a decent homerun park, that's good for Andruw, but he probably won't hit .250 there. I think they'll be happy with a .245-40-110 season.

I wonder if the addition of Petco, and the Humidor in Colorado...

The imbalanced schedule (both in conjunction with the above and on its own) has a reasonably large impact as well.

So, did he just have one of the costliest bad seasons ever? I guess it depends on his next contract, but so far his bad year may have cost the Braves a shot at the postseason and cost him about $70m.

He just signed for Soriano/Zito money and that's "one of the costliest bad seasons ever"? What did you think his annual salary would have been if he hadn't stunk in 2007? The only way this deal costs him $70 million is if he doesn't sign another one after this one ends. When this deal ends, Jones will still only be 32/33, baseball inflation will have been at work for two more years, and he'll probably be coming off a season where he hits better than .222. If 2007 was an aberration and he rebounds solidly for the next two seasons, I'm not sure that 2007 will end up costing him anything.

baseball inflation will have been at work for two more years, and he'll probably be coming off a season where he hits better than .222.

True.
And don't forget. In two years, Scott Boras will know what kind of money MLB tv is adding to each owners bottom line.

Andruw Jones just got a 40% raise.

This is a solid deal for the Dodgers. To get a player of Andruw's magnitude for two years of his prime at the going rate is great. He is likely to bounce back. If not, it won't cripple the franchise.

We've come a long way in a short time when signing a guy for $18M won't 'cripple the franchise' if he doesn't hit at above-a-typical-CF-rate.

Not saying it isn't true, but boy, is it head-shaking if we stop and think a bit.

Either the MOR franchises are awash in even more money than we know, or the have/have-not gap is likely to get even wider. IMO, that ain't good.

He just signed for Soriano/Zito money and that's "one of the costliest bad seasons ever"? What did you think his annual salary would have been if he hadn't stunk in 2007? The only way this deal costs him $70 million is if he doesn't sign another one after this one ends.\

I know this. That is why I said it depends on his next contract.

Either the MOR franchises are awash in even more money than we know, or the have/have-not gap is likely to get even wider. IMO, that ain't good.

EVERYONE is awash in money. National TV and MLBAM revenues are probably north of $60M per team. Plus revenue sharing. KC, Pitt., Fla. all have the money. They could support $80M payrolls. They just rather have the profits than compete.

I'm with Colin, though I'm not sure Dodger Stadium hurts Andruw that much. His BA was never great and his HRs should still get out of Chavez Ravine. The argument that Andruw wasn't hurt by his horrible 2007 is shot down by what he was asking for and likely getting _before_ 2007. At least five years, if not closer to 10, in the same 18-20 mil per range. Without 2007 he would have gotten this money, for seven or eight years, no doubt. Coletti is making a reasonable bet that 2007 was an aberration and is taking advantage of the down market to get a short term deal rather than the mega-deal structures that were so vogue last year.

Andruw gets a chance to prove he is still Andruw, and more power to him for it. He'll be missed.

* I don't think you can compare this contract to Hunter or Soriano. The Dodgers are committed to only *two* years, while both Hunter and Soriano are good bets to be paid beyond the end of their productive careers. The annualized figure doesn't tell the whole story.

* If his performance rebounds over the next two years (.260 BA with the usual power/defense), Andruw will come out of this sequence ahead. Somebody will give him a six-year deal at top dollar, a figure that will likely seem completely extravagant by today's standards. So he hasn't YET cost himself the big bucks. He is simply at real risk of doing so if he can't pull his batting average back up above .250.

* The Dodgers gave up no draft picks to sign Jones and are set to receive two draft picks when he leaves (if he performs). In contrast, the Angels gave up their first-round draft pick for Hunter and are unlikely to receive any compensation by the end of his contract. If a lower-first-round draft pick is valued at $12M to $15M, this is a huge swing in value when comparing the deals.

* Every franchise in baseball has $125M+ of revenue, even after stadium expenses. The recent increase has been particularly rapid, so don't expect it to level off in the immediate future. The Red Sox and Yankees may both be over $300M in local revenue (an 8:1 advantage over the small-market teams?), however they are returning a large chunk of that in revenue sharing and luxury tax. My numbers are a year or two out of date, but...

Yankees: $310M local + $60M national - $90M revenue-sharing - $20M luxury-tax = $260M
Tampa Bay: $40M local + $60M national + $35M revenue-sharing = $135M

Those are the two extremes. Has the have/not gap **ever** been as low as 2:1 before in the history of the league?!?

We've come a long way in a short time when signing a guy for $18M won't 'cripple the franchise' if he doesn't hit at above-a-typical-CF-rate.

It won't cripple the franchise because it's only two years. It's still possible for a contract to cripple a franchise. Viz. Denny Neagle, possibly Barry Zito.

Zito can't cripple what was never healthy in the first place...

Neagle didn't cripple the franchise, Hampton did.

The Dodgers gave up no draft picks to sign Jones and are set to receive two draft picks when he leaves (if he performs).

I doubt it. I strongly suspect that Boras demanded a no arbritration offer clause to the contract.

Wouldn't be the first time... Nonetheless, he wasn't in THAT strong a bargaining position this round and may have forgone the usual tack-on clauses. Presumably the contract details will eventually come out and we will see.

Santana for Kemp + B/C prospect if LA will do it. I thought, as I said, and as AROM said yesterday, that that should have been the Twins goal all along, instead of getting jerked around by the Red Sox and the Yankees over Mastersons and Kennedys. I think Smith should tell Cashman and Epstein that if they expect Santana to be traded within the AL, they have to pony up. If the Twins are going to trade him for a couple of B and C prospects, to the NL he goes. I realize that the real world is much more complex than posting on an internet board, but still.

We'll see.

Robin, I think Theo would help Smith place that call.

Offering the kind of package that the Twins want (Lester+Ellsbury) would be STUPID for the Red Sox. Roughly a $30M/year expenditure for MAYBE two or three marginal wins. You can make a slightly stronger argument for the Yankees giving up that kind of package (and some would argue that Hughes+Cabrera is comparable), but even so it is a LOT of extra money for small marginal gain. Only makes sense if you can take that price off the contract extension to Santana, and why would he accept that?

Either Smith is wildly overrating the impact that Santana would have on the Red Sox/Yankees or he is hoping that they'll engage in an irrational pissing contest. Thus far neither Cashman nor Epstein has been interested in playing that game (though I'm a little surprised that Hank hasn't stepped in to force the issue).

Kemp+Broxton for Santana makes perfect sense to both teams. Just don't pretend that it is in the interest of the Red Sox or Yankees to top that one.

Remember, you read it here first. Pierre will be traded to the White Sox for Joe Crede.

Offering the kind of package that the Twins want (Lester+Ellsbury) would be STUPID for the Red Sox. Roughly a $30M/year expenditure for MAYBE two or three marginal wins. You can make a slightly stronger argument for the Yankees giving up that kind of package (and some would argue that Hughes+Cabrera is comparable), but even so it is a LOT of extra money for small marginal gain. Only makes sense if you can take that price off the contract extension to Santana, and why would he accept that.

That's the point. The Red Sox and Yankees FOs seem to be in as in love with their young guys as their BTF fans are. Fair enough. That is is why Smith should be talking to the Dodgers. Coletti does NOT seem to be in love with his young guys--that is why he brings in Juan Pierre and Andruw Jones.

Kemp+Broxton for Santana makes perfect sense to both teams. Just don't pretend that it is in the interest of the Red Sox or Yankees to top that one.

I don't think I did that. As I have said several times, neither the Yankees nor the Red Sox seem to think they NEED Santana. They just kind of sort of would like to have him. In the Red Sox case, I agree. In the Yankees case, I think they DO need him, but Cashman believes in Hughes, Kennedy and Chamberlain. Again, fair enough.

Remember, you read it here first. Pierre will be traded to the White Sox for Joe Crede.

That is depressingly likely.

Am I missing something here? A 30-something outfielder comes off a horrible year, a contract year to boot. Not just bad, but horrible...and the consensus is he was a 'good' signing at 18M a year for 2 years?

Wow. Elbow or no elbow, the only thing I'd like about this deal if I were a Dodger fan is the length.

And this is somehow a defeat for Scott Boras?

I'm in thorough agreement with Belfry Bob on this. If anything the signing is even worse than he makes out since it both destroys much of Pierre's value and reduces the value of at least one interesting, promising young (and cheap) player. I make the actual cost, then, to the Dodgers, more on the order of 50\2 than 36\2. This going to a guy who in all likelihood is entering his decline phase--and that's the best case for the Dodgers, assuming Andruw isn't simply following the Dale Murphy career plunge.

Will this cripple the Dodger franchise? No, of course not--but you can make a lot of stupid moves without crippling something. That a move is dumb without being crippling isn't exactly the kind of move I want my GM to make.

Teams really are awash in money, aren't they? The market has leapt upward in the past year. If Andruw gets 2/36 after last year, then figure Carlos Silva signs for 5/70 somewhere. And posters were complaining about Pettitte getting 1/16!

Remember, you read it here first. Pierre will be traded to the White Sox for Joe Crede.

That is depressingly likely.

It IS depressingly likely, but I actually think I'd be more depressed if the White Sox instead go out and get Rowand for 5/70, just because they've got money that needs to be spent and they want to respond to Detroit's moves.

Maybe I'm looking at this bass-ackwards, though. The White Sox have an opening for a center fielder/leadoff man -- who would White Sox fans MOST like to see fill that opening? My vote would be David DeJesus from KC, but I have no idea whether he's available (especially within the division). Any other thoughts?

-Josh Hamilton?
-Kenny Lofton for a year?
-Mike Cameron?
-Coco Crisp? (Uribe for Crisp -- we get a CF, the Red Sox continue their streak of continuing to get worse offensively at SS)
-Jim Edmonds for a year? (Does he have anything left? I'd love to see the White Sox get Anthony Reyes too.)

If anything the signing is even worse than he makes out since it both destroys much of Pierre's value and reduces the value of at least one interesting, promising young (and cheap) player. I make the actual cost, then, to the Dodgers, more on the order of 50\2 than 36\2.

This is only true if Pierre is the starting LF. It might happen, but every day it looks more and more likely that Pierre will be traded or will be demoted to 4th/5th OF (it won't be long until Delwyn Young is ahead of Pierre on the depth chart). Colletti does some dumb things, but when he does he has a track record of correcting them-- even if means eating some or all of the contract.

Jones is a big improvement over Juan Pierre. If you don't think so then you don't understand how bad Pierre's defense is. The poster who stated that Pierre's offense is better than his defense is right.

Heh. 4th/5th OF getting 10MM a year for 4 years. Awesome.

If you don't think so then you don't understand how bad Pierre's defense is. The poster who stated that Pierre's offense is better than his defense is right.

Interesting. His defensive numbers with the Cubs were really good (though admittedly, Wrigley seems to inflate the value of CF stats, as it's a small center field), other than the fact that my Boston Terrier has a better throwing arm. I hardly saw him at all this year (mercifully); was his range really THAT bad?

That is depressingly likely.

Well, they've gotta replace Pods. 8-p I've always said that Pods and Pierre were basically clones (though Pierre's got the better glove [I thought--though his glove could suck and still be better than Podsednik's], and Pods walks occasionally).

And before anyone beats me to it: yes, I misspelled "clowns"...

Joe Sheehan thinks this is a great deal which means as a matter of principle I think it is horrible.

That said if the Dodgers weren't going to spend the money anywhere else I don't see how this deal can go wrong since it makes them better in absolute terms (which are the only terms that matter).

I don't think Jones is anywhere near the player Sheehan does (he expects a return to hall of fame levels) but that doesn't matter. Even an average player is money well spent.

Interesting. His defensive numbers with the Cubs were really good (though admittedly, Wrigley seems to inflate the value of CF stats, as it's a small center field), other than the fact that my Boston Terrier has a better throwing arm. I hardly saw him at all this year (mercifully); was his range really THAT bad?

The only thing that he has going for him on defense is that he is fast. He gets very poor jumps on balls and then take circuitous routes to get there. He also has a tendency to just flat out drop balls (he dropped at least half a dozen easy fly balls this year).

Pierre seems fast but unathletic. He is the opposite of a Torii Hunter who has underwhelming speed for a CF but makes catches mid jump, slide, dive or off balance. I think Pierre's rep as a fast guy and heady player cause those who haven't seen him play very much to overrate his defensive abilities.

So, my question is: why didnt the braves FO see andruw getting paid for his poor performance. they shouldve known that the padres, without cameron, and assumingly the dodgers because of colletti's genius, would go after andruw. wouldve garnered a nice pick along with mahays to make up for the glavine pick. with that said, do people notice how unfair the compensative pick system is?

How is this not a loss for Andruw? There is no way he gets a bigger contract next time. He has been playing CF for 155+ games for over 10 years now. He has to move from CF in a cpl of years, which is going to cut his value. There was talk of 6-7 yrs for 120 mil before the season. Supposedly during the season, he was willing to "settle" for 5-75 with the Braves.

He will get $18 mil if he goes to arb! 2 yrs 36 mil with no option even is a pretty good contract for the team, not Andruw. I don't know how to do this, but how many players have played over 12 years in CF, averaging over 150+ games per season?
And whats their dropoff been after that?

why didnt the braves FO see andruw getting paid for his poor performance.

The Braves got burnt by Maddux/Boras, and they don't think a sandwich pick is enough upside to take that risk again.
I am kind of sad that Andruw has to leave, but I guess it makes sense in baseball terms. They get to play Tex and Schafer instead of Andruw and Thorman.
Still, it sucks

Has the arb deadline passed?

We've come a long way in a short time when signing a guy for $18M won't 'cripple the franchise' if he doesn't hit at above-a-typical-CF-rate.

Not saying it isn't true, but boy, is it head-shaking if we stop and think a bit.

If you are going to think that way, you'd have been sitting in a chair since 1974 rocking back and forth like rain man and shaking your head for 3 decades.

The going rate is what it is. $1 million a year was mind boggling. Then $3M a year. and so on.

It IS depressingly likely, but I actually think I'd be more depressed if the White Sox instead go out and get Rowand for 5/70, just because they've got money that needs to be spent and they want to respond to Detroit's moves.

Bruce Levine on AM 1000 said that the furthest the Sox have gone with Rowand is 4/$55 which seems pretty reasonable.

Has the arb deadline passed?


yup. Dec 1

Has the arb deadline passed?

For FA's to be, not reserve clause players or whatever they would be called.

"If anything the signing is even worse than he makes out since it both destroys much of Pierre's value and reduces the value of at least one interesting, promising young (and cheap) player. I make the actual cost, then, to the Dodgers, more on the order of 50\2 than 36\2."


This is only true if Pierre is the starting LF. It might happen, but every day it looks more and more likely that Pierre will be traded or will be demoted to 4th/5th OF (it won't be long until Delwyn Young is ahead of Pierre on the depth chart). Colletti does some dumb things, but when he does he has a track record of correcting them-- even if means eating some or all of the contract.

Jones is a big improvement over Juan Pierre. If you don't think so then you don't understand how bad Pierre's defense is. The poster who stated that Pierre's offense is better than his defense is right.

I can't agree. Pierre's value is reduced regardless of whether he moves to LF, becomes the 4th OFer, or is traded, and in any of these cases KEmp's or Ethier's value to the Dodgers is also reduced.

Of course Jones is very likely to an improvement on Pierre, but nowhere near enough of an improvement to justify the actual cost somewhere in the neighborhood of 50\2.