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Wednesday, October 26, 2005

MLB: Latino Legends team announ.

Winners:

Ivan Rodriguez, Puerto Rico, C; (1991-current): A 12-time All-Star, Rodriguez won 10 consecutive Gold Glove Awards and was selected to play in nine straight All-Star Games starting in 1992. He was named the 1999 AL Most Valuable Player after hitting .332 with 35 home runs and 113 RBIs. He finished that season with 199 hits. He has played in at least 100 games per season 12 times since 1992.

Albert Pujols, Dominican Republic, 1B (2001-current): Only 25 years old, Pujols’ best days could be ahead of him. Arguably one of the best hitters in the Major Leagues, the right-handed slugger hits for average and power and is always among the top candidates for the NL’s Most Valuable Player Award. He hit 37 home runs and drove in 130 runs as a rookie with St. Louis in 2001.

Rod Carew, Panama, 2B (1967-1985): An 18-time All-Star, Carew won seven batting titles and hit .300 or better—including a .388 mark in 1977—in 15 consecutive seasons. He was named the AL MVP in 1977 and AL Rookie of the Year in 1967. With 3,053 hits, Carew is one of three players from Latin America with at least 3,000 hits. Roberte Clemente and Rafael Palmeiro are the others. He is one of seven players from Latin America in the National Baseball Hall of Fame.

Edgar Martinez, Puerto Rico, 3B (1987-2004): Martinez could be regarded as the greatest designated hitter in baseball, but he spent the first part of his 18-year career with the Mariners at third base. Martinez walked away from baseball in 2004 with 309 home runs, 514 doubles, a .312 career batting average and a .418 career on-base percentage. A seven-time All-Star selection, Martinez arguably had his best year in 1995, when he led the league in hitting (.356), on-base percentage (.479), runs (121), and doubles (52). He also won the Roberto Clemente Award in 2004.

Alex Rodriguez, Dominican Republic, SS (1994-current) : Regarded as one of the best all-around players in the game, Rodriguez shined as a shortstop before moving to third base for the Yankees prior to the 2004 season. Rodriguez was named the AL’s Most Valuable Player in 2003 and he became the youngest player ever to reach the 400-home run plateau in 2005. A two-time Gold Glove winner at shortstop, Rodriguez is a nine-time All-Star.

Mariano Rivera, Panama, Relief Pitcher (1995-current): Regarded as one of the most reliable closers in baseball, Rivera ranks inside the top ten in career saves. Before becoming the Yankees full-time closer in 1997, the right-hander set a club record in 1996 for the most strikeouts by a reliever with 130. Rivera, who saved 40 or more games in a season five times and 50 or more twice, led the Yankees to World Championships in 1996 and 1998-2000, while winning the 1999 World Series MVP. The seven-time All Star has finished five seasons with an ERA under 2.00 while never completing a season with an ERA above 3.00 as a reliever.

Roberto Clemente, Puerto Rico, OF (1955-1972): With his induction in 1973, Clemente was the first Hispanic-American to be selected to the Hall of Fame and the only player to be exempt from the mandatory five-year post-retirement waiting period. Clemente spent 18 seasons with the Pirates, recording 3,000 hits, 240 home runs and 1,305 RBIs. A 12-time All-Star selection and 12-time Gold Glove winner, Clemente won his only MVP award in 1966, despite collecting four batting titles in the 60’s. He also helped the Pirates claim the 1971 World Series title.

Manny Ramirez, Dominican Republic, OF (1993-current): Ramirez spent eight seasons in Cleveland before his current five-year stint with Boston. A nine-time All-Star, seven-time Silver Slugger and winner of the 2004 World Series MVP award, Ramirez earned the batting title in 2002 with a .349 average and led the league in slugging percentage in 1999, 2000 and 2004.

Vladimir Guerrero, Dominican Republic, OF (1996-current): After eight seasons with Montreal, Guerrero won his first MVP award with the Angels in 2004 by hitting .337 with 39 home runs and 129 RBIs. He has hit over .300 in every season since 1997, reaching the 200-hit mark three times and leading the league in that category (206) in 2002. A seven-time All-Star and four-time Silver Slugger, Guerrero stole 138 bases through his first nine seasons to go along with 273 home runs and 828 RBIs.

Pedro Martinez, Dominican Republic, Starting Pitcher (1992-present): A three-time Cy Young Award winner, Martinez won for the first time in 1997, while with the Expos, and in 1999 and 2000 with the Red Sox. Martinez entered the 2005 season with a .705 winning percentage—the best among pitchers with 200 or more decisions. In 1999, he became the first pitcher in history to have 300-strikeout seasons in each league.

Juan Marichal, Dominican Republic, Starting Pitcher (1960-1975): Marichal compiled 243 wins and a 2.89 ERA. He started 451 games and completed 244 of them, pitching 52 shutouts. He was inducted into Cooperstown in 1983, the first player from the Dominican Republic to enter the Hall of Fame.

Fernando Valenzuela, Mexico, Starting Pitcher (1980-1997): In 17 big-league seasons, Valenzuela compiled a 173-153 record and a 3.54 ERA for the Dodgers, Angels, Orioles, Phillies, Padres and Cardinals. He threw a no-hitter for the Dodgers in 1990 and ranks among the all-time leaders in nearly all of the franchise’s record books.

Maury Brown Posted: October 26, 2005 at 05:41 PM | 58 comment(s)
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Reader Comments and Retorts

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Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Page 1 of 1 pages
   1. Dave Spiwak  Posted: October 26, 2005 at 07:11 PM (#1706479)
Edgar Martinez...spent the first part of his 18-year career with the Mariners at third base...

Edgar only had 3 seasons with 100+ games at 3B. Weren't there any better options?
   2. Steve Treder  Posted: October 26, 2005 at 07:27 PM (#1706488)
Edgar only had 3 seasons with 100+ games at 3B. Weren't there any better options?

Tony Perez, maybe? Bobby Bonilla?

Hell, Darrell Evans is Mexican-American.
   3. 6 - 4 - 3  Posted: October 26, 2005 at 07:32 PM (#1706495)
Edgar only had 3 seasons with 100+ games at 3B. Weren't there any better options?

Well A-Rod's only been there for two.

Seriously, as far as I can tell, the only real other contenders were Vinny Castilla and Tony Perez. Castilla's a stiff (although he does have over 300 career HR thanks to Coors) and Perez spent most of his career on the other side of the diamond.
   4. Steve Treder  Posted: October 26, 2005 at 07:49 PM (#1706515)
Castilla's not a stiff, but he clearly isn't as good as his reputation.

The Latin guy who played the most 3B was, I'm pretty sure, Aurelio Rodriguez. Decent ballplayer, but hardly the type of name you expect to see on one of these lists.
   5. sunnyday2  Posted: October 26, 2005 at 08:05 PM (#1706530)
Seems like A-Rod at 3rd and take your pick of a dozen or more SSs. And what would be so damn wrong about picking a DH if only so you can honor another guy (presumably Tony--Oliva, I mean). And are there really on 3 starting pitchers worth picking?
   6. Steve Treder  Posted: October 26, 2005 at 08:17 PM (#1706541)
And are there really on 3 starting pitchers worth picking?

I'd take Tiant over Valenzuela anyway.
   7. Dave Spiwak  Posted: October 26, 2005 at 08:20 PM (#1706544)
Edgar only played 563 games at 3B.

Perez played 760 games at 3B (though he did have way more at 1B).
A-Rod's already got 316.

Does Eric Chavez not count as Latino because he was born in the US? If so, why is A-Rod on the list?

Other line-ups: Roberto Alomar at 2B, Carew at 1B, Pujols at 3B.

OR Aparicio or Tejada at SS, A-Rod at 3B.

O well-- if I cared so much I should have voted, only I couldn't get to a Chevy dealership in time.
   8. Dave Spiwak  Posted: October 26, 2005 at 08:24 PM (#1706550)
The Latin guy who played the most 3B was, I'm pretty sure, Aurelio Rodriguez.

The original A-rod won the GG once, but posted some less than stellar offensive numbers. How did he make it over 2000 games with career .237/.275/.351 ?
   9. shaftr  Posted: October 26, 2005 at 08:25 PM (#1706553)
Manny, Pujols & Vlad...why didn't they show up for this?
   10. Jimmy P  Posted: October 26, 2005 at 08:29 PM (#1706564)
Didn't MLB already dictate to A-Rod what nationality he is over the summer? Didn't MLB tell him that he's American and not Dominican?
   11. I Love LA (OFF)  Posted: October 26, 2005 at 08:35 PM (#1706572)
Does Eric Chavez not count as Latino because he was born in the US?

Hmmm...Eric Chavez doesn't even speak Spanish.

If so, why is A-Rod on the list?

A-Rod is on the list because he spent his childhood in the Dominican, has said in the past he considers himself Dominican, and because technically he's Dominican (you are an official citizen of the D.R. if your parents are Dominican).
   12. Flynn  Posted: October 26, 2005 at 08:35 PM (#1706573)
How did he make it over 2000 games with career .237/.275/.351 ?

Brooks Robinson without the reputation.
   13. Steve Treder  Posted: October 26, 2005 at 08:37 PM (#1706579)
How did he make it over 2000 games with career .237/.275/.351 ?

He could really, really pick it at the hot corner. Playing in any other league than the one that had Brooks Robinson and then Graig Nettles in it, he'd have racked up numerous Gold Gloves.
   14. Crispix Attacks is the best  Posted: October 26, 2005 at 08:43 PM (#1706585)
I really think they should have bit the bullet and went with either Aurelio or Vinny, since up until the 2005 season they were literally the only Latinos who had even 7 years' worth of games at 3B.

Most games played at 3B by a Latino: (out of all players with over 1000 games total)

1983 Aurelio Rodriguez
1586 Vinny Castilla
1112 Adrian Beltre
988 Eric Chavez, if you count him.
957 Bobby Bonilla
874 Edgardo Alfonzo
863 Luis Salazar
760 Tony Perez
755 Tony Batista
...
563 Edgar Martinez
414 Jose Hernandez
373 Pedro Guerrero
316 Alex Rodriguez
302 Tony Fernandez
38 Jackie Hernandez
2 Carmelo Martinez
0 Eude Brito
   15. shoewizard  Posted: October 26, 2005 at 08:58 PM (#1706606)
Perez should be on the team as the 3rd baseman, and they just should have put Edgar on the team as DH, although Orlando Cepada could have taken that spot too.

And for the love of God...WHERE IS LUIS TIANT???
   16. ChadBradfordWannabe  Posted: October 26, 2005 at 09:06 PM (#1706616)
Didn't MLB already dictate to A-Rod what nationality he is over the summer? Didn't MLB tell him that he's American and not Dominican?

I don't think there's been a racial draft this year yet, so we can go ahead and claim him.
   17. ChadBradfordWannabe  Posted: October 26, 2005 at 09:07 PM (#1706621)
posted this on the game chatter, but did anyone else hear that Olmos pronounced A-Rod like ah-ROD and not AYE-rod?
   18. vortex of dissipation  Posted: October 26, 2005 at 09:22 PM (#1706642)
Since there was no spot for a DH, I have no problem with Edgar making it - he's clearly better than Castillo or Aurelio Rodriguez, and even though Tony Perez played more games at third, he's clearly thought of as a first baseman. I do agree that the best solution would have been to have a DH, which Edgar would have won (unless David Ortiz fans stuffed the ballot box), and have Perez at third. Or even Pujols at third and Perez at first, same thing...
   19. OCF  Posted: October 26, 2005 at 09:50 PM (#1706685)
And are there really on 3 starting pitchers worth picking?

Jose Mendez
Martin Dihigo (part pitcher, part outfielder)

And did you notice that there's no centerfielder? To play with this team, you'd have to put Clemente in CF. Offered as a fix for that problem: Cristobal Torriente.
   20. T.J.  Posted: October 26, 2005 at 10:17 PM (#1706728)
Albert Pujols, Dominican Republic, 1B (2001-current):... Arguably one of the best hitters in the Major Leagues

Arguably? Who's going to argue? At worst he's arguably THE best.
   21. MM1f  Posted: October 26, 2005 at 10:29 PM (#1706743)
anyone else notice how everything below this on the Primer main page is now italicized
   22. cardsfanboy  Posted: October 26, 2005 at 11:48 PM (#1706972)
did I miss the link where they announced the hank aaron award (ortiz and andruw Jones)
   23. Dave Spiwak  Posted: October 27, 2005 at 12:40 AM (#1707174)
Hmmm...Eric Chavez doesn't even speak Spanish.

Hmmm...I concede you are correct I think you are not Latino unless you can speak Spanish.
   24. Repoz  Posted: October 27, 2005 at 12:45 AM (#1707184)
Or as Ozzie Guillen said...

Alex Rodriguez couldn't even hold Luis Aparicio's (underwear)

He's the best player right now, the best hitter, But he's not better than Aparicio.


Stink...
   25. Dewitty_Pun  Posted: October 27, 2005 at 12:56 AM (#1707206)
So, who plays center field on this theoretical team? I would go with Clemente. He had the best range of the three.
   26. OCF  Posted: October 27, 2005 at 01:19 AM (#1707255)
If you're going to solve your position imbalance problems by moving players around, such as Clemente to CF (although I'll still hold out for Torriente as an actual CF), then you can solve the 3B problem by picking two shortstops: Rodriguez, and pick one from Aparicio, Concepcion, or Vizquel.

And what about 2B? Carew only played that for part of his career, and his best offensive years were at 1B. How about R. Alomar at 2B?
   27. DCW3   Posted: October 27, 2005 at 02:53 AM (#1707388)
I think you are not Latino unless you can speak Spanish.

Are we sure that Manny Ramirez can speak Spanish? Pedro Guerrero?
   28. Catfish326  Posted: October 27, 2005 at 08:02 AM (#1707581)
It was cool to see many of the older players, like Carew, Marichal, and even Clemente's sons, but really, what was the purpose of picking an all-latin team? Will other ethnicities be covered soon?
   29. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory)  Posted: October 27, 2005 at 08:34 AM (#1707601)
I think they should have limited themselves to retired players. Then guys like Aparicio, Oliva, and Cepeda could have gotten their due. The others are living in glory right now, they didn't need this.

And for the love of God...WHERE IS LUIS TIANT???

Well, you know, he's not black. Oh, wait, wrong controversy.
   30. sunnyday2  Posted: October 27, 2005 at 08:37 AM (#1707604)
The purpose of the all-Latino team as I understand it was to placate the Clemente family that made a big stink about Roberto not being on the all-20th century team a few years ago.

Yes, O, absolutely, it woulda been great to see Torriente, Dihigo, Mendez, Oms, guys like that on the team. But let's face it. History is dead.
   31. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory)  Posted: October 27, 2005 at 08:39 AM (#1707606)
And what about 2B? Carew only played that for part of his career, and his best offensive years were at 1B.

I was going to scoff at this, but when I checked the record, I saw I was not so right as I though. But I think it'd be a pretty near thing as to whether he had a higher lifetime OPS+ at 1B vs. 2B. And he had as many 130+ years at 2B as he did at 1B. O' course, he did have the monster '77 at 1B...
   32. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory)  Posted: October 27, 2005 at 08:40 AM (#1707607)
Damn T key.
   33. Belfry Bob  Posted: October 27, 2005 at 08:59 AM (#1707623)
I'm waiting for the annoucement of the All-Aruban team (finally an All-Star team for Ponson!), hopefully followed by the All-Fat and All-Flatulance teams. (hmm...he might make both of those, as well.)
   34. Crispix Attacks is the best  Posted: October 27, 2005 at 09:41 AM (#1707675)
It was cool to see many of the older players, like Carew, Marichal, and even Clemente's sons, but really, what was the purpose of picking an all-latin team? Will other ethnicities be covered soon?

I think the all-Italian team will be a big hit with sportswriters.
   35. Catfish326  Posted: October 27, 2005 at 12:01 PM (#1707940)
Baseball mistreated blacks too, for decades. Are we to have an all-black team?
   36. One day Mug finds ten years have got behind him  Posted: October 27, 2005 at 12:14 PM (#1707966)
I think it's much better to pick a truly great player like Martinez who had less time at the position, but still played it capably for a good bit, than to choose a lesser player just because they had more time there.
   37. OCF  Posted: October 27, 2005 at 12:26 PM (#1707983)
Will other ethnicities be covered soon?

The All-German-American team has the infielders.
   38. shoewizard  Posted: October 27, 2005 at 01:18 PM (#1708062)
Baseball mistreated blacks too, for decades. Are we to have an all-black team?

c-Campy
1b-Mccovey
2b-Robinson
ss-Ozzie
3b
lf-Bonds
Cf-Mays
Rf-Aaron
dh-Thomas

SP-Gibson
SP-Jenkins
SP-Blue

Cl- Lee Smith

Help me out here guys at thirdbase.
   39. mommy  Posted: October 27, 2005 at 01:30 PM (#1708084)
Charlie Hayes
   40. Mefisto  Posted: October 27, 2005 at 01:33 PM (#1708092)
Help me out here guys at thirdbase.


Uh, Jim Ray Hart? Terry Pendleton? How about shifting Jackie to third and putting Morgan at second. Also, shouldn't F. Robinson be on the team somewhere?
   41. OCF  Posted: October 27, 2005 at 01:45 PM (#1708130)
Or Ernie Banks at SS, or pick both Banks and Smith and move Banks to 3B.

And there are just too many outfielders to accomodate.

Or maybe:

C- Josh Gibson
1B - McCovey/Thomas (platoon)
2B - Morgan
3B - Jud Wilson or John Beckwith
SS - Pop Lloyd
UT - J. Robinson

Outfield #1:
LF - Bonds
CF - Mays
RF - Aaron

Outfield #2:
LF - Henderson
CF - Oscar Charleston
RF - F. Robinson

SP - Smokey Joe Williams
SP - Satchel Paige
SP - Joe Rogan
SP - Bob Gibson
SP - Jenkins, or Dick Redding, or Bill Foster, or Blue, or Newcombe

RP - L. Smith, and you can also use Paige
   42. shoewizard  Posted: October 27, 2005 at 01:51 PM (#1708149)
Well, Robinson had 748 games at 2b, compared to 256 at 3rd..but I like the idea of moving him to 3rd to make room for Morgan. Better than putting Pendleton or Hart on the team.

Yeah....I had a hard time leaving Frank Robinson off the team. But who would you replace?

If you want to have an honorable mention, then he is there. Either that, or drop Thomas and make Robby the DH. But thats a little sloppy.

The team needs a 4th starter too.
   43. Biscuit_pants  Posted: October 27, 2005 at 02:08 PM (#1708195)
is Aramis Ramirez a consideration at 3b, he does not have the 1000 games specified above but he does have 870 at 3b.
   44. One day Mug finds ten years have got behind him  Posted: October 27, 2005 at 02:45 PM (#1708252)
An all-Robinson infield would be pretty good, except for Craig Robinson at SS.

Is there a better all-name infield?
   45. One day Mug finds ten years have got behind him  Posted: October 27, 2005 at 02:45 PM (#1708256)
Well, I thought Frank had more than 300 games at 1B, but still...
   46. Dayton Moore is a Big Fat Idiot (AG#1F)  Posted: October 27, 2005 at 02:55 PM (#1708275)
All Asian-Team

C Don Wakamatsu
1B Hee Sop Choi
2B Lenn Sakata
3B Norihiro Nakamura
SS Kazuo Matsui
OF Ichiro Suzuki
OF Hideki Matsui
OF Mike Lum

SP Chan Ho Park
SP Hideo Nomo
SP Atlee Hammaker
SP Ron Darling
RP Kaz Sasaki
   47. OCF  Posted: October 27, 2005 at 02:56 PM (#1708277)
An all-Robinson infield would be pretty good, except for Craig Robinson at SS.

Is there a better all-name infield?


Maybe not, although if you accept "Schmidt"="Smith" by translation, then all-Smith would be pretty good. For overall team, all-same-name comes down to Williams (with the best outfield) versus Johnson (with the best pitching staff). Martinez is gaining, but they don't have every position covered yet.
   48. OCF  Posted: October 27, 2005 at 02:58 PM (#1708280)
Re #46 - couldn't you make that a lot better by using players who never played in North America?
   49. The Balls of Summer  Posted: October 27, 2005 at 03:09 PM (#1708308)
All-Asian Team

C - ?
1B - Hee Seop Choi
2B - Iguchi
3B - ?
SS - Kaz Matsui
LF - Hideki Matsui
CF - Shinjo
RF - Ichiro

SP - Nomo
SP - Chan Ho Park
SP - Ishii

RP - Sasaki
   50. The Balls of Summer  Posted: October 27, 2005 at 03:10 PM (#1708315)
Damn, too slow!
   51. salazar8017  Posted: October 27, 2005 at 03:11 PM (#1708318)
First, Latinos do speak Spanish, and Latinos do not speak Spanish. Makes no difference. Move on.

Second, the list that includes mostly recent players is unfortunate. The fans cast their ballots, and the results are clear. Latino baseball historians, writers and academics have much work to do to educate the masses on the true legacy of Latins in baseball.
   52. Catfish326  Posted: October 27, 2005 at 03:39 PM (#1708377)
I love that outfield of Aaron, Mays, and Bonds. That's Bobby Bonds, correct? Barry doesn't deserve jack.
   53. Crispix Attacks is the best  Posted: October 27, 2005 at 03:51 PM (#1708398)
RP - L. Smith, and you can also use Paige

I believe you're forgetting about Wayne Gomes.
   54. OCF  Posted: October 27, 2005 at 04:01 PM (#1708417)
I think the all-Italian team will be a big hit with sportswriters.

When did we invent the game where we need half of the players to be catchers?
   55. GGC  Posted: October 27, 2005 at 04:04 PM (#1708419)
An all-Irish team would've been the bees knews circa 1890.
   56. Catfish326  Posted: October 27, 2005 at 04:08 PM (#1708428)
RP - L. Smith, and you can also use Paige

RP - Grant Jackson and Jesse Jefferson
   57. OCF  Posted: October 27, 2005 at 04:15 PM (#1708443)
GGC: on the much, much narrower criterion of being born in Ireland, we get:

C - Jimmy Archer
1B - Dirty Jack Doyle
OF - Patsy Donovan
P - Tommy Bond
P - Tony Mullane

along with a good number of bench players at a variety of positions.

Of course, I assume you intended to include the likes of John McGraw, Joe Kelley, King Kelly, et al.
   58. shoewizard  Posted: October 27, 2005 at 04:22 PM (#1708464)
I love that outfield of Aaron, Mays, and Bonds. That's Bobby Bonds, correct? Barry doesn't deserve jack.

I'd put him there based on what he did even before 2000. And I am no Bonds apologist. I can't stand the guy.

From his leaderboards page, things he accomplished up through 1999, before he is suspected of using PED's:

3 MVP's and 7 times in the top 5
8 all star teams
8 gold gloves
7 silver slugger
5 times leading league in OPS, and from 1990-1999 never finishing below 3rd.
9 times in top 5 in RC in the 90's, and leading twice.
8 times top 10 in SB
13 times top 10 in power speed number, including first 6 times.

It's unfortunate he chose the route he did. The fact that so many other players were doing it does not excuse him. But it does not make his accomplishments null and void.
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