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I tell ya, the nerve of this Hawkins guy...
The Cardinals have given out Ray Lankfords number since he left the team, and Ray Lankford was more a part of Cardinal history than Paul O'neil. I can understand if it was Jeter, Mattingly, Bernie or maybe Tino Martinez(ok that is a stretch) but Paul O'neil? a 9 year Yankee that was basically slightly above average player for his position? with no standout year and probably zero stats in the top ten for the franchise? I just don't get it.
Paulie O was a pretty good to very good player who played hard and threw helmets. Just like me, to get into the Hall of Fame he'll have to purchase a ticket. It's one thing to appreciate what he brought to the table; quite another to get on another player wearing his number many years after Paulie left.
Although I am a little pissed off they gave Joe Inglett's old number to Jamey Carroll. How disrespectful.
In St Louis there is only one non-retired number that won't be given out, and that is Willie McGee, yes a fan favorite inferior to both centerfielders who followed him (Lankford, Edmonds) but a fan favorite and respected player and just an all around good guy (which is why he is so loved) in New York it seems any player that plays on the team more than 4 seasons is considered as sacred. Paul O'neil was an ass, he doesn't get bonus points for being a great guy, he wasn't a great player, he was a whiner, he had a lot of negative traits, was an inferior person, not to mention player, to Bernie (who I would agree with if the fans were whining about his uniform number) and was just not a good choice as a person to idolize.
Probably they're booing him because he's LaTroy Hawkins.
Since I don't think you're a big fan of the team, your thoughts on O'Neill is understandable. Personally, I don't think O'Neill, Mattingly or even Bernie deserves to have their numbers retired. But I can understand why the fans hold a special place for O'Neill. One can argue that the renaissance of the Yankees began when Gene Michaels traded for O'Neill and signed Jimmy Key. For people who had to put up with the Bucky Dent/Stump Merrill era of the Yankees, O'Neill was and is still seen as the first cog of the dynasty Yankees in the late nineties. His dugout histrionics not withstanding.
Because he was a whiny little crybaby who sulked and pouted and threw things whenever he didn't get a call? Fans don't usually gravitate toward ########, so it's weird that they'd have his back now.
Vlad, if he was an ########, he was one of them.
And you forgot that he didn't hit the 2 homeruns that Kramer promised Bobby.
Yep, Gil McDougald should have his Yankee uniform number retired...who is wearing 12 for the yankees right now? Alberto Gonzalez should be booed everytime he goes on the field.
He really did complain about every single called strike for about 5 straight years. That was tough to watch. In the interests of fair time, however, I'll admit that Youkilis and (especially) Ortiz do the same thing now, which really annoys me as a Red Sox fan.
That being said, fan favorite-dom is a tricky species. I'm convinced Sox fans only like Youkilis because they get to say "YOOOOOOUUK" every time he comes to the plate.
Re #1, what amazed me about the Yankees is that, considering the number of Hall of Fame types they have had who spent all or a majority of their career in the Bronx, how many of those do not have their numbers retired. Catfish Hunter was the first one that stuck out at me, considering Steinbrenner in some ways credited him with turning the franchise's pitching around.
Among the Yankees 1979 rotation, he'd be the 4th most deserving of having his number retired, 6th most including every pitcher. OK, maybe he's a little more deserving than Ed Figueroa, but that's not saying much.
His dealer?
I guess it'd be too much to expect New Yorkers to have standards.
His dealer ain't sayin' nuthin'. Snitches get stitches, yo.
Hey, Figueroa was the first Puerto-Rican-born player to win 20 games in a season. If that doesn't say "honor my number" I don't know what does.
I love that, by and large, the same non-Yankee fans who think Yankees fans are obnoxious also feel obliged to inform the Yankees fans about whom they should and should not like, honor and respect. I think we should draw a career OPS+ line for when it's okay to boo another player wearing that player's uniform. And scale it for the number of years the fans are allowed to boo without criticism.
Or maybe stop worrying about what the Yankees fans are doing.
I really don't understand why this is a big deal. If the Yankees were going to retire the number, they wouldn't have given it out.
Shef did call to check with Trammell IIRC.
Much more important, Figueroa was the first player in MLB history with all five vowels in his last name. Retire that man's number, or at least his name.
A feat of which even Grudzielanek and Mientkiewicz are envious.
Then I think the Yankees should retire whatever number Mark Salas wore during his brief tour of duty in the Bronx. Wasn't his name the only palindrome in the Majors when he played? Or at least that's what I think Tim MacCarver said on one his broadcasts...
Someone prove me wrong. Maybe my mind is trained against it but I can't come up with a legendary player who had a difficult name.
Coveleski and Mazeroski are the exceptions to this 'rule,' I suppose.
Researching this post re-revealed Nig Cuppy to my recollection. Boy, things have changed some, haven't they? Beyond Nig's shockingly distasteful moniker, he and Coveleski provide an interesting demonstration in difference a few decades makes re: the value of ERA.
Cuppy: 127 ERA+, 3.48 ERA on career
Coveleski: 127 ERA +, 2.89 ERA on career
I don't have my book of ballpark data on hand, so that is also a possible explanation.
Well, it wasn't during that time frame when he and Toby Harrah's careers overlapped (84-86). After that, maybe.
And to date, the only one.
My favorite anecdote of that callous era is in the naming of Bubbles Hargrave, supposedly concieved because of an impediment in the the player's speach which cause him to stutter over the letter B. Gotta love it.
Why his brother is nicknamed Pinky, I couldn't say.
Imagine how Kent Hrbek feels.
And not to open too big a worm can, but would Yankee fans be booing if another scrappy white guy were wearing O'Neill's number? Or would the booing stop if someone talented of any color wore it? Joba?
Carl Yastrzemski thinks you're wrong. And I always liked saying Bill Monbouquette, and he wasn't too bad.
On edit: the excerpt points out that Ensberg had the number in spring training and abandoned it because of the abuse. I don't think it's a race thing. I think the fans wouldn't boo if it were someone like Joba, but it might bother them a bit.
Give it to Farnsworth and you'll find out in a hurry. Scrappy, s'crappy, let's not split hairs.
Nope. Dave Otto (1987-1994).
Indeed... Salas was the Yankees' third string catcher on the '87 Yankees. Behind Rick Cerrone and Joel Skinner. My god, those were dark days.
Ree.Dic.You.Lous.
First name I can come up with is Joe Shlabotnik.
That's Mr. Bob Dobalina to you.
Well, Scott Niedermayer would say no. Rob Niedermayer would say yes.
Meh. Aurelio Monteagudo and Aurelio Rodriguez beat him to the bigs by 11 and 7 years, respectively, and didn't have to rely on the first name/last name dodge.
It just isn't information that sticks with me. It's an arbitrary number. I think Jimmy Rollins has a very low number. And Chase Utley too. One of them might be 2, or 3. Or 7.
Even when I used to watch lots of games on TV, I never looked at the player's number to see who he was. This whole issue just seems odd.
He played at the same time as Dave Otto.
VLMJ, I had to try to one up you, so I went in search of 5 vowels + a vowelly Y. Found some additional 5 vowel names, taking a serendipitous route trying some names with 3 or more vowels in them. Here are some findings:
Thomas Burgmeier '68
Simeon (Sam) LaRoque 1888
Norbert (Norm) Zauchin '51
Theophilus (Offa) Neal 1905
Thaddeus (Ted) Lepcio '52
Thaddeus Tillotson '67
Luis Aponte 1980
There are several Louis guys including Boudreau and Whittaker. Samuel, Maurice also pick up a few.
A couple of BTF faves:
Dustin Pedroia 2006
Louis (Chief) Sockalexis
and almost winners, with all 5 vowels and a Y, although the Y is a consonant:
Michael Young 2000
Michael (Mike) Young '82
and, depending on grammar ruling -- I think this "Y" is a vowel:
Louis Mahaffey 1898
I also found:
Wayne Housie 1992
EDIT: Offa Neal was 1905, not '05.
Well, it's not really about the caliber of the player (O'Neill was good, but not historically good by any stretch), but about the fact that this is a guy that spent his whole career annoying everyone in baseball with his on-field demeanor.
In an attempt to revive the spirit of the early comments in this thread... Otto simply doesn't count since the baseball universe clearly only revolves around the Yankees players and their fans!
He was trolling with a donut hanging from a helicopter?
Best Regards
John
Well, that I understand. I'm okay with that...I'd at least consider booing Jason Michaels for being Jason Michaels. But not because of the number on his uniform. "
Wasn't it just two years ago that some stat-types were calling Langerhans and Michaels two of the top OFs available to acquire?
har har
Dwight Evans was a fan favorite in Boston, and Manny Ramirez is wearing "his" number. I don't think too many Red Sox fans booed him in his first game in Boston with that number.
From what I recall, the Red Sox clubhouse manager exerts a lot of say in who gets what number - or, to be more precise, what numbers are off limits. Other than retired numbers, here's the last time certain numbers have been issued by the team:
45: Pedro Martinez (2004)
5: Nomar Garciaparra (2004)
21: Roger Clemens (1996)
14: Jim Rice (1989)
Number 24 sat unused for 5 years after Evans last played for the team.
Johnny Pesky's #6 was issued several times to other players - I think he'll give up the number to anyone who wants it - but it's been unused since 2000.
http://webpages.charter.net/joekuras/soxunis.htm
Paul O'Neill.
You mean MGL rating Michaels as one of the top 20 players in the majors? No, that couldn't have happened, it's so obviously ridiculous.
The subject of the story proves this comment completely false. In my book, if you're having problems with the collective adoration of a fan base to which you do not belong, the problem is 100% yours.
58: Know who else has all 5 vowels in his name?
Paul O'Neill.
That is a great call. Very impressive.
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