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I don't get it.
And by all accounts he fights dirty.
Did he knee his trainer in the groin?
Perhaps he's being brought aboard to knock off Willie.
Post headline writers are licking their chops.
Now neither player is or was a grade A talent but both had their moments on the diamond. But because they were a bit too much for Ned management had to find them a new home.
Just wanted to point that out................
However, those quotes do sound like how one would respond to accusations of being a d-bag if one were, in fact, a d-bag.
"Wargames"
Coincidentally, it's also the second former Brewer whose character you're going to lengths to assassinate today.
Yeah, we should trade for Joe Mauer and try to get Brian McCann too to back him up.
Other than that small A-Rod deal of $250 million, (pinky to mouth)
Because nobody got nothing from nobody in 2007...............
With catchers in particular, unlike other players, I think if you're comparing players who suck an equal amount, you should err on the side of the veteran rather than the young guy. Having an unproven player as the full-time catcher can lead to more nervousness among pitchers, unless he's a super-confident leader type like Russ Martin.
I'd give up the "top prospect" for R. Hernandez if it weren't Milledge, Gomez, F-Mart or Pelfrey, which I don't think it would be.
What doesn't suck about Mathis?
I'll mark you down as not having a better idea than 1 year of an Estrada/Castro platoon.
Yet, that's the chatter.
Wow, this is one of the funniest serious quotes I have seen in a long time.
"I don't want to get into that. It doesn't do any good to talk about negative. But he sucks. He really sucks. Big ball of suck he is. We want someone new, who won't suck. But let's stay off the negatives here."
Is Melvin six? Why is he assassinating Estrada's character? And why does he get the last word?
That said, the Mets have a complete roster as of right now. The rest of the offseason will be attempting to upgrade.
I could name some names, but that would detract from your main point: Estrada is a big time jerk. Bad news...
I do expect him to come back a little bit this season, as he played hurt for much of last year. What did he allow, like, the last 40 or so runners to make it successfully?
My prediction is that Estrada is released before the end of the season. Estrada can't hit well enough to be a starter and backup catchers who can't throw and nobody likes get released.
ZiPS
Estrada .269/.321/.368
Lo Duca .274/.320/.369
Castro .250/.318/.434
Barrett (SD) .254/.313/.385
Laird (Tex) .249/.305/.391
Seems like Castro is the best of these guys offensively and, you could argue, defensively. I think that Lo Duca is a better overall player than Estrada especially considering working with pitchers. So, the best (however unlikely) outcome in my mind is giving Lo Duca 2 years, non-tendering Estrada and having Lo Duca split (or even take the lesser share) time with Castro.
I'm ambivalent. I don't see Lo Duca as being >>> an Estrada/Castro split and I think I'd rather have the draft pick for Lo Duca and just go with those guys.
This sounds like something Steve Phillips would come up with.
I like the sound of "adds depth." That almost makes it sound like Castro is the #1.
I'd rather have the draft pick for Lo Duca
Can we offer this man arbitration? He's a type B so it wouldn't discourage any team from signing him. He made $6.25M last year. What would he make through arbitration?
If the Mets offered him arbitration (by Dec. 1) Lo Duca has to accept (or not) by Dec. 7th and the Mets can still non-tender Estrada up until Dec. 12th. Sooo..... maybe that's the Mets "master plan." Offer Lo Duca arbitration, either you get him on a 1 year deal or, more likely since he'll want something longer, you at least get a supplemental pick with an estimated net $3M for his loss. Estrada gives them flexibility to be okay in either scenario.
This sounds like something Steve Phillips would come up with.
Can Church pitch middle relief? Can he take the ball every day? By any chance, and this might be asking too much, does he have closing experience?
No? I think Phillips would prefer Jon Rauch.
Lo Duca on a 2 year contract might be all right, but I don't like him, for all sorts of reasons, some his fault and some not his fault.
Strangely enough between Lo Duca, Castro and Estrada it appears that Lo Duca is the *most* likeable. Castro appears to be the worst person but, on the other hand, probably the best teammate.
I refuse to believe that Kendall threw out 7 baserunners as a Cub.
Actually, I think Dimitri Young would have to be involved.
You are absolutely right. He only threw out 5.
Gee, given Estrada's quotes to the Milwaukee paper, I wonder why they didn't want Mr. Warm and Fuzzy to speak to the NY media? :P
1. Red Sox
2. Yankees
3. Mets
4. Cubs
5. ???
Good show! Even if someone did give you credit.
He has, however, one of the biggest red-asses to walk the planet. And there were problems in Pittsburgh with him being, if not a dick, really immature...
Matsui's wasn't too pretty, either.
I'd really like to know the other 5 players.
And if Estrada is such a cancer, well, he's an upgrade from Blow Duca.
This is an amazing day.
Some of the listed CS totals for catchers include pitcher pickoffs.
For example, Estrada threw out 6 of 79, if you don't include pickoffs.
(Damian Miller threw out 11 of 35, if you don't include pickoffs)
Whatever god-awful qualities Johnny Estrada may bring with him (and I don't doubt a word of what you described), the Mets' season is not going to turn on what he does. Of that I am sure. The Mets win this deal because Guillermo Mota cannot ruin another inning, another game, and another season of New York Mets' baseball. One is surely enough.
But what just plain stuns me is how Omar could get anything for Mota. I would have been happy with Chuck Estrada or Erik Estrada just to see that useless piece of #### gone.
No one will blame you, Vaux. We are a lovable bunch.
It's unlikely, given all the history. But the one thing working in the Mets' favor is that it is Estrada's walk year. He has an incentive to spend this year behaving in order to clean up his image -- to the extent he can -- for purposes of trying to get a decent contract, which given his age is probably the only one he has a chance to get. Same goes for having the maximum incentive to have a productive year. If ever you wouldn't see the lazy, bad-attitude Johnny Estrada, you would think 2008 would be the year. Don't get me wrong. I think this particular snake is unlikely to shed his skin. But if he's going to, the Mets should get the benefit of the one year in which he will do it.
That's ONE year of data, DA -- a year in which Estrada was playing hurt (according to the article, post-season surgeries to both deal with a knee problem and remove bone spurs from his elbow). In 2006, Estrada had a .328 OBP.
And in 2005, he was at .303. Maybe he'll Saberhagen his way back to glory. Then again, he's in his 30s.
Let's see . . . A catcher who can't throw, whose offense is declining, and who creates controversy in the clubhouse with a bad attitude? Somehow that sounds familiar . . . I can't quite place it, though . . . hold on, it's on the tip of my tongue . . . .
Oh, yes! I know! Sounds pretty much like Estrada is a LoDuca clone if you ask me, except that he's younger, and doesn't have the ludicrous rep as a clubhouse "leader" that comes when the media finds a loudmouth, redass white guy with "heart" and "guts". The only difference? Resigning LoDuca would have been a multi-year commitment for a lot more money and it wouldn't have been gotten rid of Mota.
It's also Mike Barrett. Not the most likable bunch of aging catchers, are they? Jason Kendall might end up getting an extra million for not being those jag-offs. That Molina Family Catcher Mill will be doing boffo business for years to come.
I expect Castro to start about 80 games, Estrada 70
Wait, you expect them to pay a guy $5-6 million to play 70 games?
This is like changing horses on the crap-go-round.
My take exactly. Brewers fans are blasting their old junk. Mets fans blasting their old junk. Everyone's happy because they got rid of their old flavor of swill, even though some realize it's just a new swill line they got.
August 11: Troy Tulowitzki. However, it's actually a pick-off play that doesn't involve Kendall at all. The play is scored: (P-1B-SS). Since Troy broke for second, Kendall gets an undeserved credit.
August 14: Throws out Ken Griffey Jr. This one is a real CS.
August 24: Chris Young. However, once again it's a PO that doesn't involve Kendall. (P-1B-SS). Clearly, Sean Forman's info credits catchers with all PO at 2nd base, deserving or not.
September 4: Matt Kemp. (P-1B-SS)
September 9: Njger Morgan. Actually thrown out.
So Kendall nabbed 2 of the 54 runners who ran on him. HOLY FARKING SHIITE!!!
On the year 73/84 stole on him officially - 86.9%.
1) April 23 - catches Derrek Lee (?) trying to steal third base (?!?!?). Um, botched hit-and-run? Rameriz was batting, and he is good at making contact.
2) April 28 - catches Carlos Lee.
3) May 4 - nabs Adam LaRouche.
4) May 19 - Torii Hunter - BUT, it's the Kendall classic - a pick off play where he broke for second.
5) May 23 - Russell Martin.
6) May 23 (yes, that's right, he got two in one day) - Jeff Kent (?!??!?!?) at third base. Again, this must've been a blown hit-and-run. Or something.
7) May 26 - Rob Bowen at - can you guess - third base. Bowen is a back up catcher with one steal in four seasons. Again, this could only have been a blown hit-and-run.
8) June 15 - Luis Castillo.
9) June 23 - David DeJesus.
10) July 4 - Ryan Doumit - in a pick off where he broke for second.
11) July 19 - Chris Young.
Eleven CS - 9 actual CSs, so much better than Barrett. Then again, 3 were at third base on slow baserunners in foiled hit-and-runs.
After June 23, he had one real pick off. He played 61 games in that stretch. 50 complete games.
In checking, baserunners were 41/42 after June 23, not including pick off plays he wasn't involved in. That's worse than Jason Kendall.
I'd pay money to see the jump Chris Young got on 7/19. Musta really sucked.
OPS
04 - 828
05 - 670
06 - 772
07 - 699
average: 742; stdev: 71
PrOPS
04 - 776
05 - 747
06 - 763
07 - 732
average: 755; stdev: 19
According to PrOPS this guy has actually been remarkably consistent and doesn't really need to "bounce back" at all.
I think the torn meniscus happened with a week left in the season and he hasn't played a game since, right? So, that probably wasn't affecting his throwing.
I know. That's why I checked Kendall first. Still, ya gotta admit, 1/42 is BAD.
Barrett tossed out 14 of 86 baserunners.
LoDuca got 22 of 94.
In the AL, Kendall nailed 15 of 74.
And a special hand for Josh Bard. Not mentioned here yet, but he tossed out 10 of the 131 runners who ran on him. Wow, that's bad. And that's without checking for any pick offs or blown hit-and-runs.
I'll tell you how: he is absolutely spineless and gutless turd who completely melts in the face of the slightest adversity. He piles up the nice K's when he sails through an easy inning on his natural ability, and then turns around and gets lit up the very next inning (or the next night) after falling behind a hitter and loses it completely. He's a 33 year old veteran with absolutely no poise whatsoever.
He is a documented cheater and a coward. Other than that, he's just what you want in a bullpen cog.
With Chris Young pitching and Josh Bard catching, baserunners were 30/30. Nice!
Josh Bard's big ten:
1) May 15 - Brandon Phillips BUT it was a Kendall Klassic: (PO) 3B (P-SS-3B). No credit there.
2) May 15 (yup, 2 in one game) - Brandon Phillips (yup, the same guy twice in one game). This one was a real CS.
3) May 16 - (yup, 3 in 2 days) - Josh Hamilton, on a strike-'em-out-throw-'em-out DP. He only had 6 stolen base opporunities on the year, so likely hit-and-run.
4) May 20 (nice week) - Ichiro! Going for third, sure, but it's Ichiro!, so Bard gets full credit. (though it did happen right after he stole second)
5) June 1 - Robert Fick - a Jason Kendall special - pick off - (P-SS)
6) June 7 - Russell Martin.
7) June 22 - Coco Crisp.
8) August 17. Jason Lane. Happened in the ninth inning. One of his only 2 SBA of the year. Possible hit-and-run gone awry.
9) September 4. Chris Snyder. Arizona's catcher. It was his only stolen base attempt of the year. Sounds like a botched hit-and-run. Oh wait - it was the back half of a double-steal. Well . . . I guess it counts. Kinda weak letting the lead runner take third, thoguh.
10) 9/25. Ken Frandsen.
2 Kendalls, and 2 probable hit-and-runs with slow runners. Plus he nailed a slow-footed catcher in the back half of a double steal.
The big one is after June 22, he only nailed 3.
After June 23, Estrada only nailed one.
On July 17, the Cubs aquired Kendall.
It was a glory time to be a baserunner in the NL. Holy crap, three historically dreadful performances going after baserunners all going on at the same time. Je-sus.
You don't see many contentions in this thread that Mota's likely to be good next season, do you?
(he is a reliever, so I suppose youneverknow when it comes to a single season, but if Mota never threw an inning for the Brewers, that would be OK, too)
On the contrary, there was much early pro-Estrada sentiment.
(Actually, the NY Times has a wonderfully anti-Mota, pro-Estrada PR fluffy piece, and how Estrada's got such a stellar reputation working with pitchers - nevermind that's one of the reasons he's getting run out of Milwaukee - and no mention of the baggage he's carrying along from his prior employers)
:)
I understand that both teams are happy about getting rid of their garbage. But I think the Mets do genuinely win on talent.
Wow. And I thought the Brewers' picking up Mota rocked. Are they TRYING to make sure the Cubs win the division next year?
Ditto. That 52/59 can't be right. I remember at one point, NL runners were something like 42 of 43 against him, and that "one" was a fluke play in which he threw Pujols out at home after getting a good bounce off the brick backstop (scored as a failed attempt to steal home).
And see my post above--one of those was Pujols, as I described. He only had one "real" caught stealing as a Cub.
Which jibes with my memory. I play first base in a coed softball league (largely because, well, I don't exactly have the arm to play short or center, even at that level of competition), and I'm almost completely serious when I say I probably throw better than Kendall does.
Clement, according to scouts I've talked to, can't throw well enough (at all, really) to catch. The best young catcher available according them is the DB's Miguel Montero, but Arizona is a smart organization and will want A LOT in return.
And see my post above--one of those was Pujols,
No. I went through them one-by-one in my post. They were Griffey and Morgan, both nabbed at second. Pujols might be listed by other sites as a caught steal, but b-ref doesn't recognize him as such.
Smart scouts.
I wrote my thoughts on this trade in the "Estrada gets his say (and it rhymes)" thread, but basically, I'm actually thinking Mota is the better player exchanged in this trade--and the guy sucks. That says it all.
From Estrada, I expect.290 OBP, 7 homers, 6 unintentional walks, 400 plate appearances (5 AB after September 1st), three fights with Rick Petereson and a couple of whiny tirades against Omar Minaya.
Sorry, couldn't let this one pass. I believe the equation starts with the "Angle of the Dangle..."
Maybe you meant that question for the Ordonez "Questions Only" thread?
GM 1: Our guy sucks worse and is more of a cancer than your guy.
GM 2: BS. Our guy blew our entire season!
GM 1: Trade!
I don't remember the source, but I distinctly recall that play being noted as Kendall's first caught stealing as a Cub. Regardless, the broader point (Kendall couldn't throw out Grandma Moses, despite her being long deceased) stands.
Fosse keeps a book and said that Kendall saves about as many runs over the course of a season as he does knock in runs while batting.
Can that be possible, without a fanciful definition of what catchers can actually do to save runs?
Well, better Forman than Elias, I suppose.
The stat makes sense, I guess--it's not like Albert Pujols is actually gonna be making a whole lot of "real" attempts to steal home.
That said--if a pitch in the dirt skips away from the catcher and the runner on first tries to take second and is thrown out, I could swear that's a CS, but I could be wrong. Is the determinant whether the pitch would, if the runner had been safe, have been scored a PB or WP?
Can that be possible, without a very fanciful definition of what a C could actually do to save a run?
Perhaps the between-the-lines reading is that Kendall's offense has negative value.
On the flip side, got to be happy for Mets fans that they got rid of Mota, much less got something useful in return.
A steal attempt comes when the pitch is being thrown. Pujols tried to advance after the ball had arrived at the plate. If a batter goes to second on a wild pitch/passed ball, it ain't a steal.
I don't think there's a chance the Mets win on talent. Mota has great stuff. He just struggles to put it together. Mota's high point was dominance as a reliever. Estrada's high point was a good offensive season for a catcher with lousy defense.
The #1 bonus is that Mota's money is guaranteed and Estrada's isn't if the Mets can find something better. If there's something good Minaya can pick up in the next week or so, this trade was Mota for nothing, or simply +$3.2M for the Mets. Mota wasn't pitching an inning for the 2008 Mets.
Whatever god-awful qualities Johnny Estrada may bring with him (and I don't doubt a word of what you described), the Mets' season is not going to turn on what he does.
I don't hate Mota like Sam does, but I agree with this. Mota pitched in high-leverage situations. Randolph would use him again and again and watch games get completely out of reach.
According to b-pro, Mota was about half a win worse than a replacement level reliever last year. Look at all the really terrible catchers out there. Is Estrada worse than replacement level?
1. Red Sox
2. Yankees
3. Mets
4. Cubs
5. ???
Either Giants or Cards. A lot of A's, too.
For all the good reasons the Brewers had to jettison Estrada, with the dearth of catching it seems they could have gotten more for him. I think there's a very good chance Estrada bounces back in his walk year and hits around .300 like he's capable. The elbow and knee surgeries might improve his throwing problems. As for Mota, there is almost no chance that he bounces back, or helps the team as anything other than fodder. It's amazing how some players can make careers on one big year. He hasn't posted an ERA under 4.50 since 2004. In nine big league seasons he's put up an ERA better than 4.00 three times. His propensity for the longball will kill him in Miller Park, especially against lefthanded hitters. Really the best hope for us is that he doesn't make the team, and that Kendall doesn't play more than half the time. I mean, good riddance to Estrada, but they did not improve the team with this.
Estrada:
vs RHP: .283/.328/.412
vs LHP: .269/.295/.387
Castro:
vs RHP: .228/.303/.411
vs LHP: .258/.340/.419
Is there any reason why this shouldn't be a straightforward platoon, and if so very possibly a good one?
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