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I'll take your word for this.
I think that this is a myth like the Mama Cass and the ham sandwich story. I just looked at her wiki page and it said that she actually went home and went into a coma there.
Louis Armstrong (he taught the world how to swing, both instrumentally and vocally)
Duke Ellington (refined jazz, made it sophisticated and upscale)
Bing Crosby (revolutionized the art of popular singing -- listen to his early '30s records for proof)
Billie Holiday (one of the two greatest female jazz vocalists)
Ella Fitzgerald (the other one; her songbook albums remain unequaled)
Benny Goodman (pioneered the swing era, the commercial peak for big band jazz)
Frank Sinatra (pop music's storyteller supreme for several decades, made the LP an art form)
Hank Williams (country music's seminal figure)
Elvis Presley (amalgamated blues, country, R&B;and pop into a distinctively different sound)
Ray Charles (arguably the most versatile American musician of them all -- jazz, soul, standards)
Michael Jackson (the last great Detroit Motown artist, the first great star of the rock video era)
There are a lot of fine artists who didn't quite make the cut, some because they had relatively brief careers (Bix Beiderbecke, Charlie Parker, Buddy Holly), some because their chief period of artistry came as part of a group (Connie Boswell, Diana Ross, Smokey Robinson, John Lennon, Paul McCartney, Brian Wilson). Others, such as Fats Waller, Bob Dylan, Dizzy Gillespie, Anita O'Day, Tony Bennett, Doris Day, Elvis Costello and Willie Nelson, would possibly rank among the second dozen. And I'm certainly omitting many more worthy artists.
To #105: I think of Gershwin primarily as a composer, not an artist, just as I would Irving Berlin, Cole Porter or Johnny Mercer. And I just added Dylan to my second tier of artists.
Are you trying to beat the NBA thread?
Armstrong
Holiday
Sinatra
Parker
I'll let the un-Americans stick theirs on top of Mt. Everest.
edit: And Miles Davis. Sorry Miles!
I think that this is a myth like the Mama Cass and the ham sandwich story. I just looked at her wiki page and it said that she actually went home and went into a coma there.
Good to know that, but the myth started pretty quickly. I heard it the next morning from a record store employee, who just said that (a) she'd collapsed on stage the night before, and (c) she died. Apparently the (b) part that you mention was left out of the story.
Come on... really? I mean his biggest hit was "I Want a New Drug" with different words.
And Johnny Cash.
Didn't he have some sleazy name like Dime Bag? I thought it funny the outpouring of sympathy for a guy with such an unsympathetic name.
Dimebag Darrell, it was over 4 years ago by now, and he wasn't in Pantera anymore. And I don't see what his name has anything to do with it?
That one didn't move me much for some reason. I don't remember the other kids being upset about it, either, and yet now and again I read that this is supposed to be that generation's JFK moment.
When Magic Johnson announced he was retiring due to the HIV virus, I was crushed. Back then we all thought it was essentially a death announcement.
I'm a dope! Good call.
Brian Wilson would probably add Brian Wilson!
edit: There should be a blues guy on the list, too. Robert Johnson or Muddy Waters or someone.
Second tier! I beg to differ, sir.
What I'll never, ever forget about that announcement is that Magic told the world that he wanted to become "a spokesman for the virus." Now that's on my personal Mt. Rushmore of celebrity quotes.
As much as I love Dylan, I would probably agree... Despite the fact that an awful lot of mega-stars (Springsteen, for one) cite him as an influence, he just didn't have the direct effect the other Rushmore types do.
I disagree. Every singer/songwriter after Dylan has been influenced by him. I'm usually a down with the baby boomers guy, but Dylan can't be overestimated.
edit: It occurs to me that James Brown has an argument to be in the pantheon. Talk about influence!
I was driving home from college the day he died, and every other station on the radio was playing only Grateful Dead. I'd been a casual fan before that, but that day in the car with people picking their favorite examples turned me into a serious, if not hardcore, fan.
(Oh, and there's no way Dylan belongs on a second tier.)
armstrong
elvis
sinatra
williams
everybody else owes a debt to one of those four.
Come on... really? I mean his biggest hit was "I Want a New Drug" with different words.
I think he meant the other Parker. Seems more like a one-hit wonder to me, but I never bought the album, so who knows.
At his peak in the 1960s, Dylan eas an extraordinary composer and performer, and in recent years he's come up with some solid albums. But he's had some artistic valleys, too -- the "Self-Portrait" album and his foray into Christian music around 1980.
Every artist who has ever lived has had artistic valleys.
I didn't say he didn't warrant sympathy. Only that I found the many phrases like, "Dimebag was such a sweetheart," to sound amusing in a contradictory way. My apologies if his death is still too fresh for you.
I'm not arguing against his influence, rather his direct influence.
By that, I mean despite all the artists that claim him as an influence, all of them had to basically learn to not try to be Dylan to reach greatness. The genius of Dylan as a lyricist was his ability to weave a story, but do it in a way that walked right up to the line of jumbled nonsense -- but never (or rarely) cross it.
You can certainly hear Dylan in Greetings from Asbury Park for example, but it was when Springsteen moved beyond that and into the more straightforward Born to Run and such that he became "Bruce Springsteen".
There's more of a direct connection between say... Elvis and those that came after him and owe homage to him.
Of course, now that I'm writing it -- I think I'm convincing myself that I'm wrong, and being such a sort of foundational influence means Dylan should be considered.
Indeed. Which makes it a most successful deadpan!
Birds sing
There's not a cloud in the sky
I see a bunch of hippies crying
Yeah, August 8th is a beautiful day
Also, how telling that Jacko's death got *just a little* more airtime than the Iranian massacre a day or two prior.
Add a young, murdered Peter Tosh to that list if you are any sort of Reggae fan.
Damn! I forgot Marley!
Purely on their catalog (and by that, I mean studio albums/original compositions) - it's awful hard to include him/them.
When you get right down to it, I think only Terrapin Station deserves any mention as a truly great album. Even then, it's more a great album than it is a groundbreaking album.
Don't get me wrong - I'm a fan, and I'm not denying the cultural phenomenon that is the Dead... but can you really include an artist purely on jam band chops and aura?
They say that death is sometimes a good career move.
Something Rod Stewart and Elton John should have been told about 35-40 years ago.
I'm sorry, I respect Hank Williams a ton, but we aren't just talking about regional figures here. Using some on this site's thinking on the Baseball HOF, I doubt that there was a single point in his career that a large consensus thought that he was the greatest musical artist during his career. Michael Jackson's peak just far surpasses anything Hank Williams ever dreamed of. Armstrong is a tough call but Jazz's influence on most popular music forms means that either he, Coltrane or Miles has to be somewhere on the short-list.
Separate to that he was also a borderline-retarded man-child.
I think this is one of those YMMV cases. Hank is freakin huge, and not just in America.
Oh, I didn't particularly care about his death (Pantera were already broken up and his other band sucked), though I can see why you would read my post that way.
Miles Davis
Sly Stone
John Coltrane
Dave Brubeck
Raymond Scott
Juan Atkins
Karlheinz Stockhausen
And Ian Curtis' suicide if you cut your teeth on postpunk.
Too, Marc Bolan's car-crash death (with the singer of the original "Tainted Love" at the wheel!) had to have had quite an impact on that generation (which includes me), particularly in the UK (which doesn't include me).
This strikes me as, ummm, debatable.
williams is not regional, but i'll get to that. michael jackson owes a BIG debt to armstrong, sinatra and elvis as a popular artist. it's like saying you want to put reagan on rushmore. who do you bump? and armstrong is the strongest nobrainer in the bunch. any jazz artist -- ANY jazz artist -- has to deal with his legacy, either directly (parker) or indirectly (coltrane, miles). not to mention his second act as a popular entertainer, which was even huger than his straight jazz career. again, if you put your guy on the mountain, who do you bump? the premise is four.
getting back to williams, the debt rock and roll owes to a performer like williams is undervalued. of the four figures here, williams is the one who most defines singer/songwriter. guys like dylan (who is well known for also idolizing elvis when he was young) got direction from how williams worked. and if you want to devalue country you do it at your peril. it's not my cup of tea, but williams is a towering figure, and there's way more country in pop music than people realize.
the four figures i put up defined popular music for better or for worse for everybody who came after in the past century.
OTOH if you gauged it by the amount of coverage in the Washington Post you'd think that the biggest celebrity death of all time was Chandra Levy's.
This strikes me as, ummm, debatable.
When you boys finish with that one, maybe you can tell us which is more important, men or women?
Women, and it's not even close.
Dylan is the progenitor of the singer-songwriter genre of performers. As annoying as some of them are, they are all indebted.
Dylan begat some wonderful bands ==>
Dylan begat the Byrds who begat a string of Pocos and Flying Burrito Brothers. That genre played out by the mid-70s, except for the Eagles.
Dylan begat the Band but I'm pressed to think of the Band as begatting any group (maybe I'm just not thinking on this one)
Dylan begat Springsteen. Now I happen to think that Springsteen started his decline with Born To Run so I think of him as closely tied to Dylan. :)
I have to go with a Small Rushmore, and would go with those whom I think had the deepest impact:
Armstrong
Williams
Elvis
Sinatra
The first three laid the groundwork for 3 American music forms; the last one set the standard by which singers are measured. Both Sinatra and Billie Holliday showed that you could empty your heart into a song but I think Frankie had the bigger influence.
all more than reasonable choices, but I'd argue that without Robert Johnson, you don't get Hank Williams or Elvis Presley... Robert has to bump one of them... Elvis, if it were up to me.
Just got back from the post office where the radio DJ just deneedled MJ's "Rockin' Robin"..."That is still one of the best songs Michael ever wrote!"
Meh...Goofy MTV breakthrough non-talent artist that came out of souless novelty kiddie soul act.
Next.
The Black Crowes, for one... I'm a huge Crowes fan, so I've always held The Band near and dear for that, if nothing else.
I think that this is a myth like the Mama Cass and the ham sandwich story. I just looked at her wiki page and it said that she actually went home and went into a coma there.
I had always heard that Tammi Terrell died on stage, collapsing in Marvin Gaye's arms. She did collapse on stage, and was later diagnosed with a malignant brain tumor. Odd how these stories survive for years.
Bah, everyone knows Billy Beane wrote that.
That's the second "Rockin' Robin" reference you made in the last two weeks.
As for music deaths, there's Sid Vicious's OD; though admittedly were stretching "music" to include that non-bass player.
And Bon Scott drowning on his own vomit. Anyone mentioned John Bonham taking one too many shots of tequila?
Greil Marcus once did a list of all 1970s rock deaths. He thought the term "survivor" was overused and that motivated him to look up all deaths from the decade and rank them based on three categories: previous work, future potential, how they died. IIRC, Hendrix and the leader singer of Lynard Skynard scored highest.
Hank was the more influential yodeler, though...
That one occurred to me as well, but the caveat you mention stopped me from mentioning it. (Of course, Sid was actually a pretty good singer, judging from the covers that came out after his death.)
Hank also gets points for being buried about halfway between work & my house. I can see why that might not strike anyone but me as particularly meaningful, though.
Wimp. Far more impressive was that drummer for Spinal Tap who choked to death on someone's else's vomit.
Anybody remember Dick Shawn?
from wiki
While performing on stage at UC San Diego's Mandeville Hall, Shawn began a comedy bit about himself and the audience surviving nuclear war. At one point in the act, Shawn portrayed a politician reciting campaign clichés, including: "If elected, I will not lay down on the job"; later, when he collapsed face down on the stage, the audience thought it was part of the act, unaware that he had actually suffered a massive heart attack.
After some time had gone by, there were catcalls. Finally, someone appeared on stage, kneeled down to examine Shawn, stood up and asked: "Is there a doctor in the house?" Another person came on stage, turned him over and began administering CPR. The audience was told to go home, but almost no one left since it appeared to be part of Shawn's act. When paramedics arrived, bewildered audience members began leaving, still unsure of what they had witnessed. A notice in the following day's San Diego Union newspaper (not on page one) clarified that Shawn had indeed died during the performance.[1][2]
He's one of the magnificent elements of the magnificent It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World.
Williams
Elvis
Sinatra
The first three laid the groundwork for 3 American music forms; the last one set the standard by which singers are measured. Both Sinatra and Billie Holiday showed that you could empty your heart into a song but I think Frankie had the bigger influence.
That's about as good a list as you can get, though it wouldn't be my personal one. But in terms of influence, didn't Jimmie Rodgers kind of begat Hank Williams?
Come On
(Dead Dead-Really, Really Dead)
You Know I'm Dead, I'm Dead-
You Know It
(Dead Dead-Really, Really Dead)
You Know I'm Dead, I'm Dead-
Come On, You Know
(Dead Dead-Really, Really Dead)
And The Whole World Has To
Answer Right Now
Just To Tell You Once Again,
Who's Dead . . .?
Is there a story to this? Because otherwise, I have to admit, I'm taken aback by it.
Small world - I went to college with Braff and a friend of mine still likes to tell people she went to a formal with him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_music_artists
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_albums_worldwide
He's one of the magnificent elements of the
magnificentshould have been better* It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World.And even more importantly, Lorenzo St. DuBois in The Producers.
*Lots of funny moments and a stupendous cast but like the Blues Brothers, a little bit less would have been more. YMMOV. (O stands for Obviously)
I recently heard some Crosby and it was actually brilliant stuff. He sounds much more modern than I thought. And now I'm going to say it, James Brown towers over Michael Jackson and I don't give a #### how many copies Thriller sold.
Sure, no doubt. Likewise, Buddy Bolden begat Armstrong, Der Bingle (somewhat) and others begat Sinatra (Ma Rainey to some degree for Billie Holliday) and Elvis was the bastard stepchild of numerous progenitors. What separates these folks is that they trancended what came before and have a lasting legacy.
god, you are such a self-important, affected, over-the-top c-unt, repoz. My city would be better if we took all the faux-erudite shits like you and loaded them into a cast-iron safe which we pushed out the back of a boat in Raritan Bay.
Of course, he also loses huge points for starring in White Christmas, a movie I hate so much that just knowing it exists makes me want to burn down an orphanage.
Repoz scores a hit!
When I learned of Philip K. Dick's death, I was left in a state approaching genuine shock. I'm unable to think of anyone else whose death would have anywhere near that impact on me. (Maybe if I'd been paying attention to comics when Jack Kirby died ...) When my favorite comics artist ever, John Severin, dies (he's 87 as I type this, so it'll obviously be happening before too very long) I imagine I'll be distinctly cheerless.
Drunky Dick Shawn pulled one the legendary all-time punk moves when he went on The Tonight Show (I believe Rich Little was hosting that night) and flipped over Johnny Carson's desk (ashtrays, coffee cups, pen holder etc all flew in the air) jumped in and pretended he was Washington crossing the Delaware!
Shawn was the dude.
Of course it is, but Mount Rushmore is the model here.
Will Eisner's death was a shock to me, since I'd spent most of the last year going through every book of his I could get my hands on. Like you, I wasn't paying attention to comics when Kirby passed away.
As for sports, I hope I'm not in a public place when Julius Erving dies. My all-time favorite athlete.
This is one of those things where I have to acknowledge that you're right but I kind of resent that you're jumping in to kill the fun.
Obviously, WwTd is a big Rushmore kind of guy. :)
Agreed, by the way, but it's a fun exercise for me, anyway. Think of all the genres getting short shrift here. Nary a mention of John Adams or Philip Glass or Charles Ives. No rappers. Barely a Pavement mention. Almost no blues. No Native Americans. Folk -- barely had a Woody Guthrie mention. And where does the artist who ties it all together, Weird Al, fit?
Of course, he also loses huge points for starring in White Christmas, a movie I hate so much that just knowing it exists makes me want to burn down an orhpanage.
I can't even imagine that Crosby will ever be remembered as much more than a very good version of the sort of sleepy-eyed crooners who used to play straight men in the Marx Brothers' movies. He gets a certain amount of brownie points for his undoubted professionalism, and for his early work that was heavily jazz influenced. But by the 40's he'd become little more than an older version of Perry Como, with the horror of "White Christmas," a few dozen godawful B movies, and a million stale Bob Hope golf jokes. Sinatra is timeless, but Crosby's style as dated as Rudy Vallee or the Monkees.
I knew WSPanic would come through with me. :)
Everyone else doesn't know who the #### he is.
The set up for this throwaway line was perfect, Edmundo. Cheers!
In a straightjacket.
I've read next to no Eisner, but his death genuinely saddened me as well, because his greatness is so obvious.
Julius Schwartz died just a few months before I started getting back into the field. I'm pretty sure it would've hit me pretty hard. I found those reminiscences published in DC's tribute one-shots a few months later pretty stirring, especially Alan Moore's.
I had to look him up. As a fan of post WWII jazz and some fusion, you'd figure jam bands would be right up my alley. But the only one I really got into was the Allmans. I like some Dead, but it's mainly the stuff that got AOR airplay.
That's why I think that people are underestimating Michael Jackson's importance. While I do think that Sinatra's value is inflated by his celebrity even more than MJ, the fact is that people today are still reflecting on his music. Watch anyone listening to the radio today as all manner of stations (R&B;, Pop, Hip-Hop, Oldies, Comtemporary and even some Rock) play extended sets dedicated to Michael where diverse audience not only recognize his music but still enjoy it including young and old. You can't say something similarily about a guy like Hank Williams.
So its settled
Armstrong
Elvis
Sinatra
Jackson
Armstrong
Elvis
Sinatra
Jackson
Nope. James Brown kicks MJ's ass. In fact, MJ is just James Brown watered down for popular consumption.
Armstrong
Crosby
Presley
Charles
My songwriter Mt. Rushmore:
Gershwin
Mercer
Hank Williams
Simon or Sondheim
A lot of it is just random chance, but he still (has) played an important role in my formative years. Hey, I admitted it was pathetic! ;)
i'm glad we're in agreement. see my post #118.
:-)
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