Man the one time I'm rooting for the Cards and they freakin lose.

It's hard to imagine a team that relies on Ryan Franklin in an important spot like that getting very far. Ryan Franklin may have an ERA+ slightly above 100, but he will destroy your hope whenever he can. A lot of people think David Bell's evil was solely responsible for the Phillies' falling short in 2006, but Ryan Franklin was the real culprit.

The Cardinals' post-season chances went from something like 30% to 10% in the span of four days in July.

I don't think I'll be hearing about PECOTA's problem overrating the Brewers for a few weeks.

Man the one time I'm rooting for the Cards and they freakin lose.

I think Cub fans should be happy. The Brewers sweep of the Cardinals decreases the chances of the Cubs winning the NL Central but probably increases their chances of making the playoffs.

Cards announcers are pissed with Brew Crew admiring their taters. Surprised Fielder didn't go down after Braun's plate pose.

Not a fan of it myself but the habit seems ubiquitous among players.

Maybe if the Cards relievers stopped playing tee ball the Crew wouldn't get the chance.

Cards announcers are pissed with Brew Crew admiring their taters

When they are employed by the same team as Pujols (and before this season, Edmonds), it's sort of hard to say they've got the moral high ground.

Not a big fan of the admiring stuff in general, but everybody does it now, unfortunately.

Yeah. Hall's was fringy, but Braun really stared his down.

#### THIS ############# ####### PIECE OF ############# ####### #### ######## ######### ############ #### #### ####### ####### #### #### ############# ####### #### ######## ######### ############ #### #### ####### ####### #### ################# ####### #### ######## ######### ############ #### #### ####### ####### #### ################# ####### #### ######## ######### ############ #### #### ####### ####### #### ####!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ########!

I, for one, have never really understood what's the big deal about admiring your home run fly... IF you're absolutely certain it's a no-doubt home run. I've seen Manny Ramirez more than once barely get into second after spending a few seconds admiring what he presumed was a home run, after it hit the wall.

But if you hit a ball 450 feet... as a pitcher, I don't understand why I should consider it such a big deal if the hitter does that. I feel the same way about pitchers pumping their fists or whatever after a strikeout. What's the problem with players celebrating when they succeed? None of this stuff is over the top.

For the record, hell, yes, if I'm a catcher I'm going to yell at the hitter to get his ass moving around the bases after he hits a bomb. But as a fan... I just don't have a problem with a guy watching his home run leave the park.

I ####### love homer staredowns. Braun's was awesome. Best homer celebration since Bret Boone's bat flip days. He's got a future.

I think the admiration is excusable in certain situations. This constituted a scenario where watching your shot leave the yard was fine. The Brewers are close to chasing down the NL Central leaders. The home run erased a deficit and put them ahead.

In most situations, though, it's out of a place. I remember being at the opener of that Cubs/Red Sox series at Wrigley three years ago. The Cubs were crushing the Sox. David Ortiz homered in the ninth with the team almost down double digits and he admired his shot. Yeah, impressive, I guess, but the longball did virtually nothing for his team's chances of actually coming back in that game.

I ####### love homer staredowns.

Me too. I think it adds flavor to the game. When I was growing up, people talked #### while they played sports. I think it's fun.

Man, I really enjoy this Cardinals team*, but this loss probably sealed it. I like a lot of the Brewer players, and they're due for a playoff trip. So best of luck to them. I'll now pull for the winning season and otherwise resort to "anyone but the Cubs" mode.

As for the Braun thing, normally wouldn't bother me, but it looked as though he cut a glare directly at Franklin right at the end, which is a little much. But none of that takes away from the fact that Brewers just came into Busch and kicked our asses.

(*####-#### bullpen excepted)

Agreed. I'm not down on Hall or Braun by any means.

As background, these teams don't like one another beginning with the managers. As some here may recall, Yost let Tony get in his head last September leading to a HBP of Pujols that resulted in a big Cardinal rally and in turn a Brewer loss when they were desperate to stay close to Chicago.

Earlier in July the CRew's slide really started in St. Louis losing 3 of 4 with one game turning on a Braun error. After the game a Cardinal was quoted to the effect that he knew the ball had a chance because it was hit to Ryan.

And this season even when the Crew was struggling early they have played St. Louis tough.

The post Braun bomb dugout shot of Duncan & LaRussa was classic. They looked like they were just stuck with a large bar bill and hadn't even gotten a decent jag on.

Either way, it was a great series for Brewers fans. I need to remember to enjoy it too, because I'm pretty sure next week is going to be brutal. I'll be at 3 of the 4 Cubs games, and I hate (hate!) when the Cubs come to Miller Park. Baseball is supposed to be about slow-building tension, but those things are just three hour anxiety festivals.

The post Braun bomb dugout shot of Duncan & LaRussa was classic. They looked like they were just stuck with a large bar bill and hadn't even gotten a decent jag on.

Must have gone to a bar in NY then.

Just checked. Yup. 9-4 Milwaukee in the season's series so far. And that includes five one-run victories and three in extra innings.

Not all the extra inning wins were 1-run wins. Just listing all the close games.

The screwy thing was the ball barely crept over the fence. Would have been funny to see the lead run stuck at first base instead of second had the ball gone off the wall.

As for the Braun thing, normally wouldn't bother me, but it looked as though he cut a glare directly at Franklin right at the end, which is a little much.

That would make it even better. I've never been a fan of the idea that you are supposed to be courteous in victory. Builds rivalries/intensity/all that jazz.

Man, I really enjoy this Cardinals team*, but this loss probably sealed it. I like a lot of the Brewer players, and they're due for a playoff trip. So best of luck to them.



Ditto. We've still got '06, any ways. Here's to the Brewers; at least they're not the Cubs.

Ditto. We've still got '06, any ways. Here's to the Brewers; at least they're not the Cubs.

You guys are far too negative. The Cardinals are still in it. They aren't as talented as the other two teams but that was true before the season started. It's not even close to being over.

Eh. They're three games behind two significantly better teams now; I think the odds against them are pretty long at this point, and rest mainly with Sheets getting hurt again soon/Yost's general incompetence, and/or the Cubs turning into the Cubs. That is, the Cardinals need to continue to play above what I and most others thought was their talent level, and hope one of the two contenders in front of them collapses. It's possible, but I'd want about 5:1 odds before I'd think about betting on it.

Russlan:

But the core issue is that the bullpen is now exhausted and by my reckoning no reinforcements are readily available. Tony had to use a lot of guys right out of the chute in the Padres series and again against the Crew. This after a half season of carrying guys like Wellemeyer, Looper, etc. who are 5-6 inning pitchers.

Saw this firsthand last year. Not a winning approach. At some point you HAVE to get 8-9 innings from a starter. There might be ONE or possibly TWO guys who can pitch all the time out of the pen. But not FIVE. Or SIX. Just doesn't happen.

It will undermine the rest of the season. With Ludwick likely to slip back, Duncan out, and Pujols CLEARLY battling a serious owie which has sapped his power the team has some challenges ahead.......

Colby Rasmus for Mike Gonzalez!

</levski>

i'll go with what russlan said. lotta ball to be played, y'all.

but i still think i'm going to hurl.

Didn't Rasmus get hurt the other night? Torn MCL??

But the core issue is that the bullpen is now exhausted and by my reckoning no reinforcements are readily available.

There are all sorts of rumors about trades, though -- Fuentes, Ohman. They may just pull the trigger now (or soon) to bring in reinforcements and keep themselves close.

Didn't Rasmus get hurt the other night? Torn MCL??


Not like the Braves are significant this season. Might as well stockpile good prospects for relievers.

EDIT : plus the cards owe us for Waiwright. Sure we got our division title thanks to that, but they got a world series out of it!

There are all sorts of rumors about trades, though -- Fuentes, Ohman. They may just pull the trigger now (or soon) to bring in reinforcements and keep themselves close.

That would be a horrible mistake. The Cardinals are not deep on minor league talent and need to keep what they have, not trade it off for an unlikely run at the playoffs this year. Especially not for a relief pitcher.

Wainwright and Carpeneter are due back soon, right? That'll give them a boost, especially Wainwright. They could move Looper back to the pen and acquire a reliever. The Cards are resourceful and TLR is a great manager. I think they'll figure out a way to stay in the race.

But the core issue is that the bullpen is now exhausted and by my reckoning no reinforcements are readily available.

The other night Hrabosky was talking about the possibility of moving Wainwright back to the bullpen after he's activated. Not sure about the wisdom of that, but it's out there.

and Pujols CLEARLY battling a serious owie which has sapped his power the team has some challenges ahead.......

This is the big thing for me. His bat just looks measurably slower right now, and he's got to be hurting. Without him in vintage form on a nightly basis, this team just doesn't have a realistic shot.

The Cardinals are very deep in minor league talent, but aside from Rasmus, what they have isn't very good. IOW what they have is what you're supposed to give up for relievers.

sign barry bonds!

:-p

Yeah, and if they give up a couple C prospects for a good reliever, that's fine, but have you heard what O'Dowd wants for Brian Fuentes?

If O'Dowd wants to live in a world where the only way to get Fuentes is with Rasmus, then he's not serious about trading Fuentes.

The screwy thing was the ball barely crept over the fence.

Didn't Tom Lawless pose in his 87' World Series HR, despite only having 1 other HR ever and that ball scraped the back of the fence too.

The thing is O' Dowd doesn't need to trade Fuentes. They are 6 games out of a playoff spot, while the Cardinals are just 3, but the teams the Rockies are chasing aren't very good, and the teams the Cards are chasing are. He has no reason to trade him away for mediocre prospects when he's got a guaranteed 2 draft picks coming for him in the offseason.

I really want the Giants to win the NL West. Just to confound all the preseason predictions. Would help if Brian ####### Sabean got out from under his bed and signed Barry.

The prospects he might get from St. Louis are about as good as what he can expect in the draft, and he doesn't have to pay signing bonuses. If he really won't budge on Rasmus, then the Cardinals move on to Mahay or Marte or something.

Shouldn't the Cardinals be seeking a starter or two who can go deep so as not to exhaust the bullpen?

The prospects he might get from St. Louis are about as good as what he can expect in the draft, and he doesn't have to pay signing bonuses.

Yeah, but by not trading Fuentes, he retains a half-season of Fuentes' services. So is saving on the signing bonuses worth more than trying to stick it out in that goofy division?

The thing is O' Dowd doesn't need to trade Fuentes. They are 6 games out of a playoff spot, while the Cardinals are just 3, but the teams the Rockies are chasing aren't very good, and the teams the Cards are chasing are.

That's the glass half full view. One could also say that at least one of the teams the Rockies are chasing will probably stop underachieving. And that by being three games out of the NL Central lead, the Cardinals are one game out of the wild card lead.

It is just amazing that the Rockies are seen as having any chance at the playoffs. There are 24 teams in MLB with a better record than the Rockies. But then again, there are 15 teams in MLB with a better record than the NL West leading Dbacks.

And that by being three games out of the NL Central lead, the Cardinals are one game out of the wild card lead

/nitpick
Cards are three games out of the wild card at the moment, actually.

I didn't catch this:

As fans filed out of the ballpark after Salomon Torres struck out the side for his 19th save, the St. Louis fans chanted, “We want a closer!”

MIL Journal-Sentinel

Schlesinger said he expected crowds in excess of 40,000 for all three Houston games. With the club winning and people excited about the acquisition of left-hander CC Sabathia ... the Brewers are virtually guaranteed to surpass their record attendance of 2,869,144, set last year.

In fact, if things continue to break right for the Brewers, they could reach the 3 million mark in attendance, a level previously thought unattainable in a market this size.

"Sometime next week, we should bash last year’s record (in advance sales),” Schlesinger said. “As far as 3 million, all I’ll say is everything is trending to get to that number."
...
“The numbers were outstanding before we acquired CC, in terms of advanced sales,” Schlesinger said. “Since the trade, the pace has picked up. We call it the ‘CC Surge.’

“With the convergence of his acquisition and us playing so well, we’re selling tickets.”

Beyond ticket sales, merchandising, advertising and television ratings are at all-time highs for the Brewers.

MIL Journal-Sentinel

Further evidence of one of baseball's foundational truths: The one thing, the only thing, that will consistently get people to come to your park in large numbers is winning.

CC Surge

Don't tell Obama, he still doesn't think the surge worked.

Further evidence of one of baseball's foundational truths: The one thing, the only thing, that will consistently get people to come to your park in large numbers is winning.

Bill Veeck must strongly disagree with your premise.

(Are there attendance numbers for the years he ran the Browns?)

Colby Rasmus for Mike Gonzalez!

Dude, which team are you rooting for?
Anyhow, isn't Colby hurt? Busted knee or something of that sort?

It's really a shame the Cardinals couldn't trade a spare keystone bagger for Rauch. Like that Miles kid... or Ryan... or maybe Bo Hart? You gotta figure they're worth a lot more than Bonifacio. If it weren't for Rizzo's love for all things Dbacks...

Anyhow, Ryan Braun is awesome. Ironically, in my NL only keeper league, I traded Jason Isringhausen for him a couple of years ago. I didn't listen to Salfino to trade Braun FOR a crappy closer...

Dude, which team are you rooting for?
Anyhow, isn't Colby hurt? Busted knee or something of that sort?

Have you seen the Braves outfield this year? I think they average a sub 700 OPS. Might be the only team which has started all five of its infielders in the first five spots consistently.

Knee injury , big deal. If he can still hit, he can put in right field, and be called an upgrade. Relief pitching is not our worry. Pitching is not our worry!

<i>Didn't Tom Lawless pose in his 87' World Series HR<i?

Wasn't posing, he was in shock.

Have you seen the Braves outfield this year? I think they average a sub 700 OPS. Might be the only team which has started all five of its infielders in the first five spots consistently.

Eric Byrnes for Teixeira. Eric can't run, but his spirit is a fiend on wheels... and the guy can hit and field a lot better than Joe on "The Family Guy". Word.

a few things, I have no problems with posing, what Braun did was something to really upset any fan (except Brewer) Pujols, Ortiz, Edmonds, Manny etc, when they pose they are generally still moving towards first base, Braun just stood there.

two, whoever said the Cardinals don't have a deep minor league was wrong, they have a strong minor league, maybe not the strongest in baseball, but in the past three years the improvement has been noticeable, to the point that some positions will require a decision to be made. Outside of Rasmus, most of the other prospects aren't considered A level but plenty of B level prospects.
The Cardinals are waiting on pitching help from Carpenter and Wainwright, and don't really consider acquiring a starting pitcher to be that big of a priority, whether that is the right attitude or not could be debated, but their goal is to stay within range and hope to be within striking distance if Carpenter and Wainwright return.

I think it's also a bit early to count the Cardinals out, true they shouldn't be favored of course, but this boards tendency to over react to any streaks is always hilarious, and the insistence that teams can't go on and put their own winning streak is always fun to laugh at.

Pujols, Ortiz, Edmonds, Manny etc, when they pose they are generally still moving towards first base, Braun just stood there.

You may want to watch the video again.

He did the slow trot to first thing I hate from anyone, but he was "still moving towards first base".

After careful consideration of all posts, I think #9 wins the thread.

After my own careful consideration, #9 should be spit and roasted for forcing me to maximize my browser to avoid having to horizontal scroll.

You guys are far too negative. The Cardinals are still in it. They aren't as talented as the other two teams but that was true before the season started. It's not even close to being over.

No, it's over. A team with a bullpen this obscenely awful cannot reasonably be considered any kind of contender. Right now, essentially the only ways the Cardinals can win a game is by either having the starter pitch a complete game (not likely) or by getting a walkoff hit at home--there is no lead that this bullpen is capable of protecting.

Craig K is a habitual offender of breaking the page width.

STONE HIM!

Hey, when your ####### team blows 3 leads in 4 games, you can break the page width, too.

Hey, when your ####### team blows 3 leads in 4 games, you can break the page width, too.

If you're a Mets fan, you're allowed to crash BTF even if your team blows 1 lead to a division rival. And everyone owes you a bucket of sympathy.

STONE HIM!

God, I wish I could be stoned; I'd stop caring about htis team then.

Touché.

I didn't think much of the Brewers' stares other than Hall's brief glance into the Cards' dugout. It's not egregious to watch the flight of a ball that's going to be either a fly out or a home run.

Seeing these debates just reminds me of the gulf that separates sports like football, where ridiculing your opponent is a passion to be indulged as often as possible, from baseball, where the slightest hint of an offense can touch off a media and beanball war.

No, it's over. A team with a bullpen this obscenely awful cannot reasonably be considered any kind of contender. Right now, essentially the only ways the Cardinals can win a game is by either having the starter pitch a complete game (not likely) or by getting a walkoff hit at home--there is no lead that this bullpen is capable of protecting.

The Cards have a 4.23 relief ERA, tied for 11th in the NL. That's clearly not good, but I don't know how that's "obscenely awful." This run-of-the-mill-bad bullpen will improve with the return of Carpenter and Wainwright, both of whom will bump some relatively capable starter to the bullpen and hopefully give Jimenez/Izzy their walking papers. Factor in a trade for a reliever and the Cardinals should end up with a league average pen by the beginning of August. With this offense and a solid rotation, that may be good enough for 90 wins.

The Cards have a 4.23 relief ERA, tied for 11th in the NL. That's clearly not good, but I don't know how that's "obscenely awful."

Their middle relief might be OK, but it seems it's the back end that's killing them.
Using MLB.com's splits, their split for "late innings" has STL with an ERA of 5.97 (MIL is next worst in the NL at 4.33). The Cards' 21 HRA in that situation is also the worst.

In those "late innings" situations, MLB.com lists the follow numbers for STL:
120.2 IP
152 H
82 R
21 HR
89 SO
54 BB

ESPN has the Cardinals' "close and late" ERA as 5.47, far and away the worst in baseball. League average is 3.03, with the next worst team being the Brewers at 4.15.

Last year, however, the Cards had a c&l;ERA of 2.39--the best in baseball--with largely the same players in the pen: Flores, Franklin, Isringhausen et al., not counting this year's addition of Kyle McClellan, a solid reliever who has been the Cards' best arm all year. This is an ok bullpen that been slightly below average overall, but particularly--and possibly historically--bad in close ballgames. That's an indication of the role of variance, not the overall quality of the pen, which is far from "obscenely awful."

God, I wish I could be stoned;

me too.

It's not egregious to watch the flight of a ball that's going to be either a fly out or a home run.

Thank you for using the proper word, "watch," rather than the loaded term "admire."

There were 50,000 people in that stadium last night watching the flight of Braun's home run, but for some reason, one and only one of those people gets accused of "admiring" it.

I think the whole thing with celebrations/watching jacks etc. could be called Lou Gehrig Syndrome. There is still this expectation, IMO, embedded deep in baseball fan/media culture, that all players should act like Lou Gehrig.

So, when someone does not--Jose Reyes, Ryan Braun--fans/players/media types associated with the losing team that was "dissed"--get twitchy.

I commented on the current Phillies/Mets thread that I think it shows the plusses--I know there are minuses--of the unbalanced schedule. I think a rip-roaring three-way Mil/StL/CHC race will be an example of the same thing.

I think Cub fans should be happy. The Brewers sweep of the Cardinals decreases the chances of the Cubs winning the NL Central but probably increases their chances of making the playoffs.

Given the way the Cubs have looked on the road, there's a significant difference between their having home field in the playoffs and not.