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Webb: 138
Lincecum: 164
Santana: 163
Bills hasn't been as good as Lincecum or Santana this year, but he's been just as good as Webb was this year.
One more thing about Billingsley: he's held RHB to OPS of .621 this year, vs. 761 to LHB. So that would give him extra advantage vs. the RHB heavy Cubs lineup. Given that Fukudome and even Edmonds aren't really that good, I won't be surprised if the Cubs have a really hard time scoring runs again tomorrow
[edit] OK, I looked. Edmonds posted .937 OPS with the Cubs. Damn
Either way, this is Billingsley's first big stage, I don't really expect it to be smooth sailing.
Combined line from the starters of the last 3 Cub pitching games:
11 IP
17 H
13 R
13 ER
13 W
9 K
261 pitches
141 strikes - over half!
Losses I can accept. Bad days I can understand. That ain't what goes on. They're choking. Plain and simple. Lilly & Hill looked self-conscious and ill at ease in '07. Dempster clearly was drinking from the same well.
I've said all year that as Zambrano goes, so go the Cubs. I've never felt that so strongly as now. If he can have a strong outing and give the team some breathing room, they just might stop wetting their pants every time they've stepped on the field. If they fall down 0-2, forget the odds that they can come back, it would be a moral victory if no one came to the plate holding the wrong end of the bat.
They're playing tight, again. It's worth noting that Piniella has a pretty bad record in the postseason when he's supposed to win. He overmanages (last year yanking Zambrano in a tie game in Game 1 even though it was early; his manuevers the last week of this year) making his players self-conscious. His big sucess, the 1990 Reds, were underdogs the entire way. The 1995 Mariners came back from a 2-0 games to nothing deficit to a Yank team with a slightly better winning percentage. Meanwhile, the 116-win 2001 juggernaut stumbled its way to a narrow win in the ALDS before flopping in the ALCS. He's lost 6 straight postseason games. The Cubs have lost 7 - setting a new franchise record (the 1989-98 teams lost 6 straight).
It's worth noting that when the Yanks got rid of Soriano, part of the knock on him was that he wasn't any good in the postseason.
With 7 walks tonight, Ryan Demptser tied his career best. He's only done it twice in the past, both in 1999. It's only the second time all year he walked the bases loaded in one inning. It's the first time in his entire MLB career he walked the bases loaded and then gave up a grandslam.
Then after the slam, the entire offense curled up in a fetal position, getting one man to third base the rest of the way.
It's hard to describe how frustrating this is -- the team actually has the talent. Fat lot of good it does them if they choke as badly as possible.
I foresee an LA sweep.
Webb: 138
Lincecum: 164
Santana: 163
Looking at OPS+ and ERA+ for the Dodger is a very risky thing to do right now. B-ref uses '07 park factors until the season is over, and it still hasn't generated the official ones for this year. Right now, it's listed as a considerable hitters park, of all things, while I've heard that it actually played as a noticable pitchers park in the course of the year.
Billingsley still had a helluva year, but he wasn't up there with Webb & Co.
Billingsley has been a guy I've followed closely, because he's on my fantasy team(and one of my keepers for next year), and I am pretty big on him. He's been damn good since his rough start(which I think was in part to his misuse during a rain delay, and a ill-advised relief appearance), and basically he's right behind Lincecum and Joba in my books for young pitchers I would want going forward.
I have no idea how a 23 year old can be so good for a playoff bound L.A. Dodger team, and yet he's nowhere to be found on the national radar. I blame Manny.
Really? Watching the game from over here, I thought the Cubs were playing fairly loose. Then again, I was more focused on how the Dodgers were doing, especially after the DeRosa two run shot.
But I don't think that will happen. I think the Cubs get Billingsley out of the game before the end of the 6th and end up winning a close, low scoring game.
That's distressing to read, because I can see it, too. And I honestly believe that this is their best chance to win it all with the same core.
I really hate the short series. The best team isn't always going to prevail in the seven-game set, but the short series leaves little room for error and you often get a lot of upsets as a result.
Am not sure it's as excitement as much as it's control of the bottom part of the strike zone. So it'll come down to the umpire, and then Billingsley's ability to adjust to his strike zone accordingly. I think Lowe was a bit frustrated with the ump earlier in the game but managed to pull through. If Billz can do the same, the Cubs may be in a lot of trouble tomorrow
My more reasoned answer: There's no reason to panic yet. Seriously. None. They lost a game. Was it an important game? Yes. Did Pre-2008 Demp rear his ugly head for the first time this year, at a most inopportune time? Yes. Did the offense go into an inexplicable shell the extent of which we've only seen a few times this year? Yes. Is Manny a beast? Oh, hell yes. I could only laugh hysterically after he hit a ball that was about to bounce off the plate 400+ feet. Seriously. I felt the way I felt after Steve Smith slid down the goalposts at Soldier Field during the Bears playoff game in '05: you can either cry, or you can laugh and shake your head and marvel at a spectacular feat performed by your opponent.
So what does this all mean for tomorrow? Not a ####### thing.
Chad Billingsley's numbers are phenomenal. So were Dempster's this year. Billingsley could crack under the playoff pressure and forget how to throw strikes tomorrow. He could throw strikes and not have it matter as the Cubs' offense remembers how good they are and club the #### out of him. Z could have a great game. No one knows what's going to happen tomorrow and anyone who says they do is full of ####.
The Cubs didn't choke tonight. They lost. They lost because the Dodgers were patient enough to let Demp get himself in trouble, and Loney came up with a huge grand slam, and Lowe pitched a great game. I give the "curse" no credit. I give it all to the Dodgers. Good game, guys.
I refuse to despair over the bad that could occur without considering that it's equally likely that good could occur.
Oh, and for my Cub fan brethren that participate in tomorrow's Chatter (I'll be at class most of the evening and will probably catch the rest of the game at a bar afterwards): DON'T rise to the bait of the trolls and the haters. They don't deserve it.
Go Cubs. There is no next year. WIN.
(Not that there's anything wrong with dire we're-gonna-be-swept predictions...that's another good way of handling it.)
And if you don't like Cub fans, stay out of Cub game Chatters. Shee.
Way to paint with a broad brush, a$$hole. Sorry your guys are home picking splinters out of their asses. Oh, wait--no, I'm not.
A similar situation arises tonight as the Cubs face a starter who has done fairly well against them, and keeps the ball in the ballpark. The difference is that Billingsley is a bit like Dempster and Zambrano and is subject to lapses in his control. The Cubs have to make him throw strikes. Of course, the Dodgers will be thinking the same thing against Zambrano.
I think either the Cubs get swept or they win the series.
And shockingly the Cardinals troll shows up to respond to a post that I have a really hard time finding in this thread to call all of us trolls. Magnificent.
Maybe it's the DH.
Though I suppose Mets trolls and iskvel can give them a good match.
Just be glad you're not him. It'd suck to have to clean all that semen off your keyboard following the Cubs' loss last night.
Well, when your entire existence revolves around the Cubs' continued suckage, it really fecks with your equilibrium to have your team bend over for the Cubs as the Cardinals have done of late. That, and when you hail from as miserable a hilljack town as St. Louis, you have to have SOMETHING to hang your hat on.
Shouldn't that be "KAH-ma," you small, small man?
Of course, he can claim to be right thanks to that garbage time 6 game winning streak to end the season. Way to hang tough guys!
As a result of which they only finished 11.5 games out. Congratu-feckin'-lations.
In my view, he was throwing way too hard. He was *constantly* being clocked at 93 or 94; ordinarily he tops out at 93, and then only occasionally. I think that cost him any semblance of command over his location. In short, I think he was too jacked up.
Because Lou Piniella didn't try hard enough to ensure the Phillies won the division by using his "A" team throughout the last week against the Mets, even though the Cubs had locked up home field. Never mind that the Cubs split the series, and came within an eyelash of winning 3 of 4.
And because High Standards Boy, the Small, Small Man apparently felt sympathy for Harris's resultant sore vagina.
Ah, that's right. And those would be the NL East champion Phillies, correct?
So they tell me.
Of course, they DID win the division by a margin smaller than the number of Cub wins over the Mets this year...
He's a Red Sox fan. I'm not sure why he got so worked up over that series, where Lou seemed to be reasonably balancing his team's needs with his responsibilities to the other playoff contenders to field a competitive team.
Because he's a tool. Piniella's use of his roster was completely reasonable. (As I noted at the time, the Cubs were playing the Mets and Brewers all week; those two teams were in more direct competition with each other than they were with the Phils, and thus had more to lose or gain from the Cubs' games with those teams. Yet, somehow, I heard not a single complaint about Piniella's game management from a single Brewer or Met fan on this board, of whom there are a bunch.)
dempster just could NOT find the plate. he was already darn lucky to K ethier with the bases loaded the inning before. yeah dana de muth missed a few pitches, but for both pitchers. and the ball calls were NOT close.
i just wish it had been zambrano pitching. i really hope the dodgers beat his brains in. jerk!!!!
and i don't have words enough to describe the happiness i had watching jim F edmonds hit a ball to deep center and him thinkin it was just like 04 and miceli - only to see it die on the warning track
i HATE jim edmonds. &*$%&#@! hot dog. only cards player i can think of i HATED.
- and spahnnie,
i still LUUUUVVVV you boy. really i do. in spite of who you root for. i know u were born that way and you can't help it...
Yeah, that was darned rude of him to no-hit the Astros.
Actually, no. My parents grew up Phillie fans. I became a Cub fan at age 10.
it wasn't the no hitting. my NIECE would no hit them that day. it was the rude remarks. Z is on my permanent shttlist for that.
and you left the phillies for cubs????????????
oh honey what on EARTH happened?
not that i am exactly miss phillies luvvvver, mind
even though i AM rooting for brad lidge 4EVAH
I know that most everyone hates him for the way he acts on the mound, I've never heard of any rude remarks.
oh honey what on EARTH happened?
not that i am exactly miss phillies luvvvver, mind
even though i AM rooting for brad lidge 4EVAH
I wasn't a Phillie fan--my parents were, and I didn't really start following baseball till I was 9. (The 1980 World Series was the first one I remember being aware of, and I wanted the Phillies to win it because my parents did, but that didn't make me a "Phillies fan.") Just making the point that I wasn't a Cub fan from birth. Before I became a Cub fan, I tried being a Tiger fan briefly (I grew up in Michigan), but it didn't take.
How the hell's being a Phillie fan preferable, in any case? They're the one franchise that's been around the entire World Series era that's managed to win fewer championships than the Cubs, notwithstanding the Cubs' 100-year drought.
I apparently missed whatever Zambrano's "rude remarks" were.
Z has damm near no-hit the astros a few times. i think one time he took a nono into like the 8th and someone like burke or bruntlett broke it up. so it isn't the pitching. or the fact that he always acts like a dickk on the mound
so it is not like i had luuuuvv turned to hate or something
and it is not like i expected him to throw someone a cookie niether
but he most certainly DID ,make RUDE remarks about the astros players being whiners (and worse) and it wasn't HIM got no sleep for 2 days and had no electric and was all stressed out from seeing parts of his city and neighbors in ruins
you KNOW that didn't none of the FOOTBALL teams talk about the NOLA saints like that
it is just bad manners.
there is a time to grab penis and wave it around i guess but that sure wasn't it...
didn't know u grw up in michigan. learn something new every day. and not rooting for the tigers back when they were good?
as for picking cubs over phils, well, here and i guess i thought most kidz grow up rooting for their parents teams. i guess your parents didn't really get u into baseball like my mama did me.
but why CUBS?
and it is interesting i don't remember cubs fans invading the Dome even back in 98 at the height of sammy fever. first time i even remember seeing moren a handful at the Box was 03 - and the most obnoxious ones possible come.
I'm a contrarian. Besides, the Cubs were on WGN 150 times a year in those days and played all their home games in the afternoon, so I could watch 'em whenever I came home from school.
makes sense
it is a shame that these days MLB got exactly zero interest in promoting to kidz. i remember watching game 6 in 1986 so it HAD to have started right after skool.
what is great about these playoffs is we have got 3 PM games so as my kidz can watch too. even if it is not astros. and actually it is a lot more fun because i get to explain to them more about the pitching and the strategy because it don't interfere with my keeping score and i don't have to watch replays
sigh
writing that blog is getting really tiresome sometimes. i spend WAAAY too much time at it
I've found that it's the case for most visiting fans. If they went there specifically for the game (not talking a family vacation here), then American sports fan nature tends to lean toward obnoxiousness.
I got to witness this first-hand a little over a year ago. In my other persona as a Northern Illinois University football fan, I got to deal with about 40,000 Iowa fans at Soldier Field who were only too happy to inform me that they were taking over what, theoretically, was an NIU home game.
Cub fans in Miller Park, Cardinal Fans in Wrigley Field, Vikings fans in Soldier Field... it's all the same crap.
Part of the problem with the Chicagoans on the road may be that people other places tend to be a little nicer than we expect. People get thumped at Soldier Field for the same behavior that only gets angry stares in Milwaukee.
Not condoning the behavior nor the typical Chicago intervention, but that's what I've observed.
the really obnoxious visitors were the mets fans and the brewers fans, of all people. actually, the brewers guys were okay. they were catching a lot of sh!t, and were giving it back, but it was more in fun.
cards fans are not obnoxious - and we get as many of em for a game as we do cubs fans. i've had some great conversations with a lot of em. the 2 reds fans i saw were real nice. i met one pirates fan like 4 years back and he was real nice - talked a lot about the players from back in the 70s. dbax fans are not obnoxious. dodgers fans are not obnoxious. giants fans are not obnoxious (and yeah, most of em had barry jerseys). only a few mets/phils fans and they were not obnoxious (although one of the mets fans did say something to me about how surprised she was that after all this time the astros fans boo carlos the Jackal with the volume and hatred that we do. i told her that he is the only player who left the astros and went somewheres else who gets booed. and he know good and well why he gets louder boos than ANY visiting player including Uncle and barry lamar ever got)
so it is JUST the one particular group. no one else comes up to you and informs you that your team sucks in your own house.
i do gotta say that the beer vendors luuuvvv em BIG time though
- grinning
and that one particular group learn right quick that yelling even ONE swear word gets you tossed...
Yet another reason for me not to visit Texas.
How's the kool-aid?
I wouldn't describe Card fans as generally obnoxious (just numerous and vocal, mostly), though there've been a few exceptions. Don't recall any obnoxious Dodger or Reds fans. Mets, definitely. Yankees, definitely.
Really??
You mean fans of teams which were in a dogfight for the playoffs weren't complaining about the Cubs fielding a AAAA roster directly against them? I'm shocked. Shocked I tell you.
FWIW - somebody in the Mets/Marlins chatter made a comment about the Cubs lineup on that Saturday against the Brewers and how it 'didn't look good'.
When I made the comment how he wasn't complaining 4 days ago about the Cubs lineup, I got a rather nasty response. Also...shocking.
Meaning, dumbass, I didn't hear Brewer fans whining like a little candyass about what the Cubs were doing against the Mets, or vice versa, even though fans of those teams clearly had a vested interest in the Cubs beating the other. I suspect you're not really that stupid, but are being deliberately obtuse, though in fact it simply draws attention to your being a whiny little b1@tch.
Which, of course, is completely different from going to the extreme of arguing, as you did, that Piniella was undermining the integrity of the game by *using* that lineup, but don't let facts get in the way of your creating imaginary company (other than High Standards Boy) for your pissing and moaning like a 12 year old girl.
Hell, if you think that's bad, check the offense. In the Cubs last 7 post-season games (yeah, I realize that the 2003 crew was different, but still):
.202/.267/.294
Putting aside the fact that the argument is completely asinine, how is it even significant?
Put another way, seeing that the Phils won the division and they fielded the same lineups against both the Mets and the Brewers, what was the effect of all this?
Who got screwed?
Putting aside the fact that the argument is completely asinine, how is it even significant?
Put another way, seeing that the Phils won the division and they fielded the same lineups against both the Mets and the Brewers, what was the effect of all this?
Harris suffered severe vaginitis as a result of not seeing Carlos Marmol inserted into the game in a driving rain at Shea Stadium in a game that was meaningless to the Cubs, that's what.
Their teams were competing with one another on an even playing field against the AAAA Cubs.
The phils were facing a rejuvenated Nats team and a scrappy Braves team instead.
Have you ever noticed that the more profanity someone interjects into their debate, the less respect you have for their commentary?
That's equivalent to saying "sure I drove home with a BAC of .24, but I didn't hurt nobody, so what's the big deal?"
The fans who tuned into watch, or to watch live. I have no problem resting some regulars. I had issue to resting soto, derosa, soriano, lee, ramirez, wood and marmol on the same day iirc.
You are officially the dumbest human being alive.
Wow. That's some kinda spin. Never mind that a Cub lineup resting half its regulars is still better than the "rejuvenated Nats" entire roster. How your poor, put-upon Phillies made the playoffs given those daunting circumstances simply defies explanation. Too bad Steve McQueen's not available to play Charlie Manuel in the sure-to-be-forthcoming historical epic on the Phils' heroic show of fortitude.
Translation: I don't like the language you used, so I won't bother even pretending to respond to your actual points with anything resembling coherence.
Except for the fact that there was no potential anyone could get hurt. In that sense, it's more like saying "sure I walked home with a BAC of .24. So what?"
If it's guys bunting against a pitcher with a no-hitter or the Wisconsin Badgers taking advantage of silly NCAA rules in 2006 to attempt to run the clock out before halftime you are always going to have some group presenting themselves as the final moral authority on some minor event that in the end has no impact on the larger matters of the day.
Hence, the discussion and in turn any points made are irrelevant. And therefore a waste of energy.
And yes, I very politely termed the topic "stupid".
Matthew understands that type of language. He bandies about the words like "retarded" so stupid is right up his alley. Though I doubt he is still around. Having stirred up the beehive he has most likely moved on to foreclosing on an orphanage or having some elderly Alzheimers residents evicted from a nursing home.........
Your personalized apology from the Cubs franchise is in the mail.
Fred, Lou Piniella's lack of regard for what some nutsack Red Sox fan with a Napoleonic complex thinks of his lineup while watching the game on television is truly appalling. Fining Lou stiffly would not have been sufficient penalty for his crimes against humanity.
Furthermore, as High Standards Boy will surely point out, the Red Sox roster is so utterly awesome from top to bottom that their "B" team is still sufficiently daunting to terrify the most hardy of wildcard contenders, so your analogy is inapt.
I had issue to resting soto, derosa, soriano, lee, ramirez, wood and marmol on the same day iirc.
And I refuted your argument, giving the specific reason for each one being out. Neither you or Harris even commented on my post. Harris appears to prefer baiting the infantile responses from retro, and he's continuing to bait. Unfortunately, he keeps getting bites so he keeps throwing it out there.
I meant of other teams. And notice I said at Wrigley, if I was talking online, I'd have to add Phillie fans.
Well said. Then again much the same could be said about everything we talk about here.
Nope still here. Procrastinating on something.
I would never do that.
Now this sounds like fun, since I could do it over and over again and they wouldn't ever rememeber!
But how do they match up against the rejuvenated Nationals and the scrappy Braves?
and that one particular group learn right quick that yelling even ONE swear word gets you tossed...
Yet another reason for me not to visit Texas.
- grinning
honey youd melt in the 75 degree sweltering heat. also at the sight of endless numbers of beautiful hot hot HOT texas chicks scantily clad and showing body (and SKREEEEEMING out oh brad i LUUUUUVVVVVV you)
my favorite brad ausmus story - last year they were selling these calanders of astros players posing with their dogs with sales going to BARC (the dog shelter) and this older woman she pick up the calendar and looks at it and frowns and sez - this is a TERRIBLE picture of ausmus. and the grrrl selling the calendar sez - why, what's wrong with it - and the lady sez - he's wearing clothes
besides, i seriously disbelieve that you stand up and scream out swear words at opposing fans/players
NEVER?? Pretty bold commitment there. You are young, give it time. Or are you playing semantics since orphanages are possibly now known as "Youth Placement Centers"? Very slippery of you.
And your argument was reasonable. Reasonable doesn't mean I need to agree. I believe some combination of the players in question should have played that day, and some should have been rested the day before or after, to preserve the spirit on compitition.
I am not short.
You give me far to much credit, I'm never slippery. Mostlu because I'm not smart enough to rememeber lies.
Actually, I have a HUGE softspot for children in difficult domestic situations. It's a weekness. My grandmother, godbless her soul was a fostermother to I believe 186 childeren over 25 years.
I'm talking about post 160. You didn't post in the thread after I made that post. I'm asking you again, if you're going to charge Lou with not trying to win that game, prove me wrong.
give it up. matthew and harris aren't gonna discuss it honestly and you should know it by now. harris got all of dials bad qualities and none of his good and matthew is just plain, well, lets say harveys got his number.
lou did the right thing. and this is coming from a cubs hating astros fan. and i would still be saying this if it was MY team didn't get into the posteason instead of mets
I see no reasonable reason for Lee and Marmol not have played. Marmol pitched a total of 1.2 innings the 7 days prior to the game on the 25th with his last game being the 22nd. He went on to pitch the next two days so Lou wasn't all that concerned about over working him.
In a situation where you are giving Soriano and Ramirez days off due to the weather, Lee should never be rested. He just had an off day on the 21st and if Lee was so worn down, he needed another day Lou could have rested him on the Friday. They guy who played first name escaping me who had a huge day I alsobelieve plays left... so he still would have been in the lineup.
It makes sense to not play Soriano and Ramirez in the field. No reason not to use them as pinch hitters when the game is on the line. The odds of a player getting hurt in an atbat even in a hurrican are miniscule.
Basicly, my position is Lou saw the weather and deceided he didn't care about teh outcome of teh game. I don't think thats fair to the customers or to the fans of baseball, and then secondarly the "purity" of the race.
Anyway, most cubs fans position predictably is we want to win the W.S. so we dont care about any of that stuff. And my reponse is, the negative potential of playing lee and marmol and using ramirez and/or soriano as a PH isn't large enough for it to take hold above my concerns. YMMV.
Ah HA!! It all comes back to Hitler!!
So you deny Napolean hey? VEEERRRYYYYY CLEVER OF YOU. VERRRRRY CLEVER.
But alas, some of us are not so daft as to miss THIS!
Hoffpauir is naturally a 1Bman who they've been trying to force into the OF for obvious reasons. Whether they've done so successfully is pretty debateable.
Basicly, my position is Lou saw the weather and deceided he didn't care about teh outcome of teh game. I don't think thats fair to the customers or to the fans of baseball,
It's certainly fair to those fan/customers who are Cubs fans.
In any event, I find it a bit funny that you claim the moral high ground on, well, anything.
Rauseo -- still is, as a matter of fact.
I actually feel this is one place, where I don't translate well online. I don't feel like I claim the "moral high ground". I don't feel I'm more "moral" than anyone else, in fact likely I'm less. However, recognize when I myself don't do the "right thing", some times i'm hard on myself for it, sometimes I shrug it off. But I recognize it. I also recognize when these very public figures don't do the right thing, and this is a case where Lou didn't, at least in my opinion.
If having an opinion on what is right or wrong is taking "the moral high ground" then so be it.
I actually feel this is one place, where I don't translate well online. I don't feel like I claim the "moral high ground". I don't feel I'm more "moral" than anyone else, in fact likely I'm less. However, recognize when I myself don't do the "right thing", some times i'm hard on myself for it, sometimes I shrug it off. But I recognize it. I also recognize when these very public figures don't do the right thing, and this is a case where Lou didn't, at least in my opinion.
If having an opinion on what is right or wrong is taking "the moral high ground" then so be it.
I actually feel this is one place, where I don't translate well online. I don't feel like I claim the "moral high ground". I don't feel I'm more "moral" than anyone else, in fact likely I'm less. However, recognize when I myself don't do the "right thing", some times i'm hard on myself for it, sometimes I shrug it off. But I recognize it. I also recognize when these very public figures don't do the right thing, and this is a case where Lou didn't, at least in my opinion.
If having an opinion on what is right or wrong is taking "the moral high ground" then so be it.
Anyway, I'm at the point where I'm happy to agree to disagree. I had a long post typed out with specific counter points, but that's not really worth it and I think we both realize it (one I can't let go, DeRosa got hurt running the bases the night before and Soriano's first leg injury last year was running the bases, so Lou had the right to be scared of them getting hurt playing, or even just hitting, in those conditions). It's an issue that's bigger than Lou and the Cubs this season, it's been around as long as there's been division races where teams not in the race are playing teams still fighting for ground. In this case, I'm ok with the way things are, you're not. I don't get the outrage on a moral ground, for lack of a better term. He's doing what his job requires of him-do what he thinks best is for the Cubs. In a few games each year, that appears to conflict with what is best for other teams or maybe baseball as a whole (I'm not conceding that). If baseball's leaders think it's a problem, I'm sure it'll be addressed. But I think you're in the huge minority here. C'est la vie.
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