Tuesday's loss was a killer. There's no way this team could come back from a loss like that, as momentum is now entirely on Philadelphia's side. Oh, nevermind.

Also, the Yankees are dead. Good night.

I was watching the game from an undisclosed location, and that second Delgado HR was very cool.

I'm really looking forward to this race. We're going to take it.

I was watching the game from an undisclosed location

I know this site is rumored to be frequented by Ira Kaplan and Stuart Murdoch, but Dick Cheney?! Be still my heart!!

After watching the Mets’ bullpen collapse on Tuesday night

The Mets bullpen gave up 3 runs in 7 1/3 innings on Tuesday. Pedro collapsed in the 5th. The offense collapsed after the 4th inning. The bullpen did not collapse.

Extremely awesome win, especially after the media started that "they make us mad with their celebrations" ######## again, quoting J-Rol. Hey, Jimmy. Celebrate 2nd place you piece of ####.

Extremely awesome win, especially after the media started that "they make us mad with their celebrations" ######## again, quoting J-Rol. Hey, Jimmy. Celebrate 2nd place you piece of ####.

Calm down, Benji. It's not that big a deal. You're one of the elder statemen around here. If you're going to act like this, what's left for us young guys?

The 2008 Mets are a very resilient bunch. These tough losses are nothing new to them as they've had a ton of them already this season. I doubt there's any psychological effect anymore. If it was going to break them, it would have already.

You're right, Russlan. It's just some of those Phillies irritate me. Victorino and Rollins especially. And that "celebrations" meme looked like it was going to get Cohen and Keith on their soapbox again. But Darling bringing up how much the mid-80's Mets were hated put the wet blanket on that.

Gonna send Mushnick a lookalike. Werth and Manson Family associate Bobby Beausoleil.

More good news. Delgado's 2009 option isn't for 16 million, it's for 12 million. Considering the buyout is 4 million, the Mets are absolutely going to pick it up. It's not like there was any question about that anyway. The only question is whether they keep him or try to trade him. There's going to be plent of interest if they make Delgado considering he's on pace for 35 homers and 110 RBI.

From a business and baseball prospective, you gotta say sell high. Because he is an older slugger, and there are issues with "ok, is THIS the year?" And many many many people thought it was. At some point, those many will be correct.

But MAN that would/will still make me terribly bummed, personally. Love the guy.

I was watching the game from an undisclosed location, and that second Delgado HR was very cool.
I didn't hear, did Pedro complain about playing in a bandbox after that 2nd HR? :) He crushed that first one,that's for sure. I wish we knew what happened with him in the first month or so. He looked so toasty.

The bullpen did not collapse.

Well, they sort of did. 3 in 7 1/3 is okay work on the whole, but 5 of the 7 relievers used were ineffective. Pedro does deserve more of the blame, but 16 baserunners in 7 innings is a problem, and pretty close to a collapse.

From a business and baseball prospective, you gotta say sell high. Because he is an older slugger, and there are issues with "ok, is THIS the year?" And many many many people thought it was. At some point, those many will be correct.

Really? I don't think it's nearly as clear-cut as that. Picking up the option is a no-brainer but I don't think the Mets should necessarily "sell high". I like Teixeira a lot but is he really good enough to warrant an 8y/160m contract? Because he's going to get that if not more. I would not mind keeping Delgado for 2009. That gives them some time to see what they have in guys like Evans, Murphy, and Carp. Seriously, a platoon of Carp (.320/.425/.495 against righties in AA) and Evans (.366/.438/.699 against lefties) might be a viable option in 2010 if not sooner.

Teixeira is a great player and I would love to see him on the Mets but Delgado's resurgence means that they don't have to empty the vault for him.

More importantly, Teixeira is a weird looking guy while Carlos Delgado is cool. That's a good enough reason to keep Delgado.

Well, everything you say is good, Russlan, but isn't the whole purpose of selling high to use a great year to get young players?

I have NO PROBLEM with keeping Delgado next year, and honestly, I think Tex is quite over-rated. Nothing's ever clear-cut, but this isn't a test case for selling high, what is? I may be scoring a D in baseball economics? Anyone?

Again - I'd love to keep Delgado, and I guess I'm also fine - while sighing sadly - with a good trade is what I mean.

Well, they sort of did. 3 in 7 1/3 is okay work on the whole, but 5 of the 7 relievers used were ineffective. Pedro does deserve more of the blame, but 16 baserunners in 7 innings is a problem, and pretty close to a collapse.

Well, 4 of 7 were arguably ineffective, but 2 of those 4 only pitched 1/3 inning each. Stokes, Heilman, and Smith were all fine. And the pen allowed 14 runners in 7 1/3, not 16 in 7. 2 of those were intentional walks- so, 12 unintentional baserunners. Not great, but hardly a collapse.

I have NO PROBLEM with keeping Delgado next year, and honestly, I think Tex is quite over-rated.

I don't think Teixeira is particularly overrated. His OPS+ the last two years is 150. He plays very good to excellent defense. The guy is a legitimate star. There's no reason why the Mets shouldn't be interested in acquiring him.

Again - I'd love to keep Delgado, and I guess I'm also fine - while sighing sadly - with a good trade is what I mean.

I guess I agree with this as well.

I think they have to keep Delgado unless you're going into next year with Murphy or Murphy/Evans at 1B. Delgado's a one year commitment and a much better contract than signing Tex or Dunn or Burrell to a 6-year deal. Carlos does have middling numbers against lefties and should probably be platooned, but finding the other half shouldn't be hard; Val Pascucci is in New Orleans right now and could do it.

I thought the Marlins will foot the bill for the Delgardo buyout? So the option will still cost the Mets 16million. Maybe the Mets and Delgardo can work something out to screw the Marlins, like buyout followed by 13 mil one year contract.

Better still say goodbye though. We've already seen what "fell off a cliff" looked like for Delgardo.

Is there any reason your spelling his name like that, Orinoco?

Delgado's has been sweet against lefties the last two months. He is hitting .319/.342/.556 against them in 75 PA. When Delgado's right, he doesn't really need to be platooned. That said, the Mets have plenty of options already for a platoon partner. They have Evans and could probably re-sign Tatis as well.

I thought the Marlins will foot the bill for the Delgardo buyout? So the option will still cost the Mets 16million. Maybe the Mets and Delgardo can work something out to screw the Marlins, like buyout followed by 13 mil one year contract.

According to Cot's, the Marlins are paying 4 millio of Delgado's 2008 salary, no matter what the Mets decide to do with the option. That money has no effect on the Mets decision.

They have Evans and could probably re-sign Tatis as well.
I wonder what kind of contract Tatis will get in the off-season, assuming that in the last month he doesn't revert back to the 2001-2003 incarnation of Fernando Tatis. He might be a good gamble for the Mets, since Evans is a fall-back. If Tatis turns out to be this year's Endy Chavez (reverts back after his WTF year), the Mets can cut the cord and go to Evans. If he's for real, then they can work him into the lineup with his modest versatility. Can he really play 3B any more, not that that is much of a concern for the Mets?

I was thinking about the same thing, Edmundo. In some ways, Tatis hitting is not that surprising. He hit in the minors in 2006-2007, has obviously hit well in the big leagues in 2008, and looked like a future star in 1999-2000. How many guys just disappear during what should be prime?

Tatis has adapted quite well to the outfield considering he only played 5 games there in his entire career before being called up. He's not good but he generally does not embarass himself. It's hard to say if he can still play third because I haven't seen him play much there but that's where he was playing in the minors.

He could probably start somewhere but I think he's better served as a bench player who gets 300 AB or so.

After watching the Mets’ bullpen collapse on Tuesday night ...

Also, the Philly bullpen being handed a 3-2 lead and a runner on with none out in the 6th, not getting any more runs from their offense, and actually surrendering runs to the second highest scoring team in the league in the final 4 innings doesn't exactly qualify as "a collapse" or "blowing it" in my book. It qualifies as "not being infallible." Even moreso given they were without Madson and Romero. (Though why is Romero resting last night? He can't face Delgado and Beltran one time through? You can give him the whole damn Cubs series off, unless you're going in thinking you can't let Edmonds or Fukudome beat you, and even then Eyre has done well enough so far to merit those mighty assignments.)

More good news. Delgado's 2009 option isn't for 16 million, it's for 12 million. Considering the buyout is 4 million, the Mets are absolutely going to pick it up. It's not like there was any question about that anyway. The only question is whether they keep him or try to trade him. There's going to be plent of interest if they make Delgado considering he's on pace for 35 homers and 110 RBI.

I believe the MVP award would elevate his 2009 salary in the option, however.

I know this site is rumored to be frequented by Ira Kaplan and Stuart Murdoch, but Dick Cheney?! Be still my heart!!

Stuart Murdoch a Primate would be the greatest thing ever.

I honestly don't think the Delgado decision comes down to a choice of whether to "sell high" in the abstract. It comes down to whether they really believe they have the long-term replacement available in-house, and whether that player will be ready in 2010. If he is, then it is a no-brainer to keep Delgado around for next year at a bargain price. He'll be playing for his next contract, and thus have maximum incentive to have the best year he can, and he has certainly showed this year that 95% of us were wrong about what he is still capable of.

The ONLY reason you would not want that year at the price is because you are worried about the subsequent years and want to bring in his replacement now. Which makes sense, if (a) you see the replacement you want out there in the marketplace, and (b) your own assessment of the in-house options is that none of them are good enough, or that none of them will be good enough soon enough. Goodness knows the Mets went through a series of debacles in the post-Olerud years, trying to fill the position that should be the easiest in the game to fill for a competent organization.

I wouldn't do it just to take the time to see what they have in Evans, Murphy, and Carp. But I'd do it if my assessments right now told me that among them the first baseman of the future is present and accounted for. Here's where things get dicey. My hope, really, is that Murphy can be groomed to be the second baseman of the future, and that would make it tough for him to be Delgado's successor, too. That leaves Evans and Carp. Evans I see as a platoon player -- a solid one, effective in the role, but handling the lesser part of the job because he hits righty. I don't think he'll hit RHPs well enough for his bat to play at 1B. Maybe Carp could be the other half of that platoon. . . but I'm dubious.

I agree with most of Sam's post. Here is my list of preferred options:

1. Sign Teixeira. He's a star player who fits in nicely age-wise and defensively with the other peak performers on this current roster.

2. Sign Dunn. All as above, sans defense.

3. Keep Delgado. Figure Carp/Evans platoon is your 2010 plan, unless you can find an upgrade in the meantime. I still dream that San Diego will trade the best player in the NL nobody talks about, Adrian Gonzalez. But that is very unlikely.

What is the deadline on exercising the option? Will the Mets know if they can sign Teixeira before they have to move on Delgado? I agree with Howard's post, but I will miss Delgado if he goes. His impressive skills as a hitter aside, there is just something I like about him personally. He seems like a genuinely thoughtful guy.

It's interesting that Howard says he agrees with most of my post, and then puts keeping Delgado # 3 on his list of options . . . since it's actually what I would do! Here's my line of thinking, expanding on my # 24:

I think that it is actually fairly likely that the value Delgado would provide for the money in 2009 far outstrips what we would get from either Teixeira or Dunn. So we're ahead of the game in Year 1 with that option.

After that, you might resign Delgado if he still looks like he's going strong, presumably to a relatively short-term deal (one year with vesting option, perhaps?), given his age. That would almost certainly be a more affordable option than the next two years of a Teixeira deal, with not as much production likely. But on a wins/dollar basis, probably a wash. If the dollars saved are spent wisely elsewhere, the Mets might still come out ahead in those years. In the out years after that, of course, it would then be totally unpredictable whether the Mets would be better off -- it would depend on who the heck they could get to replace Delgado in, say, 2011 or 2012.

Or, if you let Delgado go (or he just leaves) after 2009, you go with a Kiddie Platoon of Carp and Evans. There is a high risk of failure there, but also some chance of success and certainly it frees up money to be used on something else -- a replacement starting pitcher, or to fix the bullpen, or a corner outfielder. Either way, there's little doubt we'd be using up some or all of the gains we realized in 2009, and we'd be unlikely to be ahead of the game.

Or, you sign someone else for 2009. That is the third option, and an important one to consider. It's not like we HAVE to either sign Teixeira this off-season, or commit ourselves to an internal replacement for Delgado when he departs. There should be other options, perhaps better ones (for the money, anyway) next off-season.

Since there are other options, I say stick with Delgado. If we do, we gain this benefit as well: we'd still have our 2009 first-round draft pick. Sign either Teixeira or Dunn, and you can kiss that good-bye. I think the restocking of the farm system has to be a very high priority, and it is far from complete despite the gains we've seen this year.

If we do, we gain this benefit as well: we'd still have our 2009 first-round draft pick. Sign either Teixeira or Dunn, and you can kiss that good-bye.

I think the Mets pretty much have to sign one of Tex, Dunn and Sheets, since CC is a lock for the Yankees. They represent premium talent at positions of need in an offseason when they have some money gone and plenty more coming in. I would not regret the pick too much if they get one of the four. Omar might think about Manny as well, but I'm a little worried about his age and decline.

Is there any reason your spelling his name like that, Orinoco?

There might be something to the rumor that I am illiterate.

Edit. If they sign Ollie, then there might not be so much extra money left after all. Looking at Citi's dimentions, they really can't stock enough lefties.

Since there are other options, I say stick with Delgado. If we do, we gain this benefit as well: we'd still have our 2009 first-round draft pick. Sign either Teixeira or Dunn, and you can kiss that good-bye. I think the restocking of the farm system has to be a very high priority, and it is far from complete despite the gains we've seen this year.

I don't disagree with this point. But I'm thrilled that Delgado is playing so well- and I think Teixeira is a huge upgrade in 2009 anyway. His defense should not be discounted, either.

Orinoco raised the issue of Ollie. Any thoughts on what the Mets will do with regard to him? He has always had great stuff. He now seems to have gotten the mental aspects of pitching, as well. I'm not just basing that on his results over the last 2 months. You can see a big difference in how he responds to adversity. In the past, he'd give up a couple of hits or someone would make an error behind him and he woulf get flustered, start walking guys, and then leave a pitch out over the plate. He just does not get flustered like that anymore. I was at the game he pitched against the Yanks in late June at Shea, and he was more poised than I have ever seen him. He pitched a dominant game. But there was one point where Reyes made an error, and it seemed like mexactly the spot where old Ollie would melt down. He didn't, and has not had a melt down since then. He's still pretty young and, I think, could be an excellent top of the rotation starter for a number of years. Assuming that Pedro is gone, that frees up $11 million. I hope that money is earmarked for Ollie.

11 per is not remotely enough for Ollie. I think he's going to get the Silva contract plus a year and a good chunk more per year to add to the total in the 75 million neighborhood.

But you never know about Boras. I would not be shocked if he can bamboozle 100 mil out of some club. I would be surprised if the Mets don't keep him, but not shocked if they fail.

I'd rather they not pay Teixeira $20 mil a year.

I'd like them to keep Delgado for '09. Then sign Dunn, keep him in left for '09, then move him to first in 2010.

31. I wasn't suggesting that 11 mil would do it. Just pointing out that the cash is opening up and I hope that it is earmarked for an Ollie deal.

I'm not sure I want the Mets to give Dunn 100 million either. He's a bad to mediocre defensive player at best and he's never going to be much more than a 130 OPS+ hitter because of all the strikeouts. Also, his numbers against lefties are pretty bad this year and may only get worse as he gets older.

I think Tex ages better than Dunn. Dunn's going to be cheaper but he's still going to get a huge contract.

The Mets bullpen gave up 3 runs in 7 1/3 innings on Tuesday. Pedro collapsed in the 5th. The offense collapsed after the 4th inning. The bullpen did not collapse.

Except the bullpen would have only had to pitch 4 innings if they hadn't collapsed, giving up 2 in those innings. The extra innings only exist because they collapsed. The bullpen also has the HUGE advantage of only having to pitch a single inning each (during 9 innings), and don't have to go through the lineup more than once.

Pedro left the game with the lead intact.

My hope, really, is that Murphy can be groomed to be the second baseman of the future, and that would make it tough for him to be Delgado's successor, too. That leaves Evans and Carp. Evans I see as a platoon player -- a solid one, effective in the role, but handling the lesser part of the job because he hits righty. I don't think he'll hit RHPs well enough for his bat to play at 1B. Maybe Carp could be the other half of that platoon. . . but I'm dubious.

I'm dubious with regard to platooning at a premium offensive position, period. Offhand I'm trying to think of a successful, multiyear platoon at 1b. The 80s O's?

After that, you might resign Delgado if he still looks like he's going strong, presumably to a relatively short-term deal (one year with vesting option, perhaps?), given his age.

After the 2009 season Delgado'll be 37, going into his age 38 season. If he puts up a .350/.500 line in both 2008 and 2009, I'd be amazed if he didn't get at least two years, plus a vesting option.

Do you guys think Delgado is going to be a HOFer? 2 more years like 2008 and a gradual decline and he might end up with 550 homers and 1800 RBI. He doesn't have a lot of other things on his resume as he was overshadowed for much of his (only 2 All-Star games, finished in the top-5 in MVP voting only twice) but those are some impressive counting stats.

Pedro left the game with the lead intact.

Yes, he had 2 of the 7 run lead left when he departed. Sorry, but I really don't see how Pedro's 5 runs in 5 innings is better that the pen's 2 runs in 4 (let alone 3 in 7 1/3). Yes, Ayala blew the save (though he has been very good since becoming a Met). But to single out the bullpen when Pedro fell apart in the 5th and the offense failed to score after the 4th is a bit silly, no?

Except the bullpen would have only had to pitch 4 innings if they hadn't collapsed, giving up 2 in those innings.

Yes, they also would have had to pitch only 4 innings if Pedro had only given back 4, instead of 5, runs of the 7 run lead he was given.

I'm dubious with regard to platooning at a premium offensive position, period. Offhand I'm trying to think of a successful, multiyear platoon at 1b. The 80s O's?

I'm a lot less dubious doing that than platooning at a premium defensive position. It's not like you lose a lot defensively by platooning your first basemen, right? So if you've got two players who can each handle the offensive responsibilities that come with the position when they have the platoon advantage -- but only when they have the platoon advantage -- what's wrong with doing that?

Ah, because it hasn't been done. Challenging the CW is yet another good reason to do it, not to shy away from it.

And it doesn't have to be a multiyear thing. Maybe Evans, maybe Carp proves himself capable of handling the whole job. Two nice things about a Kiddie Corps platoon are that you have players with potential to grow and improve, and that you have players with all the incentive in the world to try to wrest the full job from the other. Competition for jobs is a good thing, and I'm hard-pressed to think of a situation in which there would be more honest, fair competition for a job with more at stake than would be involved in that circumstance. The message to both of 'em (and maybe Murphy too, who knows?) would be, "Go out and earn it . . . and meanwhile, help the team win."

Or maybe they both suck, and you move on, and it's not a multiyear thing for that reason. It's a gamble; I admit that.

Dunn's going to be cheaper but he's still going to get a huge contract.

I'm going on my own theory that Dunn's not getting a huge contract. Though I guess that depends on what you mean by huge.

He's expecting 100 million and I don't blame him. Carlos Lee got that.

Gary Cohen says Carlos Lee is a superstar. The Mets are short on albatross contracts. Adam Dunn will be a Met.

I'm a lot less dubious doing that than platooning at a premium defensive position. It's not like you lose a lot defensively by platooning your first basemen, right? So if you've got two players who can each handle the offensive responsibilities that come with the position when they have the platoon advantage -- but only when they have the platoon advantage -- what's wrong with doing that?

Ah, because it hasn't been done. Challenging the CW is yet another good reason to do it, not to shy away from it.

My point about the rarity of it wasn't that, eek!, it hasn't been tried much and so we shouldn't try it, but rather that, for reasons of which I'm unaware, it doesn't seem to be workable. Whether that's because it's hard to find two guys, both of whom can play first, who are affordable, who can both hit, but who can only hit pitches from one side of the rubber, or because the front office figures you might as well make your platoon guy who can hit righties your regular guy, or because of a third reason that outweighs the value of the attempt, or a fourth reason such as the 17 times it's been tried with good reason and the right players it has only worked twice, and what we can learn from that, I honestly don't know. But I am interested in the structural (as opposed to CW) reasons why we don't see it more often. Platooning isn't a frightening concept for any front office, so you (and I) would think it wouldn't be rare, but it is. Why? And how should that affect the Mets decision-making for 2009?

I'm a lot less dubious doing that than platooning at a premium defensive position.

Just so. There's a defensive cost to platooning your SS and/or 2b, and strict platooning at catcher has some drawbacks.

He's expecting 100 million and I don't blame him. Carlos Lee got that.

Oh well, I didn't say my theory was based on anything resembling facts.

The Mets are short on albatross contracts. Adam Dunn will be a Met.

And that, my friends, is how a Mets' chatter nickname is born.

Meet . . . The Albatross™.

Do you guys think Delgado is going to be a HOFer? 2 more years like 2008 and a gradual decline and he might end up with 550 homers and 1800 RBI. He doesn't have a lot of other things on his resume as he was overshadowed for much of his (only 2 All-Star games, finished in the top-5 in MVP voting only twice) but those are some impressive counting stats.

550/1800 is hellaciously impressive, and if he gets there I don't doubt he goes in.

But.

I'm trying to imagine a more likely, steep but not vicious, decline, something like 25/80 in 2009, then 17/60 in 2010, with some dregs in 2011 and career totals around 520/1650. Is that enough, given the lack of black ink?


You know what blew my mind on BBRef while I was looking at some of this? Garrett Anderson is 104th in RBIs. Career. In the whole of Major League history. Garret Anderson. Wow.

edit: Gary Sheffield's at 493 HR. If he doesn't get to 500, does he go in?

I am not sure Sheffield gets in if he hits 500. 500 HR isn't what it used to be with so many new members to that club. If he and Delgado end up with the same counting stats, Sheffield will be the better candidate as he has more things on his resume but I don't think either gets in with 520 and 1650.

I am not sure Sheffield gets in if he hits 500. 500 HR isn't what it used to be with so many new members to that club. If he and Delgado end up with the same counting stats, Sheffield will be the better candidate as he has more things on his resume but I don't think either gets in with 520 and 1650.

You may well be right, but I just checked again, and Sheff is 45th in ML history in PAs, 47th in runs scored, 28th in RBIs. That's extremely impressive, and even with the recent spike in membership the 500 HR club is still as exclusive as the 300 win club.