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Wait, what?
go Selig.
Not everyone has the capacity to nurse a lingering animosity over the years....
Not mine. I'll put the Brewers on my delectatio morosa list and go to confession regularly.
Hurry up and die.
Sincerely yours,
Winnipegwhip
Spewing raw emotion towards Selig is simply the politically correct thought of the times. I can totally understand a disagreement with Selig, but the level of negative emotion towards Selig simply does not make sense or add up. Like many other politically correct thoughts, there is often a contest to see who can bathe themselves the most in the "correct" idea, seeking some sort of purity.
I am witnessing irrational hatred more than anything.
Wow! While I was writing my entry, "winnipegwhip" posted this. I rest my case. Irrational hatred. Get a grip pal.
Not really. My friend in Ontario and I have talked about making a trip and meeting in Milwaukee and celebrate his passing while wearing our Expos regalia. Our hatred towards him is not unlike Brooklyn fans had towards O'Malley.
For you are the very people that photo opp was invented. In fact, you are probably the very people that snicker at photo opps, yet it turns out you are the same people that place the greatest significance on image or symbolism--without even realizing it.
So Montreal couldn't support the Expos a lick and somehow you think your hatred is justified? Get a grip.
There is probably less then a handful of people that one can make a case that they should die in less then 6 sentences.
There is little reason to cheer Bud.
Winnipeg and I have between us no doubt expressed this on more than one occasion. The fact is, the Bewigged Satan screwed Montréal baseball fans because he could, because he wouldn't get any grief from members of Congress, because it's a foreign country. So the man's a bully. If you think bullies are cool, well, good for you.
Personally, I don't like bullies. I have an irrational hatred of them.
Don't allow the musical chairs BS that allowed MLB to take over the team in the first place (Loria stripping the team bare before going to Fla. and John Henry getting the Bosox despite not having the highest bid to the Yawkey Foundation).
Extort a stadium out of DC taxpayers (it worked in his home state) to fund his nefarious plans.
Extort a stadium out of DC taxpayers (it worked in his home state) to fund his nefarious plans.
NEFARIOUS? Are you ####### kidding me? Robert Mugabe is nefarious. Bud Selig is a businessman, and looking for the best way to grow his business and take care of his own. He might be a jerkwad, but ####### NEFARIOUS? Please, get the fudge over yourself.
Edit: Given my conciseness above, here's a longer entry: "Phony contraction scheme."
He at the behest of the owners or as the head of his cabal has lied repeatedly to the American public. What's more he has lied to a group of people that devoted their, um, devotion to the activity he is supposed to be looking over.
I would say not understanding why people don't like him doesn't add up.
there's a difference between dislike and outright foaming at the mouth, the latter of which we see often at BTF on any Selig thread.
As I said, I can understand disagreements with Selig, and you made a case for that.
But you failed miserably to make a case to hate the man. Lots of people think baseball is better for the Wild Card, Interleague play, no more baseball in Montreal and Loria has brought 2 world titles to south Florida, I bet there are many people pleased about that. Y
ou have not done a very good job arguing your case that I should hate Selig too.
I don't think there's near unanimous hatred, except maybe here, and even that's debatable. He is not liked here, and part of that is down to his conduct toward Fay Vincent. The rest probably down to what Nieporent has listed, to which one could add - repeated stadium scams, lying to Congress over the health of MLB finances, not using revenue sharing money properly, conflicts of interest over the Brewers, handling the steroid issue very badly from the start, etc., etc., etc.
Really, Doug Pappas is missed, if people can't see why some of us don't like the Commissioner. Go read some of Pappas' stuff. He's not always right, but he really captured the mood when this site started: fans are getting stiffed by MLB owners, led by the commissioner..
You are missing my point. There is hate. The reasons cited should not add up to hate. As I said, I understand dislike and disagreements. Hate? Cheering Selig's death? This is absurdly irrational.
There is a difference between 10 and 100.
You too are missing my point. 10 and 100 are not the same. Tell me you know there is a difference between "don't like" and "cheering someone's death"? If you think they are one of the same, get real.
Disagreement is much, much different from loathing and foaming and cheering Selig's death.
Selig comes across to me as something of a crook - collusion, Expos/Marlins/Red Sox, strike, etc. But I do like the wildcard, interleague play, divisional realignment, trying to make the ASG more meaningful, and the WBC. I certainly don't wish death on him... but I wouldn't buy a used car off him.
But why shouldn't Brewers fans cheer him? He's the guy who brought baseball back to their city.
You are reading far too much into a comment on an Internet bulletin board. If winnipegwhip had taken an ad out on the Team990, well, that might indicate absurd irrationality.
How absurd was it that Art Modell was allowed to move the Browns? That would be like the Red Sox moving out of Boston. So MLB left Montreal? the NFL left LA, TWICE!!!
I think most of you are being played by the media, which takes shots at baseball every chance they can get and worships football at every turn.
I want to be clear, I do think MLB and Selig have made many, many mistakes. Selig has been in charge for over 15 years, so there are sure to be misses. But overall, MLB has done well under Selig and the hatred of him is irrational. You are allowing yourself to be played by someone else to hold hatred on this.
And there is also a difference between foaming at the mouth in the real world and foaming at the mouth on the internet. Our tubes tend to exaggerate people's opinions and feelings.
Or that he tried to murder my favorite team (granted, our own owner was willing to help him pull the plug).
good point. though we're talking about people who would have booed him at the Brewers game.
Strictly from a "health of the game" standpoint, the game is as healthy as it ever was, and I personally feel that it's as popular as it ever has been in the era of multiple major sports franchises. "Budshevism" in the form of revenue sharing has allowed small teams to add payroll and compete for playoff spots, which are more plentiful than they had been- and while it may hurt a purist to hear it the additional teams involved in playoff chases due to the wildcard has created a ton of additional interest in the sport where there otherwise couldn't have been. Further, while there are craptacular owners (Pirates, Marlins) there will ALWAYS be craptacular owners, and that's not specifically Selig's fault.
He's made some misteps, big ones. The contraction plan that was floated was idiotic. The labor strike severely hurt baseball for several years. But in general he's learned from his mistakes (see 2002 Labor CBA) and he's done a good job managing his sport over the past decade, and especially over the past few years.
I'm not. You are reading far too much into my specifically calling this out. However, I do think people have convinced themselves that it is an act of god baseball is still thriving despite Selig.
The reality is, the 30 owners of MLB franchises is a group of people unlike any in the world. They are arguably as powerful as the US Senate and each of them has his/her own agenda. I don't think the natural inclination of a group as powerful as this, is to work together, but to look out for himself. Look at the history of this group of men, this sport, the players, the union, the media, the fans.... Selig has done as good a job as any MLB commish, in getting baseball, the owners, broadcast rights, the players, the fans, the cities, states, governments, umpires.....to work together.
It is one sloppy mess, it is one part machine politics, one part socialism, one part man-eat-man capitalism and two parts used car salesman. MLB baseball has improved from where it was when Selig took over, despite all of the BS. I don't think this is the kind of job just anyone could do, there is real fear that baseball won't be able to find a suitable commissioner after Selig. I'm here to suggest be careful what you wish for. This job ain't that easy.
EDIT: **These people just don't trust each other. Ironically, Selig might be the first commish to earn a measure of trust from all of these parties. Hard to believe, I know.
I think it was more Pohlad wanted the plug pulled, and since Pohlad had lent Selig money before, Selig was more than willing to oblige.
With new ownership, a playoff berth, and time having passed, the memory of the ugly last few years of Selig family ownership has dimmed some, and (as mentioned above) Selig reverts back to being the guy who fought for years to bring back baseball to Milwaukee after the Braves debacle, and a comissioner of baseball, from Milwaukee, who keeps his offices in Milwaukee.
Which part? I cited both Tagliabue and Goodell, the current commissioner. AND, I cited Al Davis moving the Raiders out of Oakland and to LA and again, from LA to Oakland, both of which occurred under Tagliabue.
Only under the approval of Bud Selig do these people get into the club. I will revise my viewpoint when an outsider(like Mark Cuban) is allowed into that group. Bud only will allow people in who toe the owner's line. Peter Angelos would probably not be allowed in if Bud was in charge when Peter took over and I am sure some REds experts could confirm that Marge Schotts comments were the perfect opportunity to get HER out of the club which was desired by Bud, Jerry and many others.
Still doesn't excuse letting him try to kill them off.
Pete Rozelle was in charge when the moves started.
I take the view that baseball suffered a massive setback in 1994, did not recover from it until into the 21st century, and would probably be further ahead than it is now if the Bewigged Satan hadn't taken the action he did in 1994 and hadn't played 'let's see who blinks first' in the 2002 CBA negotiations.
So, I wouldn't phrase it the way you do, but I would say that baseball is thriving despite the commissioner.
Maybe not. I think it is clear, people simply love baseball more than football, despite all of the bloviating and massive tv ratings.
Ask a football board, this here is a baseball forum and many of the posters like to bash football here so I don't see a contradiction. I see apathy or ignorance, but not hypocrisy
You may be correct on that matter, but part of the reason it isn't I suppose is partly the media, the fact that baseball has more of a tradition than pro football, and the fact that baseball has closer direct ties to its fans. What I mean by that is more people will deal with baseball by going to games and on a day to day basis. Many football fans will never go to a game and only follow their team through television plus football is a once a week, 16 times per year ordeal.
-just kidding. But Cary did say that, just now.
It was well parodied by Eliot Price's impersonation of Skip..."Ah we have to go to Montreal again."
I remember sitting in County Stadium and listening to two old fans talk about going with the Brewers to Montreal.
"How was it?" one asked.
"The women!" was how the other guy replied.
'Nuff ced.
Many "outsiders" have been approved as owners of MLB teams. Attanasio was not linked to MLB baseball before his purchase of the Brewers and Selig's family sold him that club. It would seem that if Selig were really as inside baseball as you make it seem, another player would have bought the Brewers, not Mark Attanasio. Turns out Mark Attanasio has earned a ton of respect among the other owners for his knowledge of finance and his ability to influence this group on business decisions. I think he maybe the finance committee chair, among ownership.
Beyond that, I really don't think you mean what you wrote here. An "outsider" can be many things. An "outsider" can be a person that hurts baseball. I think there is an assumption behind the term "outsider" that you probably should explain further so I can better understand what you think an "outsider" would bring to MLB that Selig won't like?
Cuban (who I think would be an excellent MLB owner for the Cubs), who may very well win the Cubs, once suggested NBA playoff games were fixed? How on earth would that help baseball? When was the last time the NBA was relevant? Also, Marge Schott, are you actually complaining that Selig ousted her and used her comments as some "excuse" to get her out of the game? So what. She was a in over her head and she probably should have been forced to sell. MLB asks for public trust (really) and her comments were despicable......is this the "outsider" you desire? I think you really just want anarchy to "show up" Selig.
I think Selig's greatest accomplishment might be the fact he has set a standard, an expectation for being a MLB owner. I bet most of these standards are things we would agree with and MLB is better off for them too.
That actually is funny as hell. You can go either way with this one.
It is like I am debating "Selig is/is not Satan" with BTF and I'm losing. And my position is that Selig is only "like Satan". I think it is pretty damning for Selig that his supporters are only arguing for his beating, and against his eternal damnation.
But MLB is not the only league to pull out of Canada, the NBA pulled out of Vancouver too. I'm not 100% sure the reasons for that one...It does seem Toronto is on the verge of picking off the Buffalo Bills of the NFL....they will relocate very soon (within 2-3 seasons), is my understanding.
Wow, usually we call this a well run business.
Seriously, when you take on new partners, in any business, you should share the same vision for the future of the business as well as share many of the same principles for operating your business. If you don't share these views, you should not add that partner, or co-owner. This is not to say MLB shuns creativity, as I pointed out with Attanasio's financial contributions. I might as well add the fact owners voted to add MLB.com as a new business venture. Brilliant.
I think it is true that MLB wants people that won't rock the boat. So what? The tone the media uses when they report this fact is a tone of "scandal" or "alarm". I think most people are reacting to this tone and not really thinking about what it really means, if anything. Think it through, adding partners that "don't rock the boat" or better stated (share similar MLB business objectives) is smart for a business. 99% of the time, what is good for the fans, is good for their business. These are largely brilliant business people.
Wow, usually we call this a well run business.
Or groupthink or a recipe to create a stale dying business.
When one looks back at the history of baseball it is the "mavericks" that have moved the game forward. It is the establishment that has fought change every step of the way. I'm not sure why having Selig and Reinsdorf surrounding themselves with toadies is good for the business.
Also resentment towards Bud is because he is the first commisioner who acts for what is best for ownership primarily. Uerberoth may have been similar but he did what he wanted and didn't take orders from the owners all the time. Kuhn involved himself to end work stoppages (which pissed the owners off).
While Pete Rozelle wasn't perfect he did preside over a league during a period of growth which is unprecedented in pro sports history. It was his vision that made the NFL what it is today. He suceeeded where Bud failed in making the large market teams equal with the small markets on a competitive basis and everyone got richer together.
Didn't you mean to post this on an NBA or NHL message board?
I cited MLB.com in the very post you quoted me from. Did you read the whole thing? Funny, as Selig is critisized on this board for being innovative, Wild Card, Interleague Play and now you are critisizing those who strive to create a stale, dying business. Implying that MLB and Selig have done this.
Well, while I agree with your premise that being unable or unwilling to innovate can lead to a stale, dying business, fortunately this is not the case with MLB. MLB has shown a strong willingness and ability to innovate, to change to grow and add new products and try a new approach. The conventional wisdom is that MLB never changes, or is at best too slow to change and is going to die because of it....well, if you think it through and consider the evidence, you will find this is not the case at all. As I cited, MLB.com is one of the most profitable internet business technologies in the entire industry. MLB owns the most advanced technology for live streaming video. It is a tech company that some say has a market value of $5 billion.
Everyone keeps repeating the stereotypes about MLB without citing any facts. I think when you ask a few questions, you find most of the opinions on MLB are built on dated stereotypes the media keeps repeating.
These aren't dated stereotypes. The nature of the argument has changed. Back in the 1990s, which is an era seemingly too far away from you now for you to think significant, teams were agitating for new ballparks paid for out of taxpayers' wallets. Otherwise, the team would move. Well, anyone who wanted a stadium has gotten one, except for Jeffrey Loria. Only one received a significant investment from the occupying club, the San Francisco park. The only community that refused to subsidize a new stadium to the level the commissioner wanted lost its team. Funnily enough, it was the only one without a representative in the US congress, too.
So that's all over with for now. And we've got labour peace (although we came close in 2002 to a strike), lots of revenue from MLBAM, and nothing really controversial being sought by the Commissioner or the owners. So, hey, the Bewigged Satan is looking pretty good, right now. Wow, what a surprise!
Sorry, BeanoCook, but I don't think your debating points take into sufficient account how we got here. The end doesn't justify the means.
There are very real problems that Selig and his cohorts either ignored or mishandled. Selig's history in the labor department was/is not good. The Selig/Reinsdorf's game plan of the 90's did nothing but hurt baseball. Selig's head in the sand on drugs gave baseball a huge black eye. Selig's handling of Montreal baseball was another black eye on baseball.
The claim isn't that he and his fellow owners haven't done anything good it is that he simply isn't a very good leader and surrounding himself with like minded individuals can and will lead to problems down the road.
Are you from the future?
8 NFL franchises have left their city in the dust in the past 27 years. EIGHT. If everything was so fair, then why do teams keep relocating? ANSWER: Economic disparities and owners chasing more local revenues.
Relocation in the NFL is a serious stain on that league. No team in the #2 market in the US, major failure of leadership which means the NFL leaves money on the table each and every year.
5 work stoppages under B Kuhn. B Kuhn also failed to appear for Hank Aaron's 715th HR, (Selig was ripped for not following Bonds around for each game) Kuhn also tried to prevent the players from getting free agency (so much for not being a shill for the owners) Kuhn also put the (*) on Maris. You can't be serious trying to compliment Kuhn?
I really am fascinated with this subject of Selig hating. It is one of those issues where people hold really, really strong views and even hatred, yet when you start to probe and ask questions, you realize they don't really have solid reasons for holding such strong views. Sure they have reasons, but their reasons don't ever add up to the intensity of their feelings. It usually amounts to parroting what has been repeated ad nausea.
That is what I figured. So Montreal took a stand and got its way. So did Seattle. I don't see how people think they can have their cake and eat it too.
How many MLB teams moved in the 90's? ZERO. How many moved at all? 1. How many NFL teams moved to get into new stadiums or better stadium deals in the past 27 years? 8. EIGHT!!!
How is this not a success for Selig? Keeping the number of teams leaving to just 1? The NFL's ability to get publicly funded stadiums is linked very closely with MLB's ability to do the same. Where is the outrage on Taglibue? Even if there is none, then where is the simple understanding that this STADIUM SHAKEDOWNS were not something only Bud Selig was doing, MLB does compete with the NFL to an extent.
I see bullying and corruption and I don't have solid reasons for regarding the perpetrator with complete distaste and loathing? What kind of moral environment do you inhabit? Crikey, I'm about to invoke Godwin's Law. I think I've had enough discussing this with you.
I understand your point. What I think people ignore is the sports landscape of new public funded stadiums is not limited to baseball, it is not even a new phenomena.
I am trying to suggest to people, open your eyes, Selig is not the only person, or even the first person to appeal for public funds. He won't be the last. What he might be is the best at ever getting public funds. Only 1 team moved under Selig. While the NFL seems to be relatively terrible at getting the public to pay for a facility with 10 events per year, as eight teams moved to seek a better deal.
Well I wasn't talking to you "fra paolo" specifically, you seemed to take my reply to McCoy personally. Sorry, but that is not my problem.
I think that has as much to do with the anti-trust exemption as anything else. You think Loria wouldn't move to Brooklyn in a New York minute if he were allowed?
I should "blow up" for you suggesting that I accept corruption. But I won't because I don't make a habit out of overreacting to things unsaid.
The NFL is also in possession of an anti-trust exemption.
It does, but it isn't nearly as encompassing as the MLB one. The MLB one allows the league to block franchise moves. The NFL one does not.
I see. Still doesn't make the fact that several NFL teams have relocated has amounted to a massive pile of fan screwing of epic proportions that makes Montreal to DC look like pee wee herman turned loose at a matinee.
True, but since the prime mover for such bliss was put in place 70 years before Bud became commish, it's hardly appropriate to give him the credit.
My bad, with a pile of Kuhn misdeeds to choose from, I got them mixed up.
It is really about the fact that MLB is far more dependent on local revenue as it is a much greater share of revenue than it is in the NFL, which depends on national TV dollars. This makes it pretty much a requirement that MLB has teams located in the largest markets, where the NFL can have a franchise on the moon, as long as TV cameras and a crew can show up.
So you can argue, and I will, that the nature of the business of football (NFL) being driven by national TV, means that their "utopia" of revenue sharing really is an illusion, or at least much, much easier to broker than baseball. Both leagues share national TV revenue evenly now. The major difference is that in MLB, the real money is with local revenue, this is not the case with the NFL. So can we acknowledge the task of a MLB commissioner is way, way more difficult than NFL commish?
The NFL has an anti-trust exemption. Yes it does. And I agree it is mostly trivial here, but I was correcting a misstatement.
Back to that point from before. The NFL doesn't really block teams from moving, yet, nobody wants to be in LA. Why? Answer: Stadium, or lack there of. Same reason as Montreal.
Kuhn even suspended owners and stopped sales of players for what he felt was the best interests of the game. Selig would never cross any current owners.
There was no misstatement. I never said nor implied that the NFL didn't have an anti-trust exemption. I said that the lack of baseball franchise move was largely a result of the (baseball's) anti-trust exemption. That is a true statement.
...the Expos fielding perhaps their greatest team ever.
And here we are, full circle.
Fine, but I found it confusing because above that statement was a quote of what I said, that referred to the NFL being relatively unable to get public funds and moving 8 times. I took that quote, along with your comment, with meaning the reason NFL failed to get public funds in several cities was due to anti-trust exemption. So now I understand...
Anyway, the lack of baseball's franchise relocation has most to do with the fact the largest markets already tend to have baseball teams, anti-trust exemption or not, MLB is already located in the largest US TV markets and 26/27 markets are already maxed out. As I mentioned above, MLB franchises are more dependent on local revenue than NFL, so it is imperative to be located in the largest markets to survive. Whereas the NFL can blow off LA and have teams in small cites, so long as TV trucks can do their thing.
So we can't really credit the NFL leadership for any magical ability to manage sharing, their sharing of national media is the same as MLB sharing.
That is true. But 1/3 or 1/5 of NYC is still much greater than 1/1 of Kansas City or Milwaukee.
Which blows a hole in your previous argument about the NFL screwing things up by not having a team in LA.
I certainly won't disagree with this. My other point is about credit. If Selig should get much credit for lack of franchise moving due to anti-trust exemption, find, he shouldn't. Then the NFL commish should get all this credit for revenue sharing, because 1) the number 1 motivation for moving has been to secure more local revenues (many relocations has occurred) 2) the NFL does nothing that MLB doesn't do regarding revenue sharing, it is just that national TV revenue dominates NFL, it is shared evenly, pretty difficult to argue otherwise. MLB does the exact same with national revenue. The difference is that most of the money in MLB is in local revenue (although slowing becoming a smaller share as national revenue grows for the game) and sharing that is very thorny. See NFL as example and all of the franchise relocations.....why, again desire to secure more local revenue.
No it doesn't. The NFL is leaving money on the table by bypassing LA, as overall national TV ratings do take a hit without spreading NFL fandom to LA. It is embarrassing the NFL is not there.
It is just less costly for the NFL to pass on LA than MLB. The marginal difference of having an NFL team in LA vs Green Bay is much, much smaller than it would be in baseball. Still it is a loss of possible revenue for the NFL to blow it off.
The marginal differences over local NFL revenue from market to market are surprisingly small. In fact, it is amazing that so many NFL teams have relocated over such a small amount of revenue. Where in baseball, the market differences are enormous.
Pete Rozelle - check
Selig..
He did just that with more revenue sharing. There are several teams that saw reduced revenues because of this.
When is the NFL going to do something about health benefits? Criminal.
Kuhn did that to screw Charlie Finley over. He despised Finley. "Best interests of the game" was a fig leaf.
MLB:
2 LA
1 more Chicago
Toronto (rumor has it they will get Buffalo?)
Milwaukee
NFL:
Green Bay
New Orleans
Jacksonville
Nashville
Buffalo
Charlotte
Indianapolis
OK, the NFL has 2 more teams. If MLB were to expand, they would get markets comparable, if not identical to Charlotte and Nashville. Milwaukee is comparable to Indy. If Buffalo goes to Toronto, the comparison is LA and 1/2 Chicago, to Green Bay, New Orleans, and Jacksonville. Advantage MLB for sure, but divided up among 32 franchises, it's probably a 100K advantage per team if that.
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