Because I have 103,415 others of the same ilk if needed.

And googling Wallbangers site:www.baseballthinkfactory.org
will find 2,840 of them! A fun way to spend a few days. Really. Well, many of them are game chatters so there may be more than one blunder per thread.

By the way, don't feel too sorry for Ned. He'll be making $1.1 million next year to watch NASCAR. Coincidentally, that's about how much you'd have to pay me to do the same.

Rosenthal - Desperate move might just work for Brewers

The Brewers took the extraordinary step Monday of firing manager Ned Yost with 12 games remaining. The move just might save their season.

Tuesday is the first day of the rest of the Brewers' life in 2008.
...
But at least now the Brewers can relax.

Under Yost, a veritable Captain Queeg in the dugout, the tension was unbearable — and toxic for a team featuring so many prominent young players.

This goes back to last season, when the Brewers pulled a similar collapse at a similar point in September. At one point, Yost told the players that jobs — his and his coaches' — were at stake. Not the right message.

Dale Sveum may relax the clubhouse for this playoff push, but for next year they should really look at hiring someone experienced, who needs a change of scenery, like Kevin Keegan or Alan Curbishley.

When this was on Sportscenter this morning, the first thing I said to my wife was "I wonder what Harvey's view on this is"

Gutsy move

He'll be making $1.1 million next year to watch NASCAR.

Can't say that until the Mariners fill their managerial slot.

By the way, don't feel too sorry for Ned. He'll be making $1.1 million next year to watch NASCAR. Coincidentally, that's about how much you'd have to pay me to do the same.

you sell yourself for cheap. I doubt 1.1mil could be enough to get me to watch Nascar. Of course the real breaking point would be would I have to refer to it as a sport?

RE: #99 - Ah yes, Trey Junkin. I have to admit I'm a bit more mellow about him after last year.

Folks, the Yost issues run deep and long. I have written about them for so long and so extensively I fear I will alienate BBTF by repeating myself for the 103,000rd time.

However, it is becoming clear that some are looking at Yost's dismissal in the immediate here and now. Context is required.

Loyalty

Yost came into this job determined to "keep faith" with those players who honored Yost's creed. So a guy could have issues but always know that Ned "had his back". This caused some level of discomfort as Ned stuck with guys despite repeated failures. But that not being uncommon with managers Brewer fans grit their teeth. But the nadir was the Wes Helms fiasco.

Helms came in as a "Yost" guy. They had been together in Atlanta, Ned advocated getting him and the Crew signed him. After a passable first season Helms had a disasterous second tour in Milwaukee. His suspect defense collapsed as Helms made more errors than Scott Rolen in half the innings played. His bat disappeared completely. Yet Yost stuck with him including the bizarre episode of batting a guy with a .350 slugging percentage as cleanup.

(And before anyone asks YOU look it up. It is in the archives. You want to challenge this comment, witnessed by me and other Brewer fans, then you get busy looking)

Helms 2005 was pretty much the last time Yost's opinion was solicited around player acquisition or talent evaulation by management.

It also led to the Podsednik trade. Podsednik openly mocked the obvious favoritism and later on quit on the bases stating later that why bother since other standards than performance were being used.

This episode can be tied to Yost seemingly being handcuffed by Braun, Weeks being placed in positions beyond their abilities defensively. But having lost credibility management now made position decisions. Another manager may have gone to the GM and explained why such and such wasn't going to work. Yost had no standing after the Helms debacle.

But Yost's "loyalty" issue reared again in 2006 when Derrick Turnvow showed signs in late May of struggling. After REPEATED failures throughout June it took a humiliating series of pathetic beatings in July before Turnbow was moved out of the closers role.

The "Plans"

Yost is big on "plans". He ponders things and then derives a preconceived tactic. And no matter the outcome he will keep going.

The most infamous is "The Plan" entering the 2007 season. Yost determined with Matt Wise, Derrick Turnbow and Cordero the Brewers could shorten games to 6 innings. So from Day 1 that was the "plan". Once the 7th rolled around unless Milwaukee was losing or winning by 10 a Brewer fan could expect the same trio. By early June the signs of strain were showing. Despite solid numbers the appearances were wighing on Wise and especially Turnbow. At the break Turnbow openly admitted he was "exhausted". Soon after Ned's plan became the Trail of Tears as the bullpen self-destructed causing Milwaukee to blow 16 games with a 3 run lead. Even after a 9-18 August in a early September game Ned rushed out to replace Suppan who had been cruising along against the Cubs. Ned does love his plans.

My fingers are tired but I am hopeful the reader now has a better understanding of the challenges of a Yost-managed team.

You will also find at least 2,840 tactical blunders by Joe Torre in the Yankee Game Chatters. That's the point. Joe Torre was right for that team, despite all the myriad offenses he committed against the stathead orthodoxy. I think so much of what a manager "does" is hidden from public view that it's almost impossible to evaluate them unless you're inside the clubhouse. It's like judging a parent based on how well-dressed his kids are. I will continue to maintain that bullpen management, lineup decisions - whatever - that's not what a manager does for his team, and those are not the reasons Ned Yost was a bad manager. Any idiot message board poster who's played Strat can do those things.

Helms 2004 season. Stupid old fingers.

Why is this thread not on the front page of the Primer Newsblog? Is there something not newsworthy about a contender firing its manager with less than two weeks to go in the season?

I wonder who are the candidates for 2009?

If the Astros let Cooper go, I would bet my shirt he gets the job.

HSF:

And I will continue to maintain that if the manager's decisions generate repeated negative outcomes the players will lose faith.

And any employee who has no faith in management whatsoever is not going to generate optimal results.

And I will also stress that by his actions we can discern the traits you deplore.

Yost has the skills to be a team "builder".

He just can't "finish".

Joe McCarthy was fired with 4 games to go in the Cubs 1930 season and the Cubs 2.5 games out.

i read that, and i thought, whoa, hold on, who managed them when they won in 1932? then i remembered mccarthy was with the yankees by then and charlie grimm was managing the cubbies. as someone mentioned, they changed managers that year too. and then i remembered they changed managers (gabby hartnett) in 1938 and won the pennant. all of this off the top of my head. then i realized i needed to get out of the basement a little more often.

Harveys, that 2007 bullpen plan sounds like the Mariners' treatment of Sean Green in the first half of 2008. He was pitching well except for one very short stretch. and was leading MLB in appearances for awhile, IIRC. John McLaren was fighting for his job, so the call went out again and again. By July, he was toast, and he hasn't been the same.

If it works, you keepo doing it, o someone will question why you didn't.

Ghost:

Only everyone around the team questioned the approach. Particularly those already concerned about Turnbow's mental state following the awful finish to 2006.

The Shouse-vs.-Burrell thing was MUCH worse than just that. It was one of the most asinine managerial displays I have ever seen. Here are the gory details, for those who missed it:

Mota starts the inning against the righty Werth and gives up a single. Next move is obvious and Yost makes it, going to LOOGY Brian Shouse to face Utley and Howard. He gets Utley (sacrifice bunt, Werth to third). With one out, you either go after Howard and hope for the strikeout - not a bad option with an excellent LOOGY on the mound - or walk him and bring in a righty to face Pat Burrell.

The problems for Yost begin with who's up in the pen - Eric Gagne (6.41 ERA, 11 HR in 39.1 IP). Gagne's not likely to get you a ground ball, his control's been awful (21 BB in 39.1 IP), and given what happens next, obviously Yost doesn't trust him. WHY HAVE HIM UP? Where's Salomon Torres (rested for the last 3 days)? Hell, where's Seth McClung (1 inning the previous game; 3 days off before that)?

After walking Howard, Yost leaves Shouse (career .845 OPS vs RHB, .589 vs LHB) in the game to face Burrell. The Phils announcers are STUNNED. Shouse is a low-ball pitcher in addition to being a lefty, and Burrell loves the low pitches. I turn to my wife and say, "This is the kind of thing that gets managers fired." Burrell gets a low pitch and laces it to right for an RBI single - 4-3 Phils.

Next up, Shane Victorino (switch-hitter) - another bad matchup for Shouse. Victorino crushes a ball into the seats for a 3-run HR - 7-3 Phils.

Shouse is still in the game, and the Phils send Pedro Feliz up to bat for the lefty Greg Dobbs. Manuel obviously won't pinch-hit again for Feliz, who will be the defensive replacement at 3B. Yost leaves Shouse in anyway, and Feliz singles. FINALLY Yost comes out and gets Shouse, bringing in Gagne.

Yost was fired now, rather than after the season, because management decided they couldn't afford any more stupid tactical mistakes down the stretch. The tactical stupidity was so bad it outweighed the psychological impact on the team of firing the manager in the last weeks of a playoff run. I don't blame them for doing it.

I have never in my life waited with such bated breath for a post on a message board.

(Thanks for spelling "bated" correctly -- little things do matter.)

I shared your anticipation, and enjoyed HW's arrival as you did. Meanwhile, I would like some assurance that Lisa's all right.

And I will stay on message that it's what the tactical issues represent.

Players are NOT stupid. And if someone keeps having the same things blow up in his face at some point a player is going to determine "Why bother?".

I KNOW the team was focussed on a good August. And they did it in style.

And then September 1st happened and let them know that NO lead is safe.

Not after YEARS of evidence......

Derrick Turnbow was a guy who had a long track record of not throwing strikes, but he threw hard, so Doug Melvin hurled him against the wall to see if he would stick. He pitches out of his mind for one year, on the basis of which Melvin gives him a completely insane 3-year deal. Then it's Ned Yost's fault for failing to protect Derrick's delicate psyche when he can't find a better closer from among the likes of Jose Capellan, Danny Kolb, and Geremi Gonzalez. Ditto Wes Helms. That was just a team being thrown together from the wreckage of the Selig era. By the way, Helms came back and had a very good year in 2005 in his proper platoon role once Hall established himself at third (only to have disestablished himself again this year - again, Ned's fault, of course). I think Melvin was right not to judge Yost by the performance of those bad teams that had no chance no matter what. The last two years - that's a different story. So for crying out loud, let 2003 go already. Maybe Melvin should also be removed from his decision-making capacity and just hand the whole operation over to Zduriencik. He's the only guy who seems to know what he's doing.

Yost is big on "plans". He ponders things and then derives a preconceived tactic. And no matter the outcome he will keep going.

One thing he didn't do was continue to bat the pitcher 8th and put Kendall 9th. I don't know why he did that (or why he stopped).

HSF:

I use these examples of larger issues.

Why are you SO adamant that a manager is not responsible for employee performance? I thought that was a manager's JOB.

This discussion is likely pointless. This view that a manager is just some bystander who succeeds by "doing no harm" baffles me.

That and I know it's wrong. After a lifetime operating businesses, running businesses, working with people, hiring/firing people, etc managers who just "are" only get by with highly motivated, talented employees.

By the way, Helms came back and had a very good year in 2005 in his proper platoon role once Hall established himself at third (only to have disestablished himself again this year - again, Ned's fault, of course).

OK, you almost had me convinced, but now it's obvious you're just HarveysBaiting.

Again, the Shouse thing wasn't about doing X vs. Y tactically. It was about Yost being unprofessional. He had to know he was showing up the team by throwing up his hands and leaving Shouse in there. He's as frustrated as everyone else, but he's supposed to be the steady hand and the cool head. That's what got him fired. He showed this late last year as well, and he probably should have been fired then.

Dejesus:

Ned had done some reading and found the move could generate a few more runs over the course of a season. He thought Kendall could get on base and help the offense be a tad better.

The team was scuffling at the time Ned went "traditional". It was change for change's sake.

HSF is referencing Yost engaging in a beanball war with the Cards which led to a loss after hitting Pujols generated a Cards rally.

Quite possibly the most irresponsible managerial act I have witnessed in 30 years.

HSF's right - Yost can't possibly be that tactically stupid. It was either Yost telling the rest of the bullpen, "You guys suck," or Yost telling management, "Look at what crap you've left me with in my bullpen." Either reason is inexcusable, and either one - particularly given the stakes in that game - was more than enough to get him fired.

Yount replaces Simmons as bench coach, Garth Iorg becomes third base coach.

Garth Iorg? B-b-b-but he never even played for the Brewers!

Garth Iorg? B-b-b-but he never even played for the Brewers!

Ahh, but his brother Dane played for the 1982 Cards, who of course defeated the 1982 Brewers.

There's always a connection!

I'm not baiting Harvey. I enjoy engaging with him, but I'm not going to kiss his ass like everyone else does. I have more respect for him than that.

Colonel:

Yost likes to play hunches. Has from Day 1. Even though HSF insists that the past is irrelevant there are elements constant in the Yost Universe.

And Shouse HAS been solid. It's just that he has to be spotted against mediocre righties when a righty is involved.

Torres was the option in that scenario however.

I can believe that Ned would lose control of his emotions and allow it to affect his judgement.

In fact, Garth's son Eli is a prospect for the <strike>hated</strike> mildly disliked Astros!

At least no one's yet made the joke that Iorg was going to split the third base coaching position with Rance Mulliniks.

At least no one's yet made the joke that Iorg was going to split the third base coaching position with Rance Mulliniks.

Yost is gone now, otherwise he probably would have done just that :)

-- MWE

HSF is just irritated that I was correct about the Crew never making it to the postseason with Yost calling the shots.

Hence him calling out all of BBTF to "prove" their snarkhood by going after the old man.

"Oh, so I kiss his #ss? I will show YOU HSF!!"

He thinks I don't appreciate his devious ways. All too well HSF, all too well.

If I had to guess the Crew goes 7-5 and misses by a game.....

Just watched the FSN press conference. Melvin looked depressed. Both guys (Doug and Attanasio) avoided primary responsibility for the decision (Melvin more implicitly).

Hard to get a great read on the situation. I know Harveys plays the I-know-people-close-to-the-club card, but I'm just skeptical of that angle in general. It seems like the players are genuinely surprised, but not necessarily relieved or upbeat. So far Cameron, Counsell, and Hardy have taken responsibility as players. Hardy especially had a lot of interesting quotes. You can find them on brewers.com.

RQ:

Hardy is the only guy who has played worth his salt during this stretch. Him and CC for the pitchers.

Ahh, but his brother Dane played for the 1982 Cards, who of course defeated the 1982 Brewers.

You know, Dane was 9-17 in that series, but except for Game 6 (which the Cards probably would have won without him) he really didn't contribute anything terribly important to any of the Cardinals' wins.

-- MWE

This situation is still blowing my mind. I think that there had to have been some kind of major confrontation that lead to this, either between Yost and Melvin or between Yost and one or more players. That, or the players came to Melvin with a very strong vote of no-confidence. In any case, something must have come to loggerheads in a pretty dramatic way.

As for Yost, I have sometimes felt that Harvey is a bit unfair, but fundamentally he's been right for a long time now. Some managers in some contexts simply have an expiration date, and Yost's was long past. Put him on a new team and he might do great. But with this particular ending, I wonder if he will ever get the chance. Between that and the burn of having the team he's managed for over five years taken away from him two weeks away from a potential playoff berth, he's got to be in a world of hurt.

Interim manager Dale Sveum said tonight that changing managers with 12 games remaining in the season ws done because "we're hoping it's a shock reaction to get them to perform to their level."
...
GM Doug Melvin said he and owner Mark Attanasio began talking about changing managers Sunday night and made the decision this morning.

"We talked about things that would jump start the club," said Melvin.
...
Melvin agreed it seemed odd to fire Yost after 14 bad games, considering the Brewers went 20-7 in August and were 24 games over .500.

"It does seem funny," said Melvin. "It does seem odd to let somebody go at that point. When (Yost) didn't have the answers (for the team's slump), we felt it was time to make a change."

MIL J-S blog

Meanwhile, I would like some assurance that Lisa's all right.

Post 150 here.

-- MWE

Harveys- Hardy has covered for himself with some homeruns, but he's also made critical errors in a couple of Manny's blowups (Mets/Padres) and bounced into a few untimely double plays. CC is really the only guy with no stink on him.

This situation is still blowing my mind.

Virtually everyone following, or with, the Brewers knew how this particular story was going to end if Yost stayed.

It still might end that way, but at least now there's some hope it's not a sequel.

Add Braun to the list of players unwilling to throw Yost under the bus.

This type of slump is a routine thing for the Brewers. If you review the past few years you will find a 30 odd game stretch where the offense vanishes. Likely tied to a low OBP/power based team. When the homers vanish it gets ugly fast.

Last May 2007 stunk. A stretch in 2006. Also 2005.

Just no time to recover with it happening now. Shock therapy needed. Previously Ned would just clap his hands and hope for better days. Which in those circumstances is what a manager has to do.

But come September you have to have a different approach. If you know your team you know the options.

And by now Ned should know this team.

This type of slump is a routine thing for the Brewers. If you review the past few years you will find a 30 odd game stretch where the offense vanishes. Likely tied to a low OBP/power based team. When the homers vanish it gets ugly fast.

Actually, low OBP teams with power usually perform fairly consistently - it's decent OBP/low power teams (AKA the 1992 Brewers) that tend to show a lot of variation.

-- MWE

Mike:

Interesting.

The scary thing in that 2007 stretch was that Prince was on.a tear and the team still went 10-20 or some such. If he had been as cold as everyone else they might have lost 90 percent of those games.

The guy who should be looking over his shoulder is Weeks. Guy is 26 and hasn't budged an inch on offense. I could see benching him for Counsell the last 2 weeks just for defense and a bit of lineup balance.

Also curious as to how Prince responds.

The headline is ripe for jokes:
MIL J-S blog: Yost didn't see it coming

"No, I didn't see it coming," said Yost. "The timing of it caught me off-guard. I just didn't see it coming."

When Yost received a telephone call from general manager Doug Melvin to meet him at the team hotel, he momentarily wondered if he'd be fired but dismissed the idea. Then, when he entered the room and owner Mark Attanasio was there, he knew he was a goner.
...
"I really hope this works and they get the jump start they're looking for," said Yost. "They were right. The team had no life the last couple of days. I don't know why. (The players) need to understand the gravity of the situation."

Yost is expected to take part in a conference call with the media tomorrow.

"I'm going to do this right," he said. "I have nothing to be ashamed about. I'm walking out with my head held high."

the kinds of players you normally use to cobble together a bullpen - Sarfate, Eveland, et al. - were traded away by Melvin.

G Galfour as well.

Helms came in as a "Yost" guy. They had been together in Atlanta, Ned advocated getting him and the Crew signed him. After a passable first season Helms had a disasterous second tour in Milwaukee. His suspect defense collapsed as Helms made more errors than Scott Rolen in half the innings played. His bat disappeared completely. Yet Yost stuck with him including the bizarre episode of batting a guy with a .350 slugging percentage as cleanup.

(And before anyone asks YOU look it up. It is in the archives. You want to challenge this comment, witnessed by me and other Brewer fans, then you get busy looking)

Helms 2005 was pretty much the last time Yost's opinion was solicited around player acquisition or talent evaulation by management.

It also led to the Podsednik trade. Podsednik openly mocked the obvious favoritism and later on quit on the bases stating later that why bother since other standards than performance were being used.

This really resonated HW. Just sick that in pro sports, you are trying to make friends and not do what is deserved.

I wonder who are the candidates for 2009?

If the Astros let Cooper go, I would bet my shirt he gets the job.

I will stop following the Brewers if they hire another 1982 Brewer. Sveum is already the Brewers 82 1st rd draft pick. DROP DEAD!!!

Yount replaces Simmons as bench coach, Garth Iorg becomes third base coach.

For real?

DROP DEAD!!!

Dale Sveum may relax the clubhouse for this playoff push, but for next year they should really look at hiring someone experienced, who needs a change of scenery, like Kevin Keegan or Alan Curbishley.

By an amazing coincidence, Keegan hasn't watch a live baseball game in over three years, either.

Newsblog: mlb.com: Yost relieved of managerial post
(66 - 4:40pm, Sep 15)
Last: Harveys Wallbangers

Perhaps the most anticipated moment in BTF history.

Edit: And it didn't disappoint.

funny, but true. I scrolled down till i saw his name. didn't even read another post.

MIL J-S:

“The position that we were in to start the month vs. where we’re at now” is why it happened, Braun said. “We had a four- or five-game lead to start the month and now we’re in a position where we’re tied. So I’m sure losing these last four games is probably what did it.”

Other players did not want to speak on the record, but club sources hinted that it was a tension-filled clubhouse and dugout at times. Yost was uptight but masked it by going out of his way to appear upbeat and assure the players everything would be fine.

That façade was obvious because it was not the manager they had come to know.

Also:

Sources within the organization indicated that Attanasio was the driving force in the decision to fire Yost. Attanasio is an aggressive businessman and money manager who is not shy to make bold moves when he thinks the situation warrants them.

I have never in my life waited with such bated breath for a post on a message board. I doubt I ever will again, and to say I was not disappointed would be an understatement of the highest order.

My first chance to get on BTF since this happened and I searched immediatly for Harveys opinion, and it was all I thought it would be.

I wonder if Melvin faced a "Fire him or it's both of you?" Ultimatum?

Because I never thought Yost would be gone under any other circumstances. It's clear Melvin remains a "Yost" guy. Even now, years after the fact, Melvin refers to Ned's time with Bobby Cox. Every time Doug mentioned that it seemed like he was justifying why Yost was still in place.

Doug has to have lost a fair amount of credibility. He convinced ownership to stick with Yost and then the team "went for it" with the CC trade. Don't know if Melvin can "pull a Hendry" and recover from a manager flop.

bump to Hot Topics

-- MWE