So where does Sheffield play? Left field?

Sheff's been in LF all season.

So why was he playing RF against the Dodgers in the last series?

Church has had a very disappointing season. His defense has been meh (even in right), and his lack of power has been mystifying.

It's still a very, very bad trade.

And just like that I became a Dodgers' fan. I don't have the time to suffer all these indignities as a Mets' fan.

So why was he playing RF against the Dodgers in the last series?

Because they don't think Evans can play anywhere else but left (and first). They're probably right too. But Evans is going back to minors now because Angel Pagan is back.

Even that last sentence is stupid. But stupidity is relative at this point.

Sheff's been in LF all season.

Well, not last night.

I'd have to check for the year.

So why was he playing RF against the Dodgers in the last series?

Well, he's played more LF than RF I should say. Why was he in RF then? Because, sadly, he's a better fielder than Tatis, who was playing LF.

Sheff was in RF because Nick Evans is actually a worse OFer (as you got to see first hand). Basically in terms of less crappy defense, the hierarchy was Church > Sheff > Evans. Which was why Sheff was in RF.

and his lack of power has been mystifying.


The mystery is that *every Met* except Sheff has been affected. Basically it's a team of 23 Castillos, 1 non-HR hitting Wright, and 1 Sheffield. Really mystifying.

Yeah, when you include Tatis: Church > Sheff > Tatis > Evans

What kills me about this trade is not what will happen in 2009. It's the fact that it seems that Frenchy will most likely be our starting RF in 2010. Egads.

Cash is coming to the #Mets in the deal.

The difference between salaries is around $550-575,000. Are the Mets that strapped for cash?

It's the fact that it seems that Frenchy will most likely be our starting RF in 2010. Egads.

Quoted for emphasis.

Jeff Francoeur will be asking the Mets at least $5 million next year in arbitration.

Are the Mets that strapped for cash?

No, all the Wilpons money is with Bernie Madoff. What could go wrong there?

There's a possibility the Mets could field this lineup one day soon.

Pagan
Cora
Murphy
Wright
Reed
Francoeur
Santos
Argenis Reyes
Redding

I am just flabbergasted. Floored. My Braves fan friend texted me, saying that Frenchy was traded. My first thought was Lenny Dykstra's "Great trade! Who'd you get?" My second thought was that he went to the Royals or Pirates. Instead of waiting for him to respond, I hopped online and saw that the Mets traded Church for him.

Gents, I laughed. I laughed harder than I had laughed in anything in a long time. I laughed like the very first time I saw Dumb & Dumber or Bring the Pain, or any great bit in a movie that made me react the same way. I wish this happened earlier in the day at work, so I could share this with my co-workers, Mets fans, all.

Speaking of which, I am very, very sorry, Mets fans. I always knew Minaya was reckless and irresponsible, but I never pegged him for stupid.

Still. This is the most hilarious trade in the history of Baseball.

Jeff Francoeur will be asking the Mets at least $5 million next year in arbitration.

Now, now, let's think of ways the Mets could still win this trade:

-Ryan Church hijacks a Boeing 747, causes it to crash, killing everyone aboard, Braves are found liable and sued for $500MM.

-The sun turns red, and we find out that Jeff Francoeur is a reverse Kryptonian; he hits .750 for the rest of the year.

-A strange virus kills off every single human on the planet capable of playing the outfield EXCEPT for Jeff Francoeur; strangely, he is still fourth on the depth chart.

strangely, he is still fourth on the depth chart.

They're doing amazing things with gorillas these days.

Now, people, really. You must remember that feeling sorry for Mets fans is like feeling sorry for a handicapped walrus that accidentally steps on a baby penguin. It is beyond its grasp to understand complex emotions like "sadness" and "blame", it's ornery enough that there's no reason to believe it wasn't on purpose, and it's a little too slow to even know that it was the cause in the first place.

Your sympathies are wasted.

Your sympathies are wasted.

Dude. Jeff Francoeur. I wouldn't wish him on my second-worst enemy.

Now, people, really. You must remember that feeling sorry for Mets fans is like feeling sorry for a handicapped walrus that accidentally steps on a baby penguin. It is beyond its grasp to understand complex emotions like "sadness" and "blame", it's ornery enough that there's no reason to believe it wasn't on purpose, and it's a little too slow to even know that it was the cause in the first place.

I'm too ####### stupid to understand what any of this means.

When I first saw this trade, I started laughing hysterically. Then I immediately came here in expectation of a great thread in Primer history. I have not been disappointed.

Seriously, wtf? This trade almost makes me feel a little sorry for Mets fans. Almost.

124: You're trying hard to make me hate all Jeffs.

Pagan
Cora
Murphy
Wright
Reed
Francoeur
Santos
Argenis Reyes
Redding

God help you if Wright takes the day off and Tatis plays third. Lineup optimizer says that the BEST lineup is

Pagan
Murphy
Francoeur
Tatis
Reed
Redding (Yep, the best lineup, and most of the best ones, all have Tim Redding batting SIXTH.)
Cora
Santos
A. Reyes

For 3.5 RPG.

Quote from Neyer's comments:

Fantastic move. Francoeur is a serious talent with loads of upside. Plus he's already put together a better career than Ryan Church. Two 100 RBI seasons to Church's zero.

Sure, that's true, I guess.

Fun fact - Francouer is only the 2d worst player traded today.

I haven't been around much ately because it's just been too damned depressing too follow the team closely. Then I get a text from my Yankee fan uncle and a FB poke from Hutcheson, and I know that whatever ugly we'd been experiencing must have descending to some sort of evil that dares not speak its name.

If there is any doubt at all about Omar Minaya's incompetence, this move removes it. I want to say that at least it's only a short-term piece os lunacy, because they will obviously non-tender Franceour and be done with him at season's end. But who can possibly be confident of that, at this point?

Please, Omar, just do nothing, will you? Just DO NOTHING.

Thank God I just had laser surgery on my eyes yesterday and they're still adjusting. Maybe it'll turn out the doctor gave me the special gift of not being able to see Francoeur's ABs . . . .

God help you if Wright takes the day off and Tatis plays third. Lineup optimizer says that the BEST lineup is

Pagan
Murphy
Francoeur
Tatis
Reed
Redding (Yep, the best lineup, and most of the best ones, all have Tim Redding batting SIXTH.)
Cora
Santos
A. Reyes

For 3.5 RPG.

That's pretty awesome. Although, judging by how the season's gone thus far, Manuel wouldn't let Wright take the day off if Wright caught boneitis.

The only thing that can make this funnier would be if John Rocker would be so kind as to give Frenchy tips on dealing with the NY media before he departs.

And I thought I was having a bad day -- Mets fans, you'll have my sympathy as soon as my eyes stop rolling.

124: You're trying hard to make me hate all Jeffs.

I have a lot of reasons to detest the Mets. My dad was from St. Louis, diehard Cardinals fan. A kid in my class (in Texas) from 3rd-5th grade moved from Queens. When they won in '86 he was insufferable about it. An otherwise perfectly okay guy (kid, I guess) would start talking about the Mets and turn into Lord Douche of Douchington. Let's see, then I couldn't *stand* the early 90s Mets. And then of course there's the whole Bobby V thing, him being an arrogant prick and not much fun at all to work for, on top of being decidedly creepy around females who were too young for Bobby Jr, much less him.

Really, it's a testament to the internet that I've been able to be friendly with the Wonder Boys Matt and Jeremy, Sam M., Dial, OFF, even Why. There's a ton of others I'm not naming there, of course. I really, really, really hate the Mets. So you can hate me, you probably should.

You know your GM is a numbskull when he turns in his desperation to the worst player in the entire league. I mean, I get the desperation. But it never would have occurred to me once in 1000 years to turn to Franceour in my hour of need. If Minaya really wanted to commit suicide, cyanide would have been quicker, cleaner, and wouldn't have cost him Ryan Church.

I have only seen Francoeur play a couple of times this year, but the reactions to this seem excessive. It would make more sense for a team that was totally out of it (like the Padres) but I don't see this as some bizarre, crazy, OMFG move on Minaya's part. I wouldn't have done it if I were Minaya, but I can't see it as a spit-take/gallows humor thing either. Teams take shots at "fixing" guys like JF all the time, and Church is much older than Francoeur.

I actually like Church OK as a part-time OF, so I can see why the Braves did this, certainly.

I want to say that at least it's only a short-term piece os lunacy, because they will obviously non-tender Franceour and be done with him at season's end.

This is where it's an even-if-you-win-you-lose situation. If Francoeur sucks this season, you ditch him. If Francoeur plays well, then the team gets tempted to bring him back next year, when he'll return to sucking, only for more money.

Jeff K: Fair enough.

Sam: I feel dirty for having defended Minaya. All these years, I've been helping the enemy.

Sam: Did you hear Omar's press conference? It was surreal. Basically, they were brainstorming yesterday afternoon, and this guy named "John Rico (sp?)" came up with Jeff Francoeur. Brainstorming and you come up with JEFF FREAKIN' FRANCOEUR? Is this an anti-think tank that Omar employs!?

The good news: Francoeur had three doubles last night
The bad news: He's reached quota of extra base hits for July

Rest assured though he has a limitless supply of popups and first pitch double play balls.

Teams take shots at "fixing" guys like JF all the time, and Church is much older than Francoeur.

You can't fix Francoeur. He is a god-awful baseball player, and would be even if his offense was being produced by a middle infielder. The BEST OBP he has ever had in a season is .338, and he's been under .300 the last two seasons. He's never slugged over .449, either, except in a 70 game trial in 2005 that I think we can now safely say is totally meaningless in the context of telling us who Jeff Francoeur is. He hasn't learned, or grown, as a player, since coming up. The real problem is what it says about your organization that the GM even thinks of this guy as someone he wants to acquire. It is just numbingly depressing.

There's a famous line in one of the BJ Abstracts:

If Henry Cotto is a baseball player, then I'm a helicopter.

...

Well, if Jeff Francoeur is a baseball player, then I'm a helicopter.

####.

Minaya is showing his versatility by acquiring a non-Latino here. Kudos to him.

There's a famous line in one of the BJ Abstracts:

If Henry Cotto is a baseball player, then I'm a helicopter.

...

Well, if Jeff Francoeur is a baseball player, then I'm a helicopter.

It's close. Cotto had a career .308 wOBA vs a .313 for Frenchy. But Cotto played a lot of CF, so was probably a better defender.

I'd take Cotto.

It's like the Mets and Royals front offices were cryogencially frozen in 2006 and just de-thawed. And now they think they've both gotten good players.

Oh, you guys will remember of course that Bobby did respond, when I quoted Minaya on Mike Stanley's game-calling abilities (this was in the '99-'00 offseason), that "Omar is a drunk who runs his mouth off". So maybe Kasten just took him out to a bar, liquored him up, got him all riled up about some issue with the Catholic Church, and then confused him into making a statement by getting rid of Ryan.

I still cant believe it. It's as if some wonderful fairy has come and granted all of my wishes.

It's like the Mets and Royals front offices were cryogencially frozen in 2006 and just de-thawed.

And the heads are missing.

It's as if some wonderful fairy has come and granted all of my wishes.

Hey, don't blame me for this. I didn't do it.

I just got word of this.

The Mets deserve to loser every game for the rest of they year.

Morons. Idiots. Fools.

John F. Mabry was a stroke of genius. This is nuts.

being decidedly creepy around females who were too young for Bobby Jr, much less him.

Did you really post this, Jeff? Hahaha!

It's as if some wonderful fairy has come and granted all of my wishes.

Hey, don't blame me for this. I didn't do it.

Well, no one is topping that.

Hey, don't blame me for this. I didn't do it.

Ha.

SI's cover this week has Ryan and Seaver in sepia ca. 1969.

I've been reading BTF for a long time, but never bothered posting before. This is so depressing, I actually have been driven to post for the first time.

I'm a Mets fan. And if I ever find this John Rico guy, so help me God, I am going to do things. Horrible things. I've watched a lot of games in the past 22 years, and for the first time ever, I just don't want to watch anymore.

The power of Francouer

I officially agree with the doomsday Mets fans now. before I was saying that they should be a little more positive, now I'm pretty sure their attitude is 100% right.

I have only seen Francoeur play a couple of times this year, but the reactions to this seem excessive. It would make more sense for a team that was totally out of it (like the Padres) but I don't see this as some bizarre, crazy, OMFG move on Minaya's part. I wouldn't have done it if I were Minaya, but I can't see it as a spit-take/gallows humor thing either. Teams take shots at "fixing" guys like JF all the time, and Church is much older than Francoeur.

I agree. It's a bad trade for the Mets, but nowhere near the disaster that some people are claiming it to be, mostly because Church isn't all together that good himself.

I'd rather have Church, but Francoeur is only 25 and there's always a chance that he'll put it together--a very low chance, but still a chance.

It's pretty clear that the Mets are not going anywhere in 2009, so giving Francoeur half a season to see if he can develop into a decent player makes more sense than continuing to play Church. And if sucks as expected, DFA him in the off-season. Next step should be to trade Sheffield (to free up LF for Evans/Martinez) to a contender and see if there's a market for anyone not named Reyes, Wright, Beltran, Santana, Pelfrey, Maine, or Rodriguez.

The atlanta pregame radio guys appear to have still been drinking the koolaid. It's as if they haven't been watching this season. Or last season.


They think "they'll really appreciate him in NY. The way he really hustles. . ."

Jeff hustles? Since when?

To anyone who doesn't think this trade is AWFUL, look at post 155.

This is schadenfreude heaven for Braves fans in NYC.

I'd rather have Church, but Francoeur is only 25 and there's always a chance that he'll put it together--a very low chance, but still a chance.

"1 in a 1000?"
"More like 1 in a million"

"So you're telling me there's a chance."

And if sucks as expected, DFA him in the off-season.

As Sam mentioned, there's little reason to believe the Mets are smart enough to do this.

And enough with Frenchy's upside. Seriously, what is his upside? .340/.450 with plus defense? Because that's Ryan Church.

The point is, for a player as bad as Frenchy, you shouldn't even have to give up Ryan Church. A player who marginally helps another team. IN YOUR DIVISION.

And if sucks as expected, DFA him in the off-season. Next step should be to trade Sheffield (to free up LF for Evans/Martinez)

The problem is, and I think most Mets fans would agree with me, Omar just isn't smart enough to do that. Jeff Franceour is going to be our RF'er next year, there's next to no doubt in my mind.

And as for trading Sheffield, do you think we could get Betancourt?

Next step should be to trade Sheffield (to free up LF for Evans/Martinez) to a contender and see if there's a market for anyone not named Reyes, Wright, Beltran, Santana, Pelfrey, Maine, or Rodriguez.

They probably can't do this from a financial/marketing standpoint. For as long as they can, they need to at least create the impression of intending to compete to sell those high-priced tickets, and keep those folks who have purchased them coming to Citi Field and buying all that food and concessions. The Mets really need those revenue streams to be healthy for a lot of reasons, not least of which is the extent to which the Wilpons' personal finances were compromised by Madoff. They need to be able to present solid revenue stream & projections going forwsrd. The last thing they can & will do is have a fire sale, even if it is the "right" thing to do from a competitive standpoint.

Odds of John Ricco taking a personal day on Monday?

I'm a die hard Mets fan, and my reaction was:

Still. This is the most hilarious trade in the history of Baseball.

HOW CAN YOU HATE THIS TRADE! It is comedy gold, and the perfect punctuation for the first half.

It's pretty clear that the Mets are not going anywhere in 2009, so giving Francoeur half a season to see if he can develop into a decent player makes more sense than continuing to play Church.

is this really all that clear? i personally don't think the Mets can make a run, but i'm not so sure they can't. and even if you don't think they will, i can't help but think that Church is a way better bet to be a good next year than Francoeur is.

Here's the passage on Henry Cotto. I misremembered the metaphor, but this basically applies to Jeff Francoeur:

On the one hand, you've got your Henry Cottos, and on the other hand, you've got your Ken Phelpses. If Henry Cotto is a major league ballplayer, I'm an airplane. Cotto is one of those guys who runs well and throws pretty decent, and one year he hit .270-something, and even though it was an empty .270 in Wrigley Field in not very many at bats, you'll get guys like Don Zimmer who will rave about this great young prospect and keep trading for him, so he'll get about eight chances to play in the major leagues before they figure out he can't hit. At first when he doesn't hit they'll say he just needs more playing time, and then they'll say that he needs to stop wiggling his elbows while the pitcher is in motion or some little thing like that, and then they'll say he needs to point his lead foot and learn to keep his weight back, and then they'll say he needs to be more aggressive at the plate, and then they'll say he needs to go back to wiggling his elbows like he did when he had the good year with the Cubs. They always figure that if you can run and throw they'll teach you to hit. Of course they can't teach anybody to hit, but they always think they can, so they keep trying.

Then on the other hand you've got your Ken Phelpses. Ken Phelps has been a major-league ballplayer since at least 1980; through 1985 he had 567 at bats in the major leagues with 40 home runs and 92 RBIs. The Mariners didn't want to let him play. See, the problem was that Chuck Cottier, in his day, was a Henry Cotto, a guy who could run and throw, but couldn't play baseball. Most major league managers were those kind of guys. Ken Phelps, on the other hand, can't run particularly well and doesn't throw well, and if you're that kind of player and want to play major league baseball you'd better go seven for twenty in your first week in the major leagues, or they'll decide it's time to take another look at Henry Cotto. Ken Phelps in his first two shots at major league pitching went three for twenty-six. This cost him several years of his career.

Luckily for all of us, mlb.com Gameday tells me Delta is the official airline of the New York Mets, so I feel like the blog is just headed north...

is this really all that clear? i personally don't think the Mets can make a run, but i'm not so sure they can't. and even if you don't think they will, i can't help but think that Church is a way better bet to be a good next year than Francoeur is.

Also, seems like that's playing a dangerous game. If Francoeur actually does put together, say, a run like he did when he first came up, the Mets might end up in the same situation as the Braves, fooled into playing a guy who should be sitting on the bench.

fooled into playing a guy who should be sitting on the bench in Buffalo.

Added for accuracy.

You know, I almost made that joke, Sam.

I actually like Church OK as a part-time OF, so I can see why the Braves did this, certainly.

For God's Sake, if they non-tender Church tomorrow, the Braves still won this deal.

sorry Mets fans. My condolences.

As Dan wrote in the TO thread,

This is a good trade for the Braves if Church died yesterday.

I get the feeling that the Braves are good for an Alex Rios trade.

Now, people, really. You must remember that feeling sorry for Mets fans is like feeling sorry for a handicapped walrus that accidentally steps on a baby penguin. It is beyond its grasp to understand complex emotions like "sadness" and "blame", it's ornery enough that there's no reason to believe it wasn't on purpose, and it's a little too slow to even know that it was the cause in the first place.

Oh yeah. Well said. A man of impeccable tastes and morals. Just remember, the cosmic/karmic balance will not be restored even by trades as stupid as this one. Obnoxiousness must be repaid with obnoxiousness -- and there's so damn much to make up for. So it's no good to just stand idly by as a Mets fan cries over a boneheaded trade; you have to point and laugh at them while they are crying. You're doing a great job.

Now I've got to run and whisper "Terry Pendleton" and "Tommy Herr" and "Yadier Molina" in Dial's ear before the emts crank-up the defibrillator.

This whole thing is just too funny forever.

I take back all the bad things I said about Frank Wren.

Frank, if you're reading this, I'm sorry.

is this really all that clear? i personally don't think the Mets can make a run, but i'm not so sure they can't. and even if you don't think they will, i can't help but think that Church is a way better bet to be a good next year than Francoeur is.

If the Mets got Beltran, Delgado, and Reyes back right after the ASB, then perhaps. But Reyes hasn't started his rehab assignment and probably won't be back until a week after. Meanwhile Beltran's knee isn't improving, so both he and Delgado are looking more like mid-August than mid-July.

At the end of day, I don't see either the Braves or the Mets catching the Phillies in 2009. And post-concussion Church just isn't that much of an asset as he heads into his 30s, so I don't see the Mets missing him in 2010 either. Now Francoeur probably isn't the answer in 2010, but neither was Church.

So it's no good to just stand idly by as a Mets fan cries over a boneheaded trade; you have to point and laugh at them at them while they are crying.

RETARDO is obviously still trying to figure out how his Cards were the only team in the last month or so that the Mets actually took a series from (3 out of 4). Given the state of our roster, that's like losing to a bad AA team. But Tony & Co. managed to pull it off, somehow.

I think it's much more likely that church gets a better reception and a nicer fresh start in Atlanta than Frenchie does in NYC.

Although 58% of fans who responded to the text-in Braves TV poll think this is a bad trade for the Braves, so who knows. As i told my GF when that graphic came up, this is why i go to BTF for my baseball chatter and insight.

Thank God I just had laser surgery on my eyes yesterday and they're still adjusting.

Eyes are overrated.

Guys, have I mentioned lately the great work done by Dr. Jonathan Zizmor? I hope so, because he's earned it! The former Chief of Dermatology at St. Vincent’s Hospital in New York (which is my favorite city!), Dr. Zizmor was recognized by Harper's Bazaar as one of the "Top Ten Doctors in America." His office provides a wide variety of cosmetic and medical dermatology services such as Botox®, Thermalift®, liposuction, collagen, Restylane®, laser treatment and chemical peels (including his exclusive Fruit Acid Peel.) Best of all, he recognizes that every patient has different needs, and he treats you like family. During your office consultation, you will be provided with a detailed plan of the treatments that will benefit you most.

What's your favorite skin disease?

Now Francoeur probably isn't the answer in 2010, but neither was Church.

Church is better, though, and probably will be better. What's the point? You shouldn't trade your last $10 for $7 just because you'll be poor either way.

ntr Jeff Francouer is right below Harveys as my favorite poster.

RETARDO is obviously still trying to figure out how his Cards were the only team in the last month or so that the Mets actually took a series from (3 out of 4).

If RETARDO has watched much of Thompson and Wellemeyer this year, then it's not much of a mystery.

I agree. It's a bad trade for the Mets, but nowhere near the disaster that some people are claiming it to be, mostly because Church isn't all together that good himself.

I would say the day is much more good for Braves fans than it is bad for Mets fans. For Braves fans this is Liberation day. We now live in a post 7/10 world. This guy terrorized the franchise for five years and there seemed to be no end in sight. And now - poof - he's gone.

Mets fans will hate Francoeur, he'll suck, but this season was probably lost anyway. There's no reason Mets brass will just keep sending him out there like the Braves did once they figure out how bad he is.

This is beyond awesome. I'll read the whole thread later. I love Frank Wren.

What's the point?

As I've said, it's a bad trade for the Mets because they did not optimize their return for Church, and as such it is not one that I would have made (although I'm certainly not opposed to the concept of a non-contender moving a player like Church). But it's not a historically bad trade, as some have tried to claim (that's the point).

Some have tried to compare it to the 2004 Kazmir for Zambrano trade, which is just plain nuts. Had the Mets traded Steve Traschel for Zambrano, then the two might be comparable. And I'm not so sure that that trade would have been a certain disaster for the Mets: Zambrano tanked, but he showed some promise with the D-Rays--but what made the trade a disaster was losing Kazmir. Church is a semi-useful mediocrity, like Traschel. The idea that he could somehow be the difference in 2009 or 2010 is just plain laughable.

I expect Francoeur to continue to crash and burn, in which case New York DFA's him in the winter and moves on. Then the error is simply not getting something worthwhile in return for Church. But it's not like Church was going to fetch a hot prospect. At best, he'd bring in another semi-useful role player or project. Francoeur wouldn't be the project that I'd choose, but at 25 he's still got a small chance of being something useful.

But it's not a historically bad trade, as some have tried to claim (that's the point).

so the the Mets made the trade solely because it wasn't historically bad? That doesn't strike me as a good way to run a baseball club.

There's no reason Mets brass will just keep sending him out there like the Braves did once they figure out how bad he is.

and

I expect Francoeur to continue to crash and burn, in which case New York DFA's him in the winter and moves on. Then the error is simply not getting something worthwhile in return for Church.

Church is nothing.

The thought process that led Omar to conclude that obtaining Jeff Francouer was a good idea is everything.

If they were too dumb to realize that before, if they assumed they had something in Omir Santos, then there is absolutely no reason to believe that they are going to DFA Francouer.

I will not root for the Mets again until Minaya is history.

Church is nothing, Francouer is nothing.

It's amazing that this thread has 190 posts.

But it's not a historically bad trade, as some have tried to claim (that's the point).

No, it's not (Cortes and Saito for Betancourt has a better chance of being that) but it is pretty damn good trade for the Braves, beyond the inherent hilarity of the pride of Parkview headed to New York, Frank Wren pawned off his worst major league player on a divisional rival while acquiring an ideal platoon partner for Matt Diaz. In less than half a season he's turned the outfield from gimpy Garret Anderson/injured Jordan Schafer/Francoeur to healthy Anderson/McLouth/Diaz-Church. He shouldn't get credit for setting the bar so low but he's greatly improved the team.

Church is nothing, Francouer is LESS THAN nothing.

FTFY HTH

But it's not a historically bad trade, as some have tried to claim

That's supposed to be the saving grace -- the trade is bad, but at least it's not historically bad?

The trade may not be historically bad, but that fact is that no team in its right mind should want to trade to Francoeur. The fact that the Mets did, demonstrates that Omar Minaya is totally lost.

I'm done with this team.

If Henry Cotto is a baseball player, then I'm a helicopter or an airplane or a jetpack or some M creation I haven't heard about yet

Henry Cotto had his uses and his limitations. He was a fifth outfielder (the one who can't hit but can play center) who could give your regular CF a few days a month off, be a late inning caddy for a defensively challenged corner OF, and pinch run. There are plenty of players on MLB rosters today who could/should be doing this. If your team is giving one of them 200 PAs, then your team is giving away wins.

As a long time Braves fan I have to admit to being pretty happy about this deal.

I would say though that there is a small chance Francoeur could still develop into an average MLB rightfielder. The defense and arm are there, even if he is not as good as he thinks he is. At the plate though, maybe he can turn Jaramillo's hitting suggestions and turn them into something. By the end of the 2007 season Francoeur correctly noted that he needed to improve his approach at the plate. Unfortunately he went off and worked out with a bunch of college football trainers, who unsurprisingly, strengthened and stiffened his body core, A LOT. Once he got to spring training in 2008 it was obvious that, as a baseball player Jeff had turned himself into a strong stiff. He always has had problems with pitches located high and in and low and outside, problems which were substantially magnified by being so stiff. He started compensating (think cheating) to cope, and each step of compensation made his plight worse and worse. By late May 2008 he was an absolute mess. Eventually Francoeur figured out that he needed to drop the weight and regain his flexibility, which he more or less had achieved by September 2008. So if you are looking to judge him, I would suggest throwing out all his 2008 stats, as they were very negatively impacted by the extra 15 pounds of stiffening muscle he added for that season. I would suggest judging him from his 2006/7 baseline, because in reality, THAT player is the "real" Francoeur.

This last winter, I, like most Braves fans, were hoping for improvement from him. Realistically we were really hoping for, at best, a return to his 2006/2007 level of performance. Personally it was a complete surprise when we started hearing reports that he had been working with Rudy Jarmillo in order to rebuild his swing. He had some success with the new swing in spring training 2009 and very early in the season. Unfortunately, he was just hitting singles, not much power at all. I will leave it to folks more knowledgeable about hitting than I to comment on how long it should take him to get the new swing down. Personally, I would think 500 PA is a realistic barometer. There lies whatever level of hope you may want to muster Mets fans. Francoeur claims to be "finally comfortable" with the new swing over the last couple of weeks. It is going to be you, rather we Braves fans, who get to watch and see if he is actually able to put the new swing to good use.

On the negative side, Francoeur has always had substantial pitch recognition problems, and has shown no improvement over his MLB career that I have been to able to discern on this issue.

In conclusion, hope that sometime over the rest of the summer that the new swing "clicks" with him. Then you need to find a hitting coach who can get him to improve (a lot) on his pitch recognition skills. If you can get those two items accomplished you might have something worthwhile.

Good news, Mets fans. At least one recent (non-fired, I might add) GM thinks you guys got a steal!

This just gets funnier each time I refresh.

so the the Mets made the trade solely because it wasn't historically bad? That doesn't strike me as a good way to run a baseball club.

And I never said it was (in fact, I've said several times that it was a bad trade), just that it was not a disastrous trade. Specifically, in post 158 (my first comment in the thread):

I agree. It's a bad trade for the Mets, but nowhere near the disaster that some people are claiming it to be, mostly because Church isn't all together that good himself.

Which I then expounded upon in 189 for those (namely you) who couldn't grasp the idea that there are varying levels of "bad" with respect to trades, and this one wasn't a complete disaster. But at no point did I endorse the specifics of this trade.

If acquiring Frenchy is not bad enough, Bronson Arroyo is one out away from 4 hitting the Mets. That's not a typo, it's Bronson Arroyo.

Subtraction by addition.

Luis Castillo dropping that fly ball was enough to make me stop watching the Mets for a couple of weeks. This is enough to make me stop watching for the rest of the season*. Congrats Omar!

* I unfortunatly have tickets for Sunday's game, so maybe I'll see Frenchy's Mets debut if he doesn't play tomorrow.