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Wednesday, November 11, 2009

Money Worries Could Force Reds to Move All-Star Phillips, Others

The Reds’ need to slash payroll, according to a major league source, could lead them to explore trading second baseman Brandon Phillips as well as right-handers Bronson Arroyo and Aaron Harang.

Cincinnati’s 2009 payroll was about $71 million. General manager Walt Jocketty said during a break Tuesday at the GM Meetings that he “might” have to move some high-salaried players to meet the 2010 goal.

“We’re going to probably have less to spend this year than we have in the past,” Jocketty told FanHouse. “It just depends on how [ticket] sales go this offseason.”

In the Red.

Gamingboy Posted: November 11, 2009 at 11:55 AM | 58 comment(s)
Related News: General, Cincinnati

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1. Weeks T. Olive Posted: November 11, 2009 at 12:18 PM (#3384982)

“We’re going to probably have less to spend this year than we have in the past,” Jocketty told FanHouse. “It just depends on how [ticket] sales go this offseason.”

I love it - it sounds like an ultimatum: "Fans, you'd better pay in advance to come watch our crappy team or we're going to get even crappier, so help me God."

2. Shooty Did Not Kill McGurk

Posted: November 11, 2009 at 12:26 PM (#3384996)

I love it - it sounds like an ultimatum: "Fans, you'd better pay in advance to come watch our crappy team or we're going to get even crappier, so help me God."

Yeah. You could probably phrase that differently, Walt. Jeez. "Pay up or enjoy the hell out of Ryan Freel!" is just mean.

edit: Actually, Freel is a Cub or something now, right? Maybe Taveras can convert to second?

3. Ryan Jones Posted: November 11, 2009 at 12:29 PM (#3385004)

What the ####? They need to slash payroll? Then why the hell did they trade for Rolen's contract?

4. Tripon Posted: November 11, 2009 at 12:30 PM (#3385006)

So they can trade Rolen's contract themselves.

5. Nothing Iffey About Griffey Posted: November 11, 2009 at 12:31 PM (#3385008)

Exactly Ryan! And who thought it was a good idea to sign Willy "46 OPS+" Taveras ($4mil) and Mike "Stinkin" Lincoln (2.5mil) to two year deals after '08?

6. Dewey, Local Boy and Soupuss Posted: November 11, 2009 at 12:34 PM (#3385016)

The White Sox engage in this sort of blackmail from time to time, as well. Telling your fans that they need to come out before you put a decent product on the field doesn't really encourage ticket sales.

7. The elusive Robert Denby Posted: November 11, 2009 at 12:35 PM (#3385019)

[Brennaman]This is obviously Adam Dunn's fault.[/Brennaman]

8. McCoy Posted: November 11, 2009 at 12:40 PM (#3385029)

This is the situation that Hendry used to thrive in. Unfortunately he painted himself into a corner with some really bad contracts but I wonder if Ricketts wouldn't open up the wallet.

Phillips contracts looks to be as bad as Bradley's except Brandon doesn't have the same off the field problems as Bradley. The Cubs don't really need pitching, okay everybody needs pitching, so trading for two double digit millions multiyear contracted starting pitchers isn't really a pressing need for the Cubs. The Cubs need a second baseman and unfortunately Brandon is not the answer to that.

9. McCoy Posted: November 11, 2009 at 12:42 PM (#3385032)

Man, scrolling through Cot's I see the Red with a lot of large contracts for a lot of players that pretty darn close to mediocre or worse.

10. Owner, SC Harnisches Posted: November 11, 2009 at 12:42 PM (#3385033)

HOLY S*** I AM INFURIATED! (Sorry for the Caps Lock.)

Honestly, if financial woes were on the horizon, then WHY DID THEY TRADE FOR ROLEN? If this is legitimate and not just a scare tactic to try to drum up revenue (as pointed out by others) then this might be enough to get me to permaban the Reds.

Also, I typed this post before I read the existing comments so apologies for the duplicate content. Hey, at least the Bengals are in first place!

11. Weeks T. Olive Posted: November 11, 2009 at 12:45 PM (#3385039)

Phillips contracts looks to be as bad as Bradley's except Brandon doesn't have the same off the field problems as Bradley. The Cubs don't really need pitching, okay everybody needs pitching, so trading for two double digit millions multiyear contracted starting pitchers isn't really a pressing need for the Cubs. The Cubs need a second baseman and unfortunately Brandon is not the answer to that.

Almost nothing in this paragraph makes any sense to me.

EDIT: The only thing I can figure is that maybe you got Brandon Arroyo confused with Brandon Phillips. I did not RTFA, however, so maybe you are referencing something specific from the article.

12. Danny Posted: November 11, 2009 at 12:48 PM (#3385044)

With the Jays picking up all of Rolen's 2009 salary and Encarnacion due to make $4.75M in 2010, the Reds only added about $5M in salary from that swap. That's still bad, but not quite as much as Rolen's $11M salary makes it seem.

13. Ryan Jones Posted: November 11, 2009 at 12:51 PM (#3385050)

True, but why add $6M in salary for a good but injury prone player at a time when you're going to need to cut salary? It just doesn't make any sense.

Besides, if they were really concerned about salary (or had even thought of it), they could have just not traded for Rolen, non-tendered Encarnacion in the offseason, and saved $11M.

14. Nothing Iffey About Griffey Posted: November 11, 2009 at 12:52 PM (#3385051)

Man, scrolling through Cot's I see the Red with a lot of large contracts for a lot of players that pretty darn close to mediocre or worse.

Francisco Cordero 12 million
Aaron Harang 11 million
Bronson Arroyo 11 million
Scott Rolen 11 million
Brandon Phillips 7 million
Crappy Taveras 4 million
Stinkin Lincoln 2.5 million
Arthur Rhodes 2 million
Ramon Hernandez 1 million buyout. The Reds have already stated that they are not picking up the 8.5 million option

Of that group, only Cordero and Phillips have a guaranteed contract for '11. Harang and Arroyo both have options for the same amount they are making in '10.

15. Ryan Jones Posted: November 11, 2009 at 12:54 PM (#3385055)

Of that list, do any of those players represent legitimate tradebait? I'd say Rolen does, and Rhodes could easily be moved, but the rest are guys who would require someone to toss in a healthy amount of cash as a sweetener.

16. McCoy Posted: November 11, 2009 at 12:55 PM (#3385057)

The article says that Phillips, Arroyo, and Harang might go on the trading block. Out of the three the Cubs need a second baseman which is what Phillops is. Phillips is owed 18.75 million dollars over the next two years. Bradley is owed 21 million over two years.

I'm saying that out of three the only one the Cubs could really use is a second baseman and unfortunately the second baseman the Reds have is getting paid a lot of money to walk the razor's edge of mediocrity. The Cubs had to dump salary to get MB's contract so a contract that costs roughly the same as MB's is not likely to be added on to the payroll, especially for the kind of production Phillips would give them.

17. Danny Posted: November 11, 2009 at 12:55 PM (#3385058)

non-tendered Encarnacion in the offseason

Not after they signed him to a 2-year deal last offseason...

18. Ryan Jones Posted: November 11, 2009 at 12:57 PM (#3385059)

Not after they signed him to a 2-year deal last offseason...

Oh ####. So the Jays are stuck with his useless corpse manning 3B this year?

Delightful.

19. Nothing Iffey About Griffey Posted: November 11, 2009 at 12:57 PM (#3385060)

the second baseman the Reds have is getting paid a lot of money to walk the razor's edge of mediocrity.

Is a 100 OPS+, GG caliber 2nd baseman really close to mediocre?

20. McCoy Posted: November 11, 2009 at 12:58 PM (#3385063)

Is one season really a career?

21. Randy Jones Posted: November 11, 2009 at 12:59 PM (#3385064)

I didn't RTFA but they blame the Yankees for this at some point, right

22. Ryan Jones Posted: November 11, 2009 at 01:01 PM (#3385067)

Is a 100 OPS+, GG caliber 2nd baseman really close to mediocre?

Phillips hit 276 .329 .447 for a 102 OPS+. The average 2B hit .271 .336 .416 for a 100 OPS+.

By total zone, Phillips has been a slightly below average 2B in the last couple seasons.

Combining all that, and he's actually almost exactly on the line that defines mediocre.

23. Tripon Posted: November 11, 2009 at 01:02 PM (#3385068)

Edwin Encarnacion 3b
2 years/$7.6M (2009-10)

* 2 years/$7.6M (2009-10)
o re-signed by Cincinnati 2/17/09 (avoided arbitration, $3.7M-$2.55)
o $0.85M signing bonus (due between 3/09 and 11/09)
o 09:$2M, 10:$4.75M
o performance bonus: $25,000 for 600 PAs
o award bonuses
o acquired by Toronto in trade from Cincinnati 7/31/09 (Blue Jays paid Reds undisclosed amount to cover part of Scott Rolen's salary as part of deal)
* 1 year/$0.45M (2008)
o re-signed by Cincinnati 3/4/08
* 1 year/$0.4075M (2007)
o re-signed 3/07
* 1 year/$0.3325M (2006)
o re-signed 2/06
* drafted 2000 (9-274)
* $55,000 signing bonus
* ML service: 3.085

24. Nothing Iffey About Griffey Posted: November 11, 2009 at 01:03 PM (#3385071)

Is one season really a career?

Since '07, Phillips has had OPS+ of 105, 94, 102. He's only won one GG, but, he appears to be a truly excellent defender and has been since he took over 2nd base in 2006. He's been 20-20 3 straight years.

25. McCoy Posted: November 11, 2009 at 01:07 PM (#3385077)

And out of those three seasons the only one that could be said to be not even be close to mediocre is 2007, one season. The other two, depening on what you use, are either mediocre or slightly above mediocre.

26. Shooty Did Not Kill McGurk

Posted: November 11, 2009 at 01:09 PM (#3385079)

Since '07, Phillips has had OPS+ of 105, 94, 102. He's only won one GG, but, he appears to be a truly excellent defender and has been since he took over 2nd base in 2006. He's been 20-20 3 straight years.

Then it makes perfect sense to trade the one guy who actually earns his salary.

27. TerpNats Posted: November 11, 2009 at 01:09 PM (#3385080)

The article says that Phillips, Arroyo, and Harang might go on the trading block. Out of the three the Cubs need a second baseman which is what Phillips is.

It would probably be bad PR for the Reds to trade Phillips within the division; similar to the Jays trading Halladay to the Yanks or Bosox. Especially at a time when you're griping about money.

28. Edmundo is Super Average Man

Posted: November 11, 2009 at 01:13 PM (#3385085)

Phillips hit 276 .329 .447 for a 102 OPS+. The average 2B hit .271 .336 .416 for a 100 OPS+.

By total zone, Phillips has been a slightly below average 2B in the last couple seasons.

Combining all that, and he's actually almost exactly on the line that defines mediocre.

Mediocre can be a misleading word, with the broad range that it covers, per dictionary.com:

1. of only ordinary or moderate quality; neither good nor bad; barely adequate.
2. rather poor or inferior.

I certainly think a league-average player is not "barely adequate" or "rather poor or inferior", yet you could call him "neither good nor bad" and "of only ordinary or moderate quality". I think that Brandon Phillips is average for a 2B, which certainly has value.

I'd let you get away with :), "Combining all that, and he's actually almost exactly on the upper line that defines the mediocre range."

29. Ryan Jones Posted: November 11, 2009 at 01:16 PM (#3385088)

I'd let you get away with :), "Combining all that, and he's actually almost exactly on the upper line that defines the mediocre range."

Good enough for me. Phillips, based on his recent performance, seems to match the first definition of mediocre.

30. McCoy Posted: November 11, 2009 at 01:19 PM (#3385092)

Which is the definition of mediocre that I am using.

31. Nothing Iffey About Griffey Posted: November 11, 2009 at 01:20 PM (#3385094)

I'd let you get away with :), "Combining all that, and he's actually almost exactly on the upper line that defines the mediocre range."

I can live with that too.. :-)

So, how much is such a player worth?

FWIW, I have no problems with the Reds trading Phillips. The Reds have a couple of guys at AAA in Valaika and Frazier that can handle second and Frazier, at least, looks like he can hit enough to be a MLB regular. Trading Phillips now will just move the timetable up a year.

32. retro-shiite Posted: November 11, 2009 at 01:24 PM (#3385099)

Actually, Freel is a Cub or something now, right?

Not that anyone cares, but the Cubs traded Freel to KC (I think) during the season. Don't know if he's still there.

Freel couldn't withstand the stiff competition to be one of Hendry's 87 crappy 2Bs...

33. Ryan Jones Posted: November 11, 2009 at 01:25 PM (#3385101)

As a side note, Phillips performance being only average for the position is at least partially because there are a surprising number of extremely capable 2B around the league right now - Utley, Cano, Hill, Pedroia, Roberts, Zobrist (and Iwamura), Lopez (both of them), Phillips, Polanco, Prado, Sanchez, that guy in Texas who's name I can't remember right now, some others I'm forgetting, and so on and so on.

Currently, second base is one of the deeper positions around the major leagues.

34. hokieneer Posted: November 11, 2009 at 01:26 PM (#3385103)

Good thing we traded for Rolen and his large contract, that way Walt has an excuse to move other players he doesn't want.

Brilliant!

35. Randy Jones Posted: November 11, 2009 at 01:27 PM (#3385104)

that guy in Texas who's name I can't remember right now

Kinsler

36. zonk Posted: November 11, 2009 at 01:27 PM (#3385106)

Phillips is one of those guys that I think gets overrated because of fantasy baseball. He's a very good roto 2B -- any player that goes 20-20 is -- but I have zero interest in him on my major league team.

edit: Actually, Freel is a Cub or something now, right? Maybe Taveras can convert to second?

Freel was well-traveled last year... Started out with the O's - traded to the Cubs for Joey Gathright, sucked as a Cub (much to my disappointment), traded for the proverbial PTBNL (whom I don't think I've seen named... quite possible the Cubs forgot about it and don't care), released by the Royals about a month later, then signed with Texas -- then released by them about 3 days after signing.

That's the Kingman-esque quadfecta!

I think he's unemployed and looks done to me... too many injuries and I believe he's also got a bit of an issue with the sauce.

37. Ryan Jones Posted: November 11, 2009 at 01:28 PM (#3385109)

that guy in Texas who's name I can't remember right now

Kinsler

Thank you. That's the guy.

38. McCoy Posted: November 11, 2009 at 01:29 PM (#3385110)

I'd say average second basemen in their post 6 year service career have value in two year contract chunks. I just don't know if 9 million dollars a year is the right amount for an average second baseman. It seems a little high for the risk a team is taking.

39. Randy Jones Posted: November 11, 2009 at 01:29 PM (#3385111)

too many injuries and I believe he's also got a bit of an issue with the sauce.

Freel is the guy with the invisible friend, right?

40. retro-shiite Posted: November 11, 2009 at 01:30 PM (#3385114)

It would probably be bad PR for the Reds to trade Phillips within the division; similar to the Jays trading Halladay to the Yanks or Bosox.

They're blatantly blackmailing fans with the possibility of putting a 90-loss team on the field instead of an 85-loss team, and they're worried about the PR fallout from dumping salary in the wrong place?

41. Teal & Black Posted: November 11, 2009 at 01:34 PM (#3385119)

Your faces are all, collectively and individually, mediocre.

42. retro-shiite Posted: November 11, 2009 at 01:37 PM (#3385126)

So's your mom. Collectively, and individually.

43. Ryan Jones Posted: November 11, 2009 at 01:38 PM (#3385128)

Your faces are all, collectively and individually, mediocre.

Given the basement dwelling nature of many regular posters, several people will probably take the above as a compliment.

44. zonk Posted: November 11, 2009 at 01:40 PM (#3385133)

Freel is the guy with the invisible friend, right?

Yes... Farly or Farny or something like that.

45. Ryan Jones Posted: November 11, 2009 at 01:43 PM (#3385137)

Yes... Farly or Farny or something like that.

Close. Farney.

46. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: November 11, 2009 at 01:47 PM (#3385143)

Given the basement dwelling nature of many regular posters, several people will probably take the above as a compliment

I'm posting from my mother's basement. She calls me her little Phantom.

47. Shooty Did Not Kill McGurk

Posted: November 11, 2009 at 01:48 PM (#3385147)

She calls me her little Phantom.

I was going to say your girlfriend does, too, but then I remembered you're a primate.

48. J. Roberts Posted: November 11, 2009 at 02:02 PM (#3385171)

Close. Farney.

Wow. I'm imagining that Farney looks exactly like the Green Gazoo, but carries a tiny little bat.

49. Shooty Did Not Kill McGurk

Posted: November 11, 2009 at 02:05 PM (#3385180)

Wow. I'm imagining that Farney looks exactly like the Green Gazoo, but carries a tiny little bat.

I imagine Farney looks exactly like Jeff Farnsworth and so caused massive confusion when Freel showed up in KC.

50. Freeballin' Posted: November 11, 2009 at 02:11 PM (#3385185)

Mets could use Phillips and Harang.

51. Randy Jones Posted: November 11, 2009 at 02:12 PM (#3385188)

I imagine Farney looks exactly like Jeff Farnsworth and so caused massive confusion when Freel showed up in KC.

Good news everyone!

Shooty still hasn't figured out the Professor's first name.

52. zonk Posted: November 11, 2009 at 02:13 PM (#3385189)

I imagine Farney looks exactly like Jeff Farnsworth and so caused massive confusion when Freel showed up in KC.

You mean Captain Tightpants... err... Kyle.

Fortunately, Freel knows the real Farney is the one that carries around his flask of Thunderbird... though, now that I think about it - so does Kyle, so maybe it was confusing.

53. Shooty Did Not Kill McGurk

Posted: November 11, 2009 at 02:13 PM (#3385190)

Shooty still hasn't figured out the Professor's first name.

I'm just never going to get it. There's a block there that must be rooted in some trauma from childhood.

54. JMN Is Convinced He Has H1N1 Every Time He Coughs Posted: November 11, 2009 at 02:32 PM (#3385224)

I'm just never going to get it. There's a block there that must be rooted in some trauma from childhood.

Kyle Farnsworth dropped you on your head.

55. Ryan Jones Posted: November 11, 2009 at 02:35 PM (#3385228)

Kyle Farnsworth dropped you on your head.

Given his rage issues, it's more likely that Farnsworth dropkicked him in the head.

56. jwb Posted: November 11, 2009 at 02:46 PM (#3385249)

Freel last played for Oklahoma. Anyone for another show tunes thread?

57. snapper Posted: November 11, 2009 at 02:48 PM (#3385252)

Freel is the guy with the invisible friend, right?

he's also got a bit of an issue with the sauce.

Somehow I'm guessing these things are not unrelated.

58. Best Dressed Chicken in Town Posted: November 11, 2009 at 02:49 PM (#3385257)

Phillips hit 276 .329 .447 for a 102 OPS+. The average 2B hit .271 .336 .416 for a 100 OPS+.

Except that positional OPS splits include pitcher batting, and players' do not.

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