Nothing like a baseball writer writing about how he doesn't know anything about a baseball team. Sure helps the credibility.

Nice to see the pressure to not show up your peers & revel in your own ignorance exists in the world of sports journalism as well as the 2nd grade classroom.

And then you've got these Red Sox. Josh Beckett? Is he Samuel's nephew? David Ortiz. I know Russ and Ramon, but David? Mike Lowell. Is that Robert's cousin? Manny Ramirez? I guess that's better than Womanny Ramirez. And don't even get me started on this Daisuke Matsuzaka guy. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't he the key grip on Kurosawa's The Seven Samurai?

Wait, there are baseball teams west of the Hudson?

Slow down on ripping Celizic. He doesn't have to recognize that Jesus is the Rockies' MVP.

And then you've got these Red Sox

I read this in Dane Cook's voice in my head.

Nice hat.

What kind of name is Celizic? Sounds like a treatment for erectile dysfunction.

Even their manager, Clint Hurdle, is named after a piece of track equipment.

which is exactly why he isn't as famous as Joe Torre or Terry Francona.

Well, now I'm glad the Dbacks didn't make the world series. The horror, the horror.

Even their manager, Clint Hurdle, is named after a piece of track equipment.

Dick Pole sounds like a pole vaulter using the western roll technique.

Best Regards

John

The Rockies do have a five-time All-Star at first base, a two-time All-Star and leading MVP candidate in left field, a three-time All-Star in the bullpen, and a leading candidate for Rookie of the Year at shortstop. You don't have to exactly be a superfan to know who these guys are.

I read this in Dane Cook's voice in my head.

Why would you allow that in your head?

Why is baseball writing getting more and more myopic? Every team that isn't from the Northeast is full of "unknowns" these days.

The NFL does not have this problem.

Well, now I'm glad the Dbacks didn't make the world series.

Sure you are...

I'm torn. On the one hand, I'm dying to see FJM rip into this. On the other, it'd be like shooting fish in a barrel for them. Not that that's stopped them before, but...

I think at this point, Celizic knows that his audience is old fogeys like himself that a) doesn't give a hoot about baseball teams created post-division era and b) would actually laugh at his crappy jokes. I will say that I had an amusing image of Josh Fogg having his own Passepartout - maybe like Pedro's Nelson de la Rosa?

I read this in Dane Cook's voice in my head.

I saw Jason Sudeikis doing a Cook "actober" parody on SNL; I had never actually seen or heard Cook himself, but Sudeikis' take was mildly funny anyway.

Then, I saw one of the "actober" things with the real Cook last night, and I was amazed by how little Sudiekis exaggerated Cook's obnoxiousness in the ads. Cook's standup act may be great, I have no idea--but those ads are pathetic.

Why is baseball writing getting more and more myopic? Every team that isn't from the Northeast is full of "unknowns" these days.

The NFL does not have this problem.

It isn't because it starts this way, the media, this as an example, makes sure it ends up this way.

Cook's standup act may be great, I have no idea

It's not great. His jokes have no punchlines.

What's the point of linking to Celizic. Hey, look! Here's this goofy old guy with a hat who doesn't get it! Let's do our little sabermetricchurch lady superioirty dance! Wouldn't we be better off if good writng was linked here more often than mailed in stuff?

AM I ASKING TOO MUCH?

BTW, I saw a Celizic book in the library yesterday. It was about 16 years old and he had the hat back then.

Now that I got that off of my chest, how well known where the Whiz Kids back in '50?

Also, no matter how often I get mad at Rep for linking stuff like this, threads like this more than make up for it.

I saw Jason Sudeikis doing a Cook "actober" parody on SNL; I had never actually seen or heard Cook himself, but Sudeikis' take was mildly funny anyway.

Then, I saw one of the "actober" things with the real Cook last night, and I was amazed by how little Sudiekis exaggerated Cook's obnoxiousness in the ads. Cook's standup act may be great, I have no idea--but those ads are pathetic.

I hadn't seen it. Clip here. It doesn't come close to matching Cook's obnoxiousness.

EWK, other than Waitkus, probably not very well known. Ashburn and Roberts were only 23.

Was Waitkus known for playing or for being shot?

I'm trying to think of some other WS teams that might not've benn well known. '65 Twins? '66 O's?

The NFL does not have this problem.

MLB is more or less dictated to by the networks, which is why we've gotten to the point where ESPN during the year is Yankees, Red Sox, Yankees, Red Sox, Cubs, Yankees, Red Sox.

In the NFL (aka The King) it's the opposite: they tell the networks how things are going to work, which is why the Denvers, Kansas Citys, and Buffalos of the league actually get shown on national television once in a while.

For being shot, I'd think.

'61 Reds?

I hadn't seen it. Clip here. It doesn't come close to matching Cook's obnoxiousness.

There's probably a player named Ramirez haha!

In the NFL (aka The King) it's the opposite: they tell the networks how things are going to work, which is why the Denvers, Kansas Citys, and Buffalos of the league actually get shown on national television once in a while

To be honest, the Kansas Citys and Buffalos actually get shown on national television once in a while these days because they get shoe-horned into national games involving Dallas or the Patriots. (To my knowledge, both of those teams have played six games, and both have had six games broadcast either in prime time or at the featured national CBS or FOX match-up.)

But I do see your point: I don't think ESPN does a second Monday night game of AZ/SF unless the NFL wants it that way.

I'd go with '44 Browns.

'61 Reds?

I just read Pennant Race. Not as good as The Long Season, but a good read. The '61 Reds were sort of like the '91 Twins or '91 Braves and a little like the Rockies: not a super young team, but a team that came together suddenly and had a few guys people knew. I think FRobinson and Brosnan himself, based on his first book, were the most famous guys on the 1961 Reds.

What is amazing about the Rockies is not that they won, but how they won. What is the closest historical parallel to a team being on the fringes of the race and going on a run like this that extended into post-season? The '14 Braves? The '69 Mets?

WRT, football TV coverage, this is a great site.

Celizek will be at the Laff Shack in White Plains, NY this Friday.

Sudeikis was actually a toned-down version of Cook - that's the sad thing. Cook's a ripe target for parody and the actober ads are terrible, but I thought the Cook bits were kind of a lost opportunity. I did like "Brandon Webb. Pyoo! Spider-Man reference." though.

Really? I think that that Taco Bell ad with the young Dennis Leary sounding guy is more annoying than actober. The only thing that I don't like about those ads is that Cook, who I never heard of before the campaign, seems to be speaking in ALLCAPS (like I did upthread.)

The only thing that I don't like about those ads is that Cook, who I never heard of before the campaign, seems to be speaking in ALLCAPS (like I did upthread.)

I think I said this before, but Dane Cook is the "Poochie" of the stand up comic world.

The only thing that I don't like about those ads is that Cook, who I never heard of before the campaign, seems to be speaking in ALLCAPS (like I did upthread.)

Cook is popular with the college crowd, I believe. Bringing him in is a pretty blatant attempt to bring in younger fans.

Cook is popular with the college crowd, I believe. Bringing him in is a pretty blatant attempt to bring in younger fans.

Ironic that he would come up in a Celizic thread.

I think FRobinson and Brosnan himself, based on his first book, were the most famous guys on the 1961 Reds.

Vada Pinson was also on that team, although he was only 23 at that time at that time. (I believe it's been discovered that he was actually a couple of years older?). Gus Bell, Wally Post and Jerry Lynch were all part-time veteran OFs who would have been known more or less.

I think the '88 Dodgers would have been pretty forgettable had their post-season not been so remarkable. Orel Hershiser and Kirk Gibson were fairly known, but not exactly household names at that point. Then you have Mike Marshall? Jeff Hamilton? Mike Davis?

The 1990 Reds seemed kinda anonymous to me, maybe I'm wrong. And I was a big fan of that team

Jerry Lynch

Lynch became famous during the year--"Lynch in a pinch."

I just read Pennant Race. Not as good as The Long Season, but a good read. The '61 Reds were sort of like the '91 Twins or '91 Braves and a little like the Rockies: not a super young team, but a team that came together suddenly and had a few guys people knew. I think FRobinson and Brosnan himself, based on his first book, were the most famous guys on the 1961 Reds.

I actually prefer Pennant Race to The Long Season, but I'm sure that's because I'm a Reds' fan, and its great to have one of their pennant-winning seasons described that way. Vada Pinson was an All-Star in both 1959 and 1960, so he was pretty well-known by 1961. The four Reds All-Stars in 1961 were Robinson, Joey Jay, Eddie Kasko(!), and Bob Purkey. With the exception of Robinson, not exactly household names in 1961.

There's a great essay in Bill James' original Historical Baseball Abstract (I'm not sure it's in the new one) that looks at the building of the team in detail. It's one of my favorite pieces by James.

Was Waitkus known for playing or for being shot?

Nope, he was the best known Soviet born ballplayer. How do we know?

In America, if you play baseball--you shoot beaver.

In Soviet Union, if you play baseball--beaver shoots you!

Best Regards

John

I wonder what the line is on the Rockies losing the world series in 4?

kidding kidding, I hope they win.

I wonder what the line is on the Rockies losing the world series in 4?

kidding kidding, I hope they win.

Part of me is hoping that the Red Sox win, because that should get a lot of dumb Red Sox Nation money flowing into Vegas to create a good opportunity.

I actually prefer Pennant Race to The Long Season, but I'm sure that's because I'm a Reds' fan

I am a Reds fan, too, but two things I like about The Long Season are that Brosnan covers spring training/off season, whereas Pennant Race starts on Opening Day, and I think the fact that Brosnan is struggling a bit, hates Solly Hemus, and gets traded, makes for a more interesting narrative POV than Brosnan as minor on-field star/known author.

The four Reds All-Stars in 1961 were Robinson, Joey Jay, Eddie Kasko(!), and Bob Purkey. With the exception of Robinson, not exactly household names in 1961

.

As you note, Brosnan himself fails to make the team, and in the book leading up to the game, he thinks he has a good shot. he is very upset about it in the book. He handles it with his usual wit, but you can tell he wanted it pretty bad.

Brosnan is 77 or 78 now. He was honored, along with Bill James, at the recent "Hall of The Immortals" induction but apparently missed the ceremony due to being in a fall. I keep hoping that Brosnan will write something or be interviewed one day, and it will get linked. I have thought about trying to email him myself if I could get contact info (although he makes disparaging references to fan mail in both books).

What is the closest historical parallel to a team being on the fringes of the race and going on a run like this that extended into post-season? The '14 Braves? The '69 Mets?

Not really. The 1914 Braves were well into the race by mid-August, and the Mets were within 2 1/2 games on Labor Day.

-- MWE

Not really.

Right, that is why I said "closest." Has there really ever been anything like the 2007 Rockies?

On September 3, 1964, the Cardinals were in fourth place, seven and a half behind the Phillies and also trailing the Reds and Giants. They didn't get as hot as the Rockies, but they closed 20-9 down the stretch, and went on to win the World Series.

On September 3, 1964, the Cardinals were in fourth place, seven and a half behind the Phillies and also trailing the Reds and Giants. They didn't get as hot as the Rockies, but they closed 20-9 down the stretch, and went on to win the World Series.

I thought of the 1964 Cardinals. That may be the closesst, with the Mets (kind of) playing the role of the 1964 Phillies.

The article wasn't half bad, actually. Everything but the portion quoted runs pretty contrary to...the part quoted, I guess. For example:

The team payroll is around $54 million — one of the bottom five in the game, and if you take away Helton’s $16 million, the other 24 guys are making a combined $38 million, which isn’t enough to pay the left side of the Yankee’s infield.

That’s another reason we don’t know much about them — their salaries. We live in a society that equates income with importance — what other explanation is there for the national obsession with Donald Trump and Britney Spears?

[...]

None of that should diminish what they’ve accomplished or lessen the luster of the terrific crop of kids the team’s management has assembled. In an ideal world, which is one in which people are celebrated for the accomplishments and not their bank accounts, their presence in the playoffs would swell the national television audience instead of shrinking it.

Go ahead and ignore them if you can’t be bothered to get to know who they are. Then sneer at the ratings they bring to the World Series, if that’s how you get your jollies.

I think the '88 Dodgers would have been pretty forgettable had their post-season not been so remarkable. Orel Hershiser and Kirk Gibson were fairly known, but not exactly household names at that point. Then you have Mike Marshall? Jeff Hamilton? Mike Davis?


I think Gibson was a household name. If Hershiser hadn't been one before the season (doubtful), he certainly was by the time the playoffs started. Everyone knew Lasorda. Steve Sax was well-known, so was Guerrero. Alfredo Griffin had been around for a while. Jesus, Fernando Valenzuela! I doubt any Dodger team could really be anonymous, but this one definitely does not qualify.

I'll bet the current Dodger team is fairly anonymous to casual east coast AL fans. Jeff Kent is probably their best known player, and he's going to wind up as the Bobby Grich of our generation.

I'll bet the current Dodger team is fairly anonymous to casual east coast AL fans. Jeff Kent is probably their best known player, and he's going to wind up as the Bobby Grich of our generation.

Yeah, their whole rotation is pretty anonymous. In fact, I don't even know who was in their rotation at the end of the season besides Brett Tomko. Chad Billingsley?

Russell Martin is pretty famous, though. There was a Sports Illustrated feature article about him. Or at least he will be after one more All-Star appearance.

Well, now I'm glad the Dbacks didn't make the world series.

Petty as it is, I was sort of rooting for the Dbacks just so not every game WS would be played in 40* weather.

I'll bet the current Dodger team is fairly anonymous to casual east coast AL fans.

Yeah, after I posted I realized that they kind of are. But I still say that the '88 edition was certainly not.

What is amazing about the Rockies is not that they won, but how they won. What is the closest historical parallel to a team being on the fringes of the race and going on a run like this that extended into post-season? The '14 Braves? The '69 Mets?

The 1978 Yankees spent most of the season behind the Red Sox, pulling ahead September 13 and never looking back thereafter, going 14-6 in their last 20; they beat the Dodgers in six, including a comeback after losing the first two at Dodger Stadium.

The 1976 Reds swept their first seven games in the postseason, the only team to do so IIRC.

Petty as it is, I was sort of rooting for the Dbacks just so not every game WS would be played in 40* weather.

Imagine snow delays occurring in early November World Series games played between either of Cleveland/Boston and Colorado.

Russell Martin is pretty famous, though. There was a Sports Illustrated feature article about him. Or at least he will be after one more All-Star appearance.

Omar Minaya can hardly wait for him to become a free agent!

Yeah, their whole rotation is pretty anonymous. In fact, I don't even know who was in their rotation at the end of the season besides Brett Tomko. Chad Billingsley?

Tomko was in the Padres' rotation by the end of the year.

The Dodgers rotation was
Brad Penny - who had won 2 world series games for the Marlins a few years back.
Derek Lowe - who had won the clinching game for all three series the year the Red Sox won the World Series.
Chad Billingsley - unknown for those who don't pay attention to top prospects.
David Wells - threw a perfect game for the Yankees a few years back
Various dreck alternating in the fifth spot.

Not unknown, at least. The '88 Dodgers were known mainly for Sax (and his throwing disease), Gibson, and Hershiser (who became known for the consecutive shutout innings record that season). I don't know if any of them coming into the season was as well known as Helton before this season.

Wow, I forgot about Brad Penny and Derek Lowe, who have a mere four All-Star appearances between them. I had way too much coffee this afternoon.

And I thought Tomko was with the Padres most of the season and then switched to the Dodgers, but Wells was vice versa. This was exactly wrong as well.

Brad Penny - who had won 2 world series games for the Marlins a few years back.

Shouldn't that read:

Brad Penny - who dated Alyssa Milano.

Right, that is why I said "closest." Has there really ever been anything like the 2007 Rockies?

'35 and '38 Cubs?

The former was in third place, 2.5 out on Sep 4, and didn't lose again until after they clinched.

The latter was in third, 7 games out on Sep 4, and went 21-5 the rest of the way to win by 2.

Brad Penny - who dated Alyssa Milano.

Couldn't that describe half the pitchers in MLB?

I kid. At least she has the taste to be a Dodger fan.