This is idiotic.

Why? Is he bad or is the bullpen terrible?

Hey, I submitted this too.

For non-Phillies fans, the best way to read the article is as follows:
- Replace "Myers" with the name of your team's ace
- Replace "Lieber" with the name of your team's sixth starter
- Replace "Manuel" with "Doc Rivers"

Hey, I submitted this too.

For non-Phillies fans, the best way to read the article is as follows:
- Replace "Myers" with the name of your team's ace
- Replace "Lieber" with the name of your team's sixth starter
- Replace "Manuel" with "Doc Rivers"

This is the equivalent of Costanza dragging the Yankee championship trophy around the parking lot. Manuel is begging to be fired.

This is the stupidest thing I've seen a team do in a loooooong time.

I know I've been corrected on this 5 times, but how could *this* Manual not be black?

The only way this could be a good move is if Myers breaks Mike Marshall's season records for relief innings and relief appearances. Somehow though I don't think the plan is for him to spread his annual 200 above-average innings between 120 games.

Hopefully this is just to muddy the waters before we trade Jon Lieber for Damaso Marte and Jason Bay.

Non-hopefully, this could be a stalking horse for a chronic case of tendinitis or something, and Myers will return to the rotation in three weeks but never go more than 5 innings in a start.

DEATH WHERE IS THY STING?!

Farnsworth to Philadelphia for Myers!

To go into further detail, I wanted to make the point that WTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTWFWTFWTFWTFWTF W T F

W
T
F

In other news, Ryan Howard is going to play catcher and Cole Hamels is going to play LF.

Seriously, though... I suppose if this only lasts a week or so it might be ok. Also, it may allow me to swindle the guy in my fantasy league who has Myers and is in last place.

I like this comment for the RotoWorld blurb:
"Short of turning Ryan Howard into a shortstop and benching Jimmy Rollins, we can't think of anything else the Phillies could have done to better sabotage their chances for this year."

Perhaps his wife's restraining order includes the first 6 innings.

Also, it may allow me to swindle the guy in my fantasy league who has Myers and is in last place.

This is what the other GMs are saying about Gillick.

As a Braves fan, I'm happy. As a Myers fantasy owner, I'm angry.

What a world we live in.

The Phillies are dumb.

The only possible explanation I can think of is that Gordon is about to go on the DL for a long time.

That wouldn't change that it's still a dumb move, but would maybe move it from "so inexplicably dumb I can't believe ownership and the GM let it happen" to just "really dumb and something we should expect from Grady F'in Little's former bench coach"

Managers who sabotage their teams for $1000, please, Alex.

The funny thing is that the Phils will likely get better, although not because of this move. I imagine they'll start playing to their talent soon enough, and either the Phils or the local media will (mistakenly) point to this move as the reason.

Myers will be moved back into the rotation as soon as somebody gets hurt -- and how long can that take?

This is just the latest domino to fall started by the moronic signing of Adam Eaton.

This is just the latest domino to fall started by the moronic signing of Adam Eaton.

Wait. Wait. Blaming this on the Eaton signing is wrong. A bad signing does not force a manager to make a completely inexplicable, team-hurting move with his rotation. Heck, the move is so off kilter, I wouldn't be surprised if Manuel did it even it meant installing a scrub in the starting rotation. That wouldn't make much sense, but then again neither does this.

If you're looking for an off-season signing that spurred it on, look at Gillick's decision to assemble the SuperFriends' Ex-Managers League of Justice on the bench. Clearly Manuel's feeling the heat.

He had two straight bad starts. That's it. Yeah, they've been terrible but this is insane.

On the bright side, I feel much better in my analysis of Charlie Manuel's abilities as a manager thanks to this.

It's punishment for slapping his wife around in the parking lot.

Wait. Wait. Blaming this on the Eaton signing is wrong. A bad signing does not force a manager to make a completely inexplicable, team-hurting move with his rotation.

Of course it's wrong, but it might be right. Here are some facts (or what might be thought of as facts by Phillies management):
Because of signing Eaton, the Phillies have six starting pitchers;
The newest "big-name" free agent acquisition and the just-extended 43-year-old pitcher cannot be relegated to the bullpen, or the Phillies might frighten off future free agents;
The Phillies' bullpen needs some help, and clearly neither Jon Lieber nor the available youngsters are up to the task;
Lieber hates pitching from the pen, and isn't good at it;
Brett Myers has had two straight bad starts, and is obviously unraveling.

Voila! Swapping Myers and Lieber fixes two problems: it makes Myers better (because struggling starters always do better out of the pen), thus helping the rotation (addition by subtraction), and the bullpen (regular addition), and it makes Lieber better (because old pitchers who can't cut it as relievers should be starters), helping the bullpen and rotation.

Or something.

Not signing Eaton in the first place doesn't necessarily make the team any better right now, but it couldn't possibly have hurt. Lieber would have started the season as a starter (well, he would have but for his minor injury late in ST), and hopefully would have performed better in his accustomed role as starting pitcher. The bullpen could hardly be worse, and while this wouldn't fix Myers, that assumes that he really needs to be fixed in the first place. He's struggling with control a little, but the nasty Northeast weather might have something to do with it.

I think the Phillies are going to do this for just a little while until they can trade Lieber for relief pitching.

Let's see here, the Phillies don't have six starting pitchers because they signed Eaton, they have six starting pitchers because they traded for Freddy Garcia, which took place after they signed Eaton. I think that probably frightened off the free agents just as much as your Eaton-to-the-bullpen scenario, because it told pitchers that if you sign with the Phillies to round out their rotation to 5 starters, they will one week later add another pitcher to the rotation to make your status tenuous.

So given that that happened anyway, why not move Eaton to the damn bullpen?

It still seems odd that they didn't trade Lieber for relievers, if this is the sort of drastic thing they thought was necessary to "solve" the 6-pitcher problem. Hopefully this is just for a little while, to make Myers happy by letting him blow people away for two innings at a time and get his ERA under five, and then they trade Lieber for Damaso Marte and Neil Walker.

Um, Cholly, let go of the bottle and step away from the dugout...

The over/under on Jimy Williams taking the reins just dropped to 2 days.

I bet Manuel and Gillick were sitting around reading some old Gammons articles where he was shouting that Harden was going to be turned into a closer any day now and looked at each other with that special twinkle in their eye.

Hell yeah, Nats finishing fourth this year.

Just let me know when the Phillies firesale starts.

I can't believe there were only two wife-beating comments!! This "man" does not deserve to play pro ball. He hits girls. #####. If I beat my wife publicly hours after finishing my job I would have been fired. Any man that puts a hand on a woman is not a man. I struggled a lot with this with Puckett. I idolized him as a kid, but upon learning that he hit girls I found it hard to hold onto my childhood hero.

Any man that puts a hand on a woman is not a man.

I can tell from your context that you don't mean that literally (which would be biologically crazy, obviously), but it's still funny.

Vaux, I'm disapponted. I was expecting more vitriol directed towards the Phillies.

Sorry, Russlan... I'm in a pretty detached mood right now. After all: Brett Myers moved to the bullpen, Felix Hernandez out with elbow tightness, and Mark Buerhle pitches a no-hitter, all on the same day! And I've been working on a philosophy paper.

But,

######## Phillies!

This move is really too dumb for words. It's the dumbest move that's been made in MLB since the seventies, most likely. I'm almost too amazed to get angry about it.

That's what I'm talking about Vaux.

Did nobody notice Myers' 9.39 era on the season? Granted, with what he's done the last two years, three terrible starts shouldn't bench him. But 9.39 is bad.

Still a bad move most likely, but understandable in a perspective of overreaction.

Everyone goes so crazy early in the season. Guess what? It's still April. Every thought you've ever had about how players and teams are playing right now, the answer is: It's still April. Having 6 pitchers is not a bad problem too have. Having 2 is. Though stupid, the subtext for this is its a very temporary thing until Myers starts doing well (it's still April!), or until they trade Lieber. Everyone is saying how the Phillies are going to do so bad, I just don't get it, It's still April!

I think this is a pretty good outside the box move for the Phillies.

ok, glad to see I'm not the only person that thinks this reeks of Manuel trying to get fired. As of right now this guy belongs nowhere near a major league roster.

The Artist former known as Gagne Posted: April 19, 2007 at 01:57 AM (#2339064)

Did nobody notice Myers' 9.39 era on the season? Granted, with what he's done the last two years, three terrible starts shouldn't bench him. But 9.39 is bad.

is it as bad as albert pujols having a .184 batting average at this point in time in the season? would moving him to the 8th spot in the lineup make sense?

"Any man that puts a hand on a woman is not a man'


Doesn't that then make it OK?

Doesn't that then make it OK?

I like how you think!

(goes off to find a woman to beat)

Sorry guys, I can't even justify this one.

Of course it's wrong, but it might be right.

Didn't this very statement cost John Kerry the 2004 election? He was talking, of course, about the 2007 Phillies idiocy.

No offense those of you who are diminishing the stupidity of this move, but you're rationale is stupid. If "it's early in the season" enough to move your #1 to the set up role, why isn't it "early in the season" enough to let him work out his problems in his predefined role? How does putting him into the setup role (even if temporarily) help him work on the very different routine of starting? How can you be at all confident the move (and the associated changes in ritual and preparation) is not much more harmful?

The move is just indefensible, that's all. If your scouting and his prior performance lead you to believe he's your #1 starter, then you let him work out his problems there. If you were wrong about that, you've got enormous personnel evaluation problems. This is an incredibly risky and stupid move.

Is Charlie the biggest idiot ever?

The funny thing is that Pujols has been the second-best offensive player on the Cardinals this season. I'm still confused why Skip Schumaker is on the team over John Rodriguez. Or why they felt that they didn't need to upgrade over the dried-up husk of Preston Wilson's career.

I just checked Myers' peripherals, and his 9.39 ERA just looks like some extraordinary bad luck to me.

He's got 20 Ks (against 8 BBs) in 16.3 innings - he's given up 5 HRs (which sure ain't good, but then, considering his ballpark and his past - wouldn't expect him to be especially stingy with the gopher balls anyway... Hell, Robin Roberts wasn't).

I mean - if Myers' performance warrants bullpen exile, then what's Lou Pinella waiting for with Big Z and his 16/16 K/BB numbers?

Is this one of those silly "send everyone a message moves"?

Wouldn't it be just as effective to kick Ryan Howard in the crotch or something?

When I saw the headline I thought the Phillies had coaxed Randy Myers out of retirement.

The obvious solution is trading Pat Burrell for Jay Gibbons and Todd Williams.

I just checked Myers' peripherals, and his 9.39 ERA just looks like some extraordinary bad luck to me.

He's got 20 Ks (against 8 BBs) in 16.3 innings - he's given up 5 HRs (which sure ain't good, but then, considering his ballpark and his past - wouldn't expect him to be especially stingy with the gopher balls anyway... Hell, Robin Roberts wasn't).

It ain't the peripherals, it's the HR that are killing him. Last night I figured his H% was about .270. That ain't too bad. Giving up a homer every 15 batters? Yeah, that'll raise the ERA.

And to be fair, it's the 6 doubles and a triple on top of that as well. Yoikes. 12 extra base hits in 75 batters? Yeah, that ERA ain't bad luck.

Still, the question is: should the Phillies expect Myers to keep allowing XBH at this rate or not? Hell no. It's a crummy start to the season from the team's ace pitcher from the last two seasons. Let's not go nuts here.

And to be fair, it's the 6 doubles and a triple on top of that as well. Yoikes. 12 extra base hits in 75 batters? Yeah, that ERA ain't bad luck.

But over just 3 starts? I think you could chalk it up to bad luck. I haven't seen much of Myers this season but highlights/errr..lowlights - but considering his K rate is actually above his career mark, I have to believe it's just a matter of one of those fluky periods where every bad pitch gets nailed --- over the course of a season, I have to believe those bad pitches won't all end up in the bleachers or bouncing off a wall in the alleys.

Wouldn't it be just as effective to kick Ryan Howard in the crotch or something?

A Japanese pitching coach actually went up to the mound and grabbed a pitcher by the balls here in Taiwan, and then questioned his manhood.

He then struck out the side.

Hopefully this is just for a little while, to make Myers happy by letting him blow people away for two innings at a time and get his ERA under five, and then they trade Lieber for Damaso Marte and Neil Walker.

That's definitely the best case scenario, but Myers's comments repeatedly hit on the fact that he didn't want to be jerked around between the two roles, specifically citing Madson's troubles last year. I think this switch may be for the entire season.

Someone mentioned in the Manuel-Eskin thread how pathetic it was that Manuel ended their fight by desperately yelling, "You'll see, we'll win!" or some such thing. Pathetic as it was, it made me think that he understood not to panic -- that the bullpen couldn't stay this bad, Howard and Utley couldn't stay this ordinary, you wouldn't continue to lose every Myers start, you wouldn't continue to hit .083 (or whatever) with RISP. Then this. Ugh.

A Japanese pitching coach actually went up to the mound and grabbed a pitcher by the balls here in Taiwan, and then questioned his manhood.

He then struck out the side.

PLEASE! Tell me there's a YouTube clip of this somewhere.

"He then struck out the side."

The pitching coach or the pitcher?

Wouldn't it be just as effective to kick Ryan Howard in the crotch or something?

Good thinking!!! Let the crotch kicking of Ryan Howard commence.

My guess in trying to make the inexplicable appear less so is the medical staff has more information on Tom Gordon's condition and are moving Myers, pre-emptively, to the bullpen to get him accustomed to pitching more frequently in anticipation of a Gordon breakdown.

"A Japanese pitching coach actually went up to the mound and grabbed a pitcher by the balls here in Taiwan, and then questioned his manhood."


Ummm, if you're grabbing another dudes balls, the only manhood you should be questioning is your own.

This thread from early March quotes Myers as saying he "wouldn't mind" moving to the pen. If he wouldn't mind, and the other five guys would mind... maybe, under the Papelbon Principle that a guy is best off pitching in the role he likes more, that's where you put him.

Now, I'm not saying this actually makes sense. Although I can see catering to player preferences on calls that are pretty close either way, I don't think you can take it to the extent that you cost yourself as many games as this decision will. But, maybe Manuel's thinking is as simple as this, that Lieber would prefer to start and Myers doesn't have a preference.