User Comments, Suggestions, or Complaints | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertising
Buy MLB playoff tickets, plus 2011 World Series, 2011 ALCS tickets and NLCS game tickets. We also have Texas Rangers playoff schedule, tickets to Red Sox games and Yankees game tickets. Plus, buy Phillies baseball tickets, Tigers playoff tickets and the biggies like ALDS baseball tickets and 2011 NLDS tickets. |
Demarini, Easton and TPX Baseball Bats
|
AllianceTickets.com has cheap MLB Tickets. Get all your Colorado Rockies Tickets, Seattle Mariners Tickets, San Francisco Giants Tickets and all your favorite baseball tickets here. We also carry cheap Denver Broncos Tickets, Seattle Seahawks Tickets and Denver Nuggets Tickets. |
Page rendered in 1.5529 seconds
40 querie(s) executed
Reader Comments and Retorts
Go to end of page
Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.
How good a deal this is for the Sox probably depends on how well Quentin bounces back from his shoulder surgery.
I do like that the White Sox are getting young talent, no matter how questionable.
The interesting question now is what the White Sox do with Josh Fields and Joe Crede.
Carter's a good get for Arizona. He's still a long ways from the bigs but he's got plus plus power. Unfortunately, he's a first-baseman who doesn't figure to move off that spot.
Arizona fans -- how much should we take from his (Quentin's) poor 2007 (injury plagued) campaign? I understand he had shoulder issues but I wasn't aware to the extent.
Hey, the truth about this trade is out there.
No Vin Scully/Mark Mulder jokes?
Maybe the team they are talking with wants Carter instead.
How about from the D-backs official site:
but what would really be the point?
He looks to be a solid offensive prospect. How's his defense?
Poor, reportedly.
According to the observers Baseball America talked to, "He has below-average speed and hands, so his bat will have to carry him." Still, that bat looks more potent in the long run than Quentin's. Same BA report threw out a Jermaine Dye comp -- minus the defensive value, apparently.
He had a poor approach at the plate and couldn't lay off sliders low and away. Last year he couldn't even hit fastballs right down the middle, either. He's swinging for the fences. The injury played a part, sure, but he didn't ever make adjustments. He's a helluva defender, though.
No points for guessing Carter's race. Isn't it helpful that scout comparisons are always controlled by race, since it's obviously so much more important than things like foot speed or defensive value, or even position?
They still don't. Carter might help but he's a long ways away.
Probably a fair deal. I think Carter's three full seasons in the minors away from contributing to the MLB squad. Then again, Quentin's value is at a nadir, so this deal might be a fair one for both sides.
EDIT: I still hope the White Sox add Brian Barton to play CF, or Andruw Jones, but this deal at least fills LF.
Oh, and who gets traded, Crede or Fields?
But it still hurts to see a guy I had such high hopes for end up being traded like this. At this point, I don't know ANY knowledgeable D Backs fans that really thought that Quentin would have much trade value, especially after the Eric Byrnes extension. The moment that deal was signed, we knew Quentin was gone for 10 cents on the dollar.
I think the only way that Fields goes is part of a package in a big deal, such as to the Marlins for Cabrera. While that doesn't seem likely, I would imagine Crede goes to one of the Giants, Angels or Dodgers.
Crede for an innings eater or an OF would make a lot of sense.
Lowry and his 5BB/9 and mild fly ball tendencies probably have negative value at the BOB. Carter almost certainly has much more long-term value for the snakes.
I've got to think Crede's trade value would be very low right about now. I doubt the Sox can get major-league talent for Crede at this point.
Williams will be at least tempted to deal Fields, as he could get a lot more in return.
Towards the end of the year Fields was playing more outfield, and the zone stats say he was a pretty bad 3B. Anyone think Quentin could play center?
Man, I can't even get through that with a straight face.
His HBP rate was cut in half in the majors. No need to throw inside.
If Carlos Quentin turns out to be lame (a la Mike Sirotka), Gord Ash will re-emerge and scream, "Karma finally bit you in the arse, Kenny."
In his major-league PAs with 1-2 and 0-2 counts (100 instances), he's been HBP 11 times (roughly 11.0000% of them), meaning he's (temporarily at least) figured out a way to get on base on the worst batter's counts. His OB for at bats resolved on those counts is positively Youkilis-ian (¿Youki-Loosey-Goosey?). At some point, pitchers will become probabalistically less likely to jam him on those counts so they can claim back that edge, which will be, of course, what Quentin's hoping for...more pitches he has a chance to get the fat part of the bat on.
From what I can tell, no other contemporary batter is using this technique, certainly not Biggio or Utley (not that Utley needs any weird tricks), though perhaps Ryan Garko or David DeJesus.
Smart ballplayers tend to outlast average-intel players of the same talent, because they diversify their toolkit. Quentin *could* end up with a Gary Roenicke or John Lowenstein kind of career.
And Chris Carter will show up overweight, act like a jackass, miss half the season, and then leave town?
His minor league stats don't bear out what some of the D'Back fans are saying, though. I'm not doubting that he looked bad last year, mind you, but in 2006 he was fine in his cup-of-coffee with Arizona (115 OPS+) and it's not like he struck out at a terrible rate in the minors (187 Ks in 1330+ at-bats).
LHP Heath Phillips DFA'ed to make room on the White Sox 40-man.
After a young player is traded, the fans goto one of two reactions:
1) He's a future HOF player and the team was stupid to trade him (see Milledge)
2) He sucks and can't play. We're lucky to get anything back for him. (See Quentin)
Williams has already stated publicly that Fields won't play left. Also, BPro said about Quentin that he was a good defender but probably wasn't fast enough to play center.
Milledge is two years younger than Quentin, is better than Quentin, is healthier than Quentin, can play defense in CF better than Quentin, has a higher ceiling than Quentin... and I'd much rather have Chris Carter, 1b, than Schndeider and Church. 'Nuff said.
I'd grade him about a B (using the Sickel's scale); he was probably the Sox second- or third-best prospect, behind Gio but around Fautino and Sweeney.
I'll reserve judgement on this deal until we see what happens with Crede and Fields. However, I don't like what I'm hearing about Quentin's swing on this board, and that injury certainly won't make those problems disappear. And while Quentin has put up great minor league numbers, they've mostly come in ridulously hitter-friendly parks/leagues.
Not only that, but Brandon Webb will tear his tricep and Chris Carter will rip him for being soft and not pitching through it.
Boy, that Sirotka trade was a bad one for all teams concerned. No one came away from that debacle happy. At least the Pirates were glad they traded Todd Ritchie.
He should land in the NL.
His minor league stats don't bear out what some of the D'Back fans are saying, though. I'm not doubting that he looked bad last year, mind you, but in 2006 he was fine in his cup-of-coffee with Arizona (115 OPS+) and it's not like he struck out at a terrible rate in the minors (187 Ks in 1330+ at-bats).
Take at close look at the pitch data summary at baseball reference. It fully supports what we are reporting from our observations. I can't reconcile what he was doing at the major league level with his minor league record either. But the fact is he had extremely poor discipline in his two partial seasons.
As far as his 115 OPS+ in 2006 is concerned, he went 6 for 16 with 4 homers and 2 walks in his first 18 major league PA's. Then they stopped throwing him strikes. He had a .784 OPS the rest of the way, so he wasn't terrible, and I certainly believe he can and will be a better hitter than his 2007 numbers. But the reports of what he was doing in 2007 are accurate. Trust me.
Personally, I called for the D backs to send Upton back to AAA, and start Quentin in RF in 2008, HERE IN THIS THREAD as I figured that could rehabilitate his trade value, and I believe Upton needs another year in the minors anyway. No need to burn UPTON'S clock. (I'd rather have him for age 26 season than age 20). But clearly the guys running the show over there don't agree. Being as they have been doing a pretty good job, I think I'll have to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Well, if not for the Milledge deal, they could've at least dealt Quentin for Church and Schneider.
The other things about Quentin was that AZ coaches had no clue what to do with him. And they tried. They could see the talent he had, they could see the minor league track record, they could see the athleticism, the power... but they could also see his struggles, and there was nothing they could do to help him adjust, because Quentin was just lost in his world. I think at the end the Dbacks coaches just gave up on him. I've spoken with a couple of people who've seen him in person, and Quentin is his worst enemy in his struggles. When he's not doing well, he takes it so personally, he's so hard on himself, that it's throwing him into a vicious cycle of self-doubt and panic and struggle and futility. More than anything, Quentin needs a team where he will be guaranteed a starting spot and playing time, no matter what, so he can fight his own demons. Unfortunately, that wasn't going to happen in Arizona...
Overall, the Dbacks had to trade Quentin. He had no future in AZ, and they weren't going to bring him back with the team next spring training. It wasn't going to help him any, it wasn't going to help Upton any, and it certainly wasn't going to help his trade value any. The DBacks would've loved to get some pitching for him, but obviously there was no solid pitching to be acquired for Quentin, so the Dbacks did the second best thing--acquire a cheap, young player with relatively high upside at a position where they may need him in 2-3 years, and move on. A starter was really AZ's main need going into 2008, and Quentin apparently wasn't going to help them get a starter. GIven that they had to trade him, Chris Carter is a perfectly acceptable return for him...
And I wish Q all the best in CHA. I'd have liked to see him succeed in AZ, but alas...
That's now three trades between Byrnes and Williams in the past 24 (?) months. I'll certainly keep a close eye on Carter, just as I've done with Cunningham and Young.
Church is a good player. .887 OPS against righties the last two seasons with good defense in a corner spot, in a bad hitters park. And he is under contract for 4 more years. The Mets got took in that trade but that doesn't mean Church has no value. Church is a much more valuable commodity than Quentin or Carter.
Anyone else think that this scenario is likely?
Dodgers sign Aaron Rowand. Dodgers trade Juan Pierre to the White Sox for Joe Crede.
I have this sinking feeling . . .
The stats certainly say they were comparable.
Chris Young: 7.7% and 7.0% first two mlb seasons
Carlos Quentin: 7.9% and 7.2% first two mlb seasons.
edit: the stats are walk rates.
Gah, I'd hate that. The Sox already have Juan Pierre on their team with Jerry Owens. I've got dreams of Fukodome or Jones, unlikely as they may be...
There's a very good chance that Jerry Owens is the Opening Day center fielder.
Crede should be dealt reasonably quickly (per Kenny saying Fields isn't going to be moved off of third yet, despite his struggles) so Quentin will have the spot comfortably, unless he comes out of the gate with an absolutely terrible spring and April.
I think so too.
If Fields isn't dealt and continues to struggle at 3B, I wouldn't be surprised if he gets moved to first base for the 2009 season. Jim Thome's contract is up after this season, and I could see Konerko becoming the DH at that point.
Or maybe Konerko gets dealt this winter, the Sox keep Crede, and Fields becomes the first baseman now? Nah...
I know, me too. You know this, Keith, but if you really want to see how bad Owens is compare his minor league numbers (where Owens was much older than Pierre) to Pierre's. Juan blows Jerry away as a hitter and a base stealer and certainly as a fielder. Owens' arm is a bit better, I guess. Pierre just sort of fits in with Kenny occasional predilection to acquire guys based on their spot in the order (he's a good #2 hitter, KW said of Orlando Cabrera) rather then on their real value.
Jones ain't happening. Fukudome might, but I think the chances are very small. More likely is a Mike Cameron signing or a trade for Coco Crisp.
The power is definitely there. I'm not saying he'll be Richie Sexson, but I think he'll hit enough to be an adequate 1B.
They don't seem to have anyone better for LF.
If Crede is healthy, he's solid. Great defense and lots of power...and he's in a contract year.
The "if healthy" is a big if, though. The fact that he's in a contract year makes it so that you're only trading for what he can give you in 2008. Plus, he's a Boras client, so chances are that he won't give a discount to whomever he's traded to. If the White Sox trade him, they won't get more than a non-prospect or two for him.
Four trades. Javy for Young/El Duque/Vizcaino; Cintron for Bajenaru; Richar for Cunningham; Quentin for Carter. I have a feeling Kenny W and Josh Byrnes like each other.
Right now, the job appears to be Richar's to lose, with Uribe and Ozuna backing him up if he falters.
Carter for Quentin
Cunningham for Richar
Young for Vazquez
Bajeneru for Cintron
Am I missing anything? The White Sox and the D-Backs are turning out to be very good trading partners.
I also wonder if this has anything to do with the fact that the two respective owners are very close. They also shared a spring training facility the last few years if I'm not mistaken.
The stats certainly say they were comparable.
Chris Young: 7.7% and 7.0% first two mlb seasons
Carlos Quentin: 7.9% and 7.2% first two mlb seasons.
edit: the stats are walk rates.
Again, there is more to plate discipline than just walk percentage. Please go study the pitch data summary at baseball reference. I really don't feel like typing it all. But if you will take 5 minutes to study each of these players, and compare that to league avg, you will see a difference. You will see in the numbers a clear profile the depicts Quentin as an extreme free swinger. Thats what I SAW when he played, and thats what the pitch data shows. Y'all can discount the observations of someone who saw almost every one of his plate appearances, AND lives and dies with all the same numbers you guys do.....or not.
EDIT: I'm not trying to say that I don't think Quentin will get better. I realize you can't discount his minor league success and write him off at age 25 after 350 major league PA's. Thats why I proposed giving him another shot in 2008 and keeping Upton in AAA, which basically NOBODY agrees with. But I'm not going to sugar coat it. Quentin REALLY REALLY sucked in 2007....it was more than just difficulty with adjustments. Maybe it was the shoulder and the reluctance to check swing...Levski and I discussed that at length during the season. But who the heck knows.
Sounds a lot like Paul Konerko.
I like the deal for the White Sox. I think Quentin should be the expected left fielder and maybe he can show some of the promise of his minor league track record if given a full shot to play regularly.
For the D-backs, they're at least getting a player with some upside in return for a guy that they had no place for.
Dodgers sign Aaron Rowand. Dodgers trade Juan Pierre to the White Sox for Joe Crede.
I have this sinking feeling . . .
I thought the same thing, but KW would insist the Dodgers pay half the contract. At that price, I'd do it if I were KW, because that puts Pierre closer to his actual value and is re-tradeable at that price. But I still think he'll try for Willy Taveras first.
What about bench players? Any sinking feelings there? Mine are Mackowiak, Bradley, Norton...
They're actually planning on keeping Uribe around?
No, he's signed through next season at a little more than $4 million. That isn't an outrageous amount but for a bench player it's a pretty big waste of cash. That being said, if nobody's offering anything more than a bag of balls, the Sox could hang onto him and hope (?) that a contending team loses their SS at some point during the year. Mind you I'm not saying the Kenny should be expecting an A prospect in return for Uribe, but I'd imagine that if someone had already offered even a decent prospect or reliever, the Sox would've made the move.
It seems to me that with RHed hitters Dye and Quentin in the corners, the Sox could really use someone like Cliff Floyd or Brad Wilkerson.
I see where you're going, but neither of those guys can even fake a CFer at this point, and I doubt they acquired Quentin to be a platoon player. We need to find out whether the Sox have gotten over the 'stigma' (?) that they have to have a "leadoff man". Ideally you'd see the Sox go after the best CFer they could find -- be it Fukodome, Jones, Cameron or Bradley -- and just go with a leadoff man based on who's on the mound or who's hot with the bat. But I don't know that they're past the thinking that their leadoff man has to steal 25 bases to hit first.
Yes, Q did become undisciplined in 2007. With the torn labrum and frayed rotator cuff, it became difficult, if not painful, to check his swing. So yes, it looked like he was swinging at pitches "3 feet off the plate".....he couldn't check his swing! The frustration just seem to build from there. However, he never used his injury as an excuse.
Levski and Shoe gave you all the negatives about him. Well, here are some positives:
He has a great work ethic; he'll play all out, putting in that extra effort; and when he's hits, he'll hit the ball hard and well. He tracks the ball well, and takes good routes, and has a great arm. He also played a decent centerfielder in 2005 while in AAA (much to everyone's surprise).
Maybe a change of scenery is what he needs.
I completely agree. He'll be a far above average defender in LF in Chicago. And I've always felt he just needed an organization to give him a starting job and let him produce. I believe he will. Simply, as stated, he had no future in AZ, love or hate the Eric Byrnes extension.
All of this is good in theory....but again, for the final time, I beg you guys to go look at baseball reference.com pitch data
In 2006, Quentin swung at the first pitch he saw 46% of the time, vs. major league avg of 28%.
He saw 3.22 pitches per plate appearance in 2006, vs. league avg of 3.76
His percentage of strikes looking was 14% vs, a league avg of 27%, his percentage of strikes swinging was 22% vs. a league avg of 14%
And this is 2006 folks, before he got hurt. So the notion that he couldn't/wouldn't check his swing after the shoulder injury is nice, but it's not really all that true.....he came up hacking at the first pitch, and ANY pitch, and never changed his approach. He got better results with that approach in 2006, but it caught up with him in 2007. The scouts had his number, and the pitchers executed the plan, and he was an easy out. If he doesn't change, he'll still be an easy out.
Fairy tales are nice. Reality is a biatch
Also, while his routes are great, and he is definitely a plus defender, his arm is overrated. I was actually shocked by how many weak and off line throws he had last year. I was not the only one to make that observation.
You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.
<< Back to main