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Friday, June 27, 2008

Newsday: Eventful day ends at Shea as teams split blowouts

The Yankees got even in the nightcap at Shea Stadium behind an even more unlikely star. Sidney Ponson, called up before the game for his second stint in pinstripes, outdueled Pedro Martinez in a 9-0 Yankees victory.
...
Ponson, released by pitching-poor Texas for being more trouble than he’s worth despite a 4-1 record, threw six shutout innings. He twice worked out of bases-loaded jams, coming back with none out in the second and one out in the third. In the second, he struck out Martinez, got Jose Reyes to pop up and induced Castillo to hit into a forceout. In the third, he got Ramon Castro to hit into a double play.

Martinez (2-2) saw his ERA balloon to 7.12 after he allowed six runs, six hits and five walks (one intentional) in 5 2/3 innings. The Yankees scored two runs in the fourth, fifth and sixth and three in the seventh.

Baseball IS a funny game, isn’t it?

NTNgod Posted: June 27, 2008 at 11:43 PM | 46 comment(s)
  Related News: General, NY Mets, NY Yankees

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   1. TVerik, the world’s No. 1 hydrogen dirigible Posted: June 27, 2008 at 11:51 PM (#2835444)
If the scoreboard didn't exist, I wouldn't have believed Pontoon™ was throwing a shutout. I was at work and not paying full attention to the game, but it seemed that the Mets were hitting the ball everywhere.
   2. Raskolnikov Posted: June 27, 2008 at 11:56 PM (#2835447)
One step forward, one step back. To be shut out by Ponson (shakes head).

Church can't return soon enough, I just don't see how Endy can hit enough to justify a spot in the lineup. And I know we can't count on him, but Alou can't return soon enough either.
   3. TVerik, the world’s No. 1 hydrogen dirigible Posted: June 28, 2008 at 12:00 AM (#2835450)
One day, 111,00 fans. About 85% of whom went home unhappy, I would wager. That's pretty good for baseball.
   4. AJMacaroni Posted: June 28, 2008 at 12:03 AM (#2835451)
If the scoreboard didn't exist, I wouldn't have believed Pontoonâ„¢ was throwing a shutout. I was at work and not paying full attention to the game, but it seemed that the Mets were hitting the ball everywhere.

They had the bases loaded about 18 times in the first couple of innings and, as usual, couldn't do anything.
   5. Robert in Redondo Posted: June 28, 2008 at 12:06 AM (#2835453)
Pedro = done
   6. Joey B. Posted: June 28, 2008 at 12:09 AM (#2835455)
Pedro = done

If he isn't the perfect illustration of why the Boston Red Sox are champs and the New York Mets are chumps, then I don't know what is.
   7. TVerik, the world’s No. 1 hydrogen dirigible Posted: June 28, 2008 at 12:14 AM (#2835458)
If he isn't the perfect illustration of why the Boston Red Sox are champs and the New York Mets are chumps, then I don't know what is.

A once-great pitcher had injuries and aged four years?

I mean, the Mets are chumps, but I don't understand "perfect illustration".
   8. It's All Voxter Now, Baby Blue Posted: June 28, 2008 at 12:20 AM (#2835459)
I think it's that the Red Sox let him go despite their emotional attachments, and the Mets signed him despite the warning signs.

That's how I read the statement. I'm not sure I agree, however.
   9. TVerik, the world’s No. 1 hydrogen dirigible Posted: June 28, 2008 at 12:23 AM (#2835460)
Like a bunt that both teams involved are pretty OK with, I think the Sox should have let Pedro go. And the Mets should have gambled on him. I think each team's position in the success cycle made it the correct move.
   10. AJMacaroni Posted: June 28, 2008 at 12:23 AM (#2835461)
As a Mets fan, I'm not sorry we have Pedro. He's the awesomeness.

And this is basically mid-April for Pedro. Hopefully he can get into a groove.
   11. Rich Posted: June 28, 2008 at 12:24 AM (#2835462)
As a Yankee fan, I admire the Sox sober approach to contract extensions as well. See Damon, Johnny, even with his recent hot hitting.

On another note, Reyes made a stellar play on a ball hit by Cano in the first game.
   12. With 17th Pick, From LA, 1k5v3L KcoLLoP Posted: June 28, 2008 at 12:27 AM (#2835466)
Russlan, that RJ vs. Pedro bet is looking pretty #### pointless right about now.
The way the two of them are pitching, I certainly don't care who sucks less.
   13. TVerik, the world’s No. 1 hydrogen dirigible Posted: June 28, 2008 at 12:29 AM (#2835467)
As a Yankee fan, I admire the Sox sober approach to contract extensions as well. See Damon, Johnny, even with his recent hot hitting.

I thought they should have let Varitek walk. But overall I agree.
   14. Best Regards, Larry Mahnken Posted: June 28, 2008 at 02:01 AM (#2835495)
I thought they should have let Varitek walk. But overall I agree.
Ehh, sometimes you have to pay a premium for something irreplaceable, even if they're not "worth" the money. If you're the Red Sox in the 2004 offseason, signing Varitek is the right move.
   15. Best Regards, Larry Mahnken Posted: June 28, 2008 at 02:02 AM (#2835496)
And Ponson is going to get lit up very, very soon. He came very close to getting lit up last night.
   16. TheUFactor Posted: June 28, 2008 at 02:08 AM (#2835498)
In his post-game comments, heard on WFAN.com, Pedro hinted that he may have been tipping some of his pitches. It seems he pulled Beltran aside to look at video and was told of a few tips.
   17. The Mets make Russlan sad Posted: June 28, 2008 at 04:33 AM (#2835512)
Russlan, that RJ vs. Pedro bet is looking pretty #### pointless right about now.
The way the two of them are pitching, I certainly don't care who sucks less.

Is it ever. I think we jinxed them.

Pedro's velocity is much better than it has been in recent years so I don't know why he's been so bad. I never expected Pedro to suck and be healthy but that might be where we are at this point in time.

If he isn't the perfect illustration of why the Boston Red Sox are champs and the New York Mets are chumps, then I don't know what is.

The Sox have done a fantastic job developing talent in the minors, but their free agency decisions have been a mixed bag since 2004. Julio Lugo, Edgar Renteria, Matt Clement, are just some of the bad signings they have made. Boston is a better organization than the Mets but I'd say that has more to do with player development.
   18. Raskolnikov Posted: June 28, 2008 at 09:03 AM (#2835524)
Looks like the Braves are going to be a nuisance again in the NL East for a while. Hanson and Schafer made the BA Hot List. Along with Heyward, that gives them 3 stud prospects. I really hope Tex signs with Baltimore this offseason.

Flores also made the Hot List, so I think we might soon have another stud to pair with Fernando.
   19. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: June 28, 2008 at 09:06 AM (#2835525)
Those who didn't watch the game should look at some of the game tape. I thought Pedro actually looked pretty good. 92 on the fastball, good bite on the curve. Three strong innnings, followed by some bad luck in the fourth. He was through 5 IP with 4 er and 4 k at 99 pitches, and the idiot Manuel brought him out for the 6th. Even then, he was one out away from going 6 ip 4 er before the Jeter double. Not every offense is the Yankees and Pedro is going to have some good starts. I mean, they may be of the 6 strong inning variety than the 8 strong inning variety, but he will help the Mets if he is out there every fifth day and healthy.
   20. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: June 28, 2008 at 09:08 AM (#2835526)
Put it this way, going forward you can expect Pedro Martinez to outperform The Frying Dutchman by a factor of about 4.
   21. bunyon Posted: June 28, 2008 at 09:19 AM (#2835528)
I'm not sure why it's so surprising that a guy who has reached his middle 30s and had a couple of years of injury is struggling.

Yes, maybe he'll be okay - I do think he'll be a solid (read, average to a bit above) starter and the Mets could use that. But Pedro as PEDRO! is done. No shame in it - it happens to every great player. He's smart enough and talented enough to be a contributor without a high percentage of his peak ability.

Anyway, I'd expect an average of 5.5-6IP per start with an ERA+ of 90-105 the rest of the way. Like I say, the Mets can use that, but he isn't going to win the pennant for them single handedly.
   22. jwb Posted: June 28, 2008 at 09:46 AM (#2835534)
I thought they should have let Varitek walk. But overall I agree.
They had pitching in their farm system. In 2004, they had Kelly Shoppach and Raul Casanova in Pawtucket. They re-signed the catcher.
   23. tfbg9 Posted: June 28, 2008 at 09:47 AM (#2835535)
Ehh, sometimes you have to pay a premium for something irreplaceable, even if they're not "worth" the money. If you're the Red Sox in the 2004 offseason, signing Varitek is the right move.


Everybody inside the game swears up and down that he is worth the money--and I know you used "worth".
   24. Smiling Joe Hesketh Posted: June 28, 2008 at 10:23 AM (#2835538)
Catching is scarcer than hen's teeth these days, so it's very likely that the Sox will re-sign Tek again after this season, despite his hitting ~.230 and looking more corpse-like at the plate each day. The pitching staff swears by him, so that's a likely factor in the team's decision making.

The Sox have no one in their system who looks like a number 1 catcher. Wagner and Brown project as backups at best, and Kottaras is rapidly playing himself into non-prospect status. I think the Sox will bite the bullet and pay Tek a great deal of money for the next 3 years for his inevitable decline phase because they lack better alternatives.
   25. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: June 28, 2008 at 10:26 AM (#2835539)
Varitek is already in his decline phase. He looks like pure stinking garbage at the plate.
   26. Templeusox has reached his genetic threshold Posted: June 28, 2008 at 11:18 AM (#2835546)
Pedro was tipping his pitches? He was throwing 2 and 3 changeups in a row at times and hitters were still off balance. Now, his control wasn't very good and they still got some hits off him, but I didn't see many swings taken that suggest the hitters knew what was coming.
   27. Darren Posted: June 28, 2008 at 11:21 AM (#2835549)
The Red Sox were smart to let Pedro walk, but letting Damon go isn't making them look all that smart. Damon's been a good and healthy player for the first three years while the Sox had to:

1) trade a productive Renteria, opening at blackhole at SS;
2) live with a terrible hitting Coco for 2 years, one of which he wasn't healthy.

Varitek's an interesting case. He's been worth his contract, I think. But Pierzynski was available for 2/6 in that same offseason. He signed with the White Sox and helped them to the World Championship, largely behind several great pitching performances.
   28. bibigon Posted: June 28, 2008 at 11:34 AM (#2835553)
It's not really clear that Damon can play CF anymore Darren. I think letting him go looks fine. Not great, as he can still hit, and maybe can still play CF, but that doesn't scream huge mistake for me.
   29. Danny Posted: June 28, 2008 at 12:00 PM (#2835559)
RZR has Damon as well above average in CF in 2006 and 2007, and as an elite LF in 2008. UZR had him +15/150 in CF in 2006, and +5/150 through June in 2007. He also has a 112 OPS+ with the Yankees.

I don't know if it was a "huge mistake" for the Sox to let him walk, but it doesn't seem like something they should be praised for.
   30. TVerik, the world’s No. 1 hydrogen dirigible Posted: June 28, 2008 at 12:05 PM (#2835560)
I think that if Crisp had lived up to 1/2 of the talk, the Damon move would have been a good one. It's just Crisp's collapse that makes it look bad.
   31. aleskel Posted: June 28, 2008 at 12:16 PM (#2835561)
Pedro was tipping his pitches? He was throwing 2 and 3 changeups in a row at times and hitters were still off balance. Now, his control wasn't very good and they still got some hits off him, but I didn't see many swings taken that suggest the hitters knew what was coming.

yeah, I didn't think he was tipping his pitches either. The hardest hit ball was Jeter's double/near home run, which was off a curveball, but if memory serves, Jeter has always been able to hit Pedro's curve
   32. TheUFactor Posted: June 28, 2008 at 12:22 PM (#2835564)
I'm just reporting what Pedro himself said... though it really sounded like he didn't know what was happening.
   33. Replacement-Level Primate Posted: June 28, 2008 at 04:11 PM (#2835649)
And Ponson is going to get lit up very, very soon.


Correct--I'd imagine he got pretty lit up at the bar about a half hour after the game ended.
   34. Rich Posted: June 28, 2008 at 04:27 PM (#2835672)
The Red Sox were smart to let Pedro walk, but letting Damon go isn't making them look all that smart. Damon's been a good and healthy player for the first three years while the Sox had to...


OPS+:

2006: 115
2007: 97 (injured for much of the first half of the season, causing him to lose the CF job)
2008: 132 (to this point)

Damon still has another season at $13 million on his contract. Now maybe he made more sense for Boston because he obviously wanted to stay there, but I think on balance it was a smart decision to let him go.
   35. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: June 28, 2008 at 05:05 PM (#2835717)
What about the numbers you just posted fits the conclusion you drew from them?
   36. Rich Posted: June 28, 2008 at 05:14 PM (#2835733)
What about the numbers you just posted fits the conclusion you drew from them?


The fragility Damon showed in 2007, and the decline in his defense that caused him to be shifted out of CF, which reduces his value. I seriously doubt that the offense he shown this season is sustainable; his prior high in OPS+ was 117 in 2004. If that assumption correct, it's not unreasonable to expect that his offensive production will decline for much of the rest of the season.

Consequently, I think having $13 million committed to Damon in 2009 is suboptimal, and that Boston made a defensible decision to seek another option (even though Crisp hasn't met expectations).
   37. Darren Posted: June 28, 2008 at 05:50 PM (#2835786)
I have to disagree with you Rich. Look at the numbers Danny posted on Damon's defense. His D is fine, even good. And if you plug his value into any kind of calculator for this sort of thing, it will come out as $13 mil/year being pretty spot on, possibly even a bargain, depending on how you rate his defense.

As TVE points out, it's such a big problem that Damon left the Red Sox. It's the chain of events that followed, and I think that's what you have to figure into any decision like this. Overall, dealing Renteria+++ for Crisp+++ after losing Damon really put the team in awful shape for 2006, and not especially good shape afterward for SS/CF.

Even if you think Damon's contract was suboptimal, there's an argument to be made that it was less suboptimal than other options.
   38. cardsfanboy Posted: June 28, 2008 at 06:18 PM (#2835824)
Pedro = done


sounds familiar to things been said on this site many times.
Edmonds = done
Rolen = done
Delgado = done
Thomas = done
(and I'm sure that there are probably 20 other similiar comments some which may actually pan out -andruw = done, but many others are just premature and incorrect)

not to mention premature comments like Sabathia is done.
   39. BFFB Posted: June 28, 2008 at 06:33 PM (#2835838)
What about Damon's arm which might as well not be there for all the use it is, kind of important for a centre fielder.
   40. KronicFatigue Posted: June 28, 2008 at 06:44 PM (#2835844)
Damon would be wasted as a LF at Fenway, and his arm won't play in CF, no?
   41. Rich Posted: June 28, 2008 at 07:19 PM (#2835881)
Even if you think Damon's contract was suboptimal, there's an argument to be made that it was less suboptimal than other options.


I agree that a case can be made either way.
   42. Raskolnikov Posted: June 28, 2008 at 08:40 PM (#2836117)
Wilmer Flores homered again! He's only 16 (swoon).

And the Franchise went deep as well.

Sam, you still think our farm system is barren?
   43. Please don't tell Phil Coorey to do the math Posted: June 29, 2008 at 03:32 AM (#2836406)
I don't miss watching runners advance from 1st to 3rd on everything that went Damon's way anymore.
   44. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: June 29, 2008 at 07:16 AM (#2836418)
Isn't Coco similarly noodle-armed? How's Ellsbury's throwing?
   45. Aspiring One-Armed Economist (6 - 4 - 3) Posted: June 29, 2008 at 07:22 AM (#2836419)
Crisp has a slightly below-average arm, but it's sufficient given his above-average range.

Damon has one of the worst arms in the majors. As his range started to decline, he was no longer an asset in CF.
   46. NTNgod Posted: June 29, 2008 at 07:39 AM (#2836423)
Damon has one of the worst arms in the majors.

Crisp is certainly down there, too, with the Juan Pierres of the world.
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