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So will Mariano.
The question is whether Posada or Bernie will get the same treatment (and arguably, whether A-Rod will get a monument and have his number retired). And let's not even talk about Paul O'Neill....
"Mount Rushmore to add one more face."
Also, the silver lining in the Yankee title "drought" (using that term loosely): if some of the new guys start winning championships, the Yankees will have to go to three digits on the uniforms in about 2075.
I'd go with an alpha suffix -- you could have a 2A for Derek Jeter, Jr. for instance.
What was "the home run that broke the Mets' back"? I assume it came in the 2000 WS, but I see only that Jeter hit two home runs: a solo shot in the top of the first of game four to put the Yanks up 1-0 and a solo shot in the top of the sixth to tie game five at 2-2. It's been a few years, but I don't recall either of those being "backbreakers". What am I missing?
Bunch of crap, mind you, but there you go.
He has though.
How can he have a statute when has had 100 RBI once in a season.
Just curious. What other way could that flip play have been made?
You have the plays. And you have the subsequent media reaction to the plays. It's nice to differentiate between them.
I think it should be diving to its left, while a cast iron ball is just out of its reach.
Just curious?
Plaque yes. Monument, No F-ing way!
To compare Jeter to Ruth/Gerhrig/Mantle/Dimaggio is a travesty of a sham-mockery.
To compare him to Yogi Berra is a complete joke.
In peak for sure. But, at the end of his career (assuming post 21 comes close to being accurate), Jeter will have more career value than Joe D. I mean, that gives no credit for war-era, etc. He will also be seen as the guy that brought Yankee baseball back. It wouldn't surprise me if someday the new Stadium is known as the house that Jeter built. I think his media myth/mystique is likely to grow much more than it is to decline.
well, he's as popular as Ruth, almost as resiliant as Gehrig, and has scored as much nice tail as Mantle and Dimaggio, so its not out of the question.
I think the Kramden statue rocks.
To compare Jeter to Ruth/Gerhrig/Mantle/Dimaggio is a travesty of a sham-mockery.
To compare him to Yogi Berra is a complete joke.
What he said. And Yogi should get a monument when he dies.
Are you counting defense there?
To date Jeter has a 122 OPS+ in 1837 games and has probably been among MLB's worst starting SS. Joe D had a 155 OPS+ is 1736 games, and is universally regarded as an excellent defense CF. Not quite Mays/Blair, but 1 notch down. Jeter's best hitting season is worse than DiMaggio's average.
Looking at WARP. DiMaggio had 127, Jeter has 75.4 to date. Adjusted for defense, Jeter has to lose at least 1 win per year (on average). Even if you give Joe D zero defensive wins (average fielder), Jeter has about half his career value to date.
Quite frankly, Jeter would have to improve dramatically (both offensively and defesnively), and play at tat level until he was 40, and still would be unlikely to match Joe D's career value.
Yogi will evntually get a monument, hopefully not too soon, since the Yankee methodology seems to be that you get a plaque first and are considered for a monument when you move on to The Big Ballpark In The Sky™. Thus, while I don't doubt that Jeter will get a monument, many of us won't be around to see it, much less post an appropriate I-told-you-so message.
WARP already accounts for defense. Now, it uses BPro's horribly flawed FRAA, but it is already adjusted for D.
WARP includes defense (Bpro's version of defense anyway) and even though on the yearly basis, their almost always wrong in Jeter's case, the final value is about even with his ZR value. No need to further adjust.
I still agree Jeter < Dimaggio.
Sorry, I always confuse VORP and WARP.
Still, Jeter has almost no chance of catching DiMaggio is career value.
Hate to let facts, get in the way of the Jeter bashing, but here's the respective rate stats :
285/348/482 OPS 830 OPS+ 125
317/388/462 OPS 850 OPS+ 122
Looks pretty even with a slight edge to Jeter. Better OBP and Yankee stadium favors LHH, so the park adjustments are flawed for that park.
Keep thinking fans.
BronxJeter. A monument isn't enough.But then, I think the White Sox should build a statue for Lew Fonseca, so take this for what it's worth.
And the fans hold him in that esteem too too. I agree that after a certain point, on field production is irrelevant in this discussion. Jeter is beloved by Yankee fans and has been the face of the team during the Yankee renaissance. He is a HOF ballplayer, he will have a monster bench mark (3,000 hits) and he will retire as one of the most popular Yankees of all time. Just because he may not the same career value as three guys who are among three of the top ballplayers of all time should not make him unworthy of a statue. He's reached greatness on the field and he is adored by the city, I am all for him getting his monument.
Decline phase? I know he is the most Jeterific of all, but it's gonna happen.
and Yankee stadium favors LHH, so the park adjustments are flawed for that park.
Jeter is an opposite field hitter so he might benefit then?
I've never heard the 2nd half of that statement from anyone before. Is there some analysis anywhere?
get in the way of the Jeter bashing
Pretty much everyone is agreeing that he should get a plaque, which makes this one of the mildest bashings I've ever attended. :)
Berra: .288/.351/.491 (128 OPS+) in 1596 games (5941 AB)
Jeter: .317/.388/.462 (122 OPS+) in 1835 games (7429 AB)
I assume Berra has a defensive edge, but where Berra may have been a higher quality hitter, Jeter makes up for that with quantity. Given that Jeter will likely catch Berra in career games sometime in 2009 (with no obvious reason to think he won't continue playing for quite a while after that), Jeter may well catch Berra in overall value, at least offensively.
285/348/482 OPS 830 OPS+ 125
317/388/462 OPS 850 OPS+ 122
Looks pretty even with a slight edge to Jeter. Better OBP and Yankee stadium favors LHH, so the park adjustments are flawed for that park.
Keep thinking fans.
Again, what about defense.
Berra was an excellent catcher, Jeter a poor SS. Berra is regarded as one of the 3-4 best C's ever. Jeter's not close.
We can also talk MVP's, 3 for Yogi, plus 2 2nd, a 3rd and a 4th place showing, with DiMaggio and Mantle on his teams.
Jeter's a fine player (HoF hitter/baserunner as a SS, very poor fielder), and I'm as big a Yankees fan as anyone, but let's please have some historical context.
1. Jeter had a lot more than 5 feet left in which to accomplish this. Not to say that he could have done it in X feet, where X is the actual distance, but...
2. He had enough space to turn, either toward home plate or away from it. Stopping or leaping aren't the only options in the scenario.
To me he appeared to have lost his balance at the time of the catch, and unsuccessfully tried to regain it after a few steps. Were that the case, neither stopping nor turning would've been a viable option for him by the time he got to the wall.
Of course, that was in the season in which he aided the team to the worst postseason collapse in baseball history. Build the monument!
Jeter's got a good chance to finish in top 5-10 SSs. He's not there with Berra now, but it's not a given that he's not going to ranks as one of the best 5 or 6 SS to ever play in terms of career value.
Of course he didn't. Why even argue with these people? They see what they want to see.
The foul pop was a great play, but in the tier below the Rowand face plant in sheer danger. Again, another play that I have seen enough for the time being.
I can't see how anyone could claim that Jeter isn't in the top tier of concentration and playing the game right. And dating major babes.
Jeter's already top 10 and maybe top 5. Just who exactly are all the shortstops who are better than Jeter?
Wagner for sure. I'll even give you Ripken and his career 112OPS+.But who else? Vaughn and Cronin were slightly/better comparable hitters, but possibly worse fielders. Ernie Banks who played half his games at first and had a career OPS+ of 122?
Steve Jeltz. <ducks>
That is ridiculous dude. Vaughan is as good as it gets and was a much better hitter than Jeter. His peak is much higher, his career numbers are much higher. Vaughan, Ripken, and Wagner are clearly better. The others, I don't know, but Vaughan is not reachable for Jeter.
Little known fact:
It wasn't a flip play. He was congratulating himself just for catching the ball and when he fist-pumped, the ball slipped out of his hand directly at the catcher.
Jeterbashing is a long tradition here.
Tony Graffanino was another favorite for who was better than Jeter.
it's always the same pattern
1) Jeter does something good
2) someone comments that Jeter did something good
3) someone responds by saying that it wasn't that good, but since its Jeter and he's overhyped everyone says it was good
4) someone responds to that response by saying that even though Jeter gets a lot of hype, he does do things that are objectively good
5) everyone argues over just how good Jeter is
throw in "fist pump", "calm eyes", and "just past-a-diving", and you have just about everything that's been said on this site about Jeter
CP, I wasn't really arguing with you. I was taking issue with the fact that Jeter wasn't "even close" to being a top 3-4 ss. You also disagreed with that comment.
As for Vaughan, I'll concede him. I never saw him play, but based on the numbers, it's closer than you state. (Of course the comparison is different if you make a wartime assumption).
Jeter has more hits (2359- 2103), HR's(195-96) doubles and even RBI's. here's the rate stats comparison:
Vaughan: 318/406/453 OPS 859 OPS+ 136
Jeter: 317/388/462 OPS 850 OPS+ 122
Defense: Unless you go with anecdotal evidence on fielding we really can't compare. We've got no range data. Vaughan's fielding % was .951. Jeter is surehanded at .975. Anecdotally Jeter is a Gold glove ss.
but that dive in the stands play wasn't a great play, Edmonds pulls 10 plays a year better than that. Andruw Jones maybe even more (or more accurately makes 10 or more harder plays appear easy) The dive was a solid play of concentration, it was a late acceleration, he was still accelerating when he reached the ball and it was too late to stop it before the stands, most other shortstops would have been in position so that it didn't become a dive into the stands play. On top of that many players don't dive into the stands instead they have enough awareness of their surroundings to turn, slide, slow down etc. Sorry but that dive into the stands was hardly a great play, and heck I wouldn't doubt for a second that Jeter has a dozen better plays in his career than that.
Defensively is another story.
I'm new -- is mention of the innumerable "intangibles" passe now?
I do, but arguing that Vaughan was only a slightly better hitter than Jeter is not going to help make that point. Objectively, using an adjusted stat, Vaughan is clearly superior.
I never saw him play, but based on the numbers, it's closer than you state.
14 points of OPS+, with Vaughan being one of the few guys who has an OBP edge over Jeter is huge. Looking at Bpro and BBref, the difference looks to be between 90-170 runs, depending on where you set the 0 benchmark. You're right that I overstated the difference, but it's still pretty large.
Defense: Unless you go with anecdotal evidence on fielding we really can't compare. We've got no range data. Vaughan's fielding % was .951. Jeter is surehanded at .975. Anecdotally Jeter is a Gold glove ss.
I think the worst you can assume about Vaughan is that he was as bad as Jeter with the glove, you can't really think Jeter makes up any ground there.
Edited due to some shady math on my part.
Well, at least that isn't heard much anymore. Same for the "Nomar is better" argument.
it's always the same pattern
1) Jeter does something good
2) someone comments that Jeter did something good
3) someone responds by saying that it wasn't that good, but since its Jeter and he's overhyped everyone says it was good
4) someone responds to that response by saying that even though Jeter gets a lot of hype, he does do things that are objectively good
5) everyone argues over just how good Jeter is
throw in "fist pump", "calm eyes", and "just past-a-diving", and you have just about everything that's been said on this site about Jeter
One more bit of evidence that BTF is a hopelessly right wing forum, since Jeterbashing is an objectively fascist exercise.
Does Shane Spencer suddenly have the best arm in baseball history? That throw had died. There wouldn’t have been a play at the plate had Jeter not been there. The throw was UP THE LINE. If Jeter doesn't intercede, it's a stand-up run for Giambi. The accurate flip was amazing, Posada hanging onto the ball was amazing, and Giambi not sliding was amazingly stupid. All in all, an amazing play… So get the #### over it.
I’m not even going to get into the dive into stands, which was obviously to protect his knees and out of self-preservation. How anyone could argue that Jeter was showboating by smashing his face into a front row seat is really beyond me.
Don't forget about the part where he jumps over the grassy knoll. The truth is out there.
Also, what's with the hoopla about Willie Mays, who had a bead on Wertz's ball all the way? It wasn't even a one-handed catch!
His baserunning, as Repoz noted in one of his intros today, has taken a serious nose dive since the beginning of the 07 season. He's already gotten caught stealing (and he was out) and got nailed at second last night (although it was a really good play by Rios). We'll see if the leg workouts he did this offseason get him back to where he was as recently as 06.
Fine, but its been great up until recently. At least as far as my "rarely see him everyday" eyes have seen it.
I know there is a gap in offensive environments, but he has 200 runs more than Berra in a similar number of PAs.
Not to mention Jeter's ability to show up nearly every day, Huckaby excluded.
Yeah, it still would have been real close. I kind of get caught harping on that note. It's basic human nature to assign blame to somebody even in the case of a miraculous play. Oh, and this video is kind of cool. The flip is at the end.
the flip
Absolutely, I'm just hesistant to mention it nowadays.
I know there is a huge in offensive environments, but he has 200 runs more than Berra in a similar number of PAs.
Ah, I see where you're going. I hadn't really paid much attention to that debate. Good call.
on top of the fact that the ball was rolling away from the plate even if Jeter technically slowed the ball down with his play, he put it much more on target requiring less of an effort by Posada. A good slide still gets Giambi safe, a bad slide he's out, I mean a slide to the outside of the plate, Giambi got tagged by stepping almost dead center of the plate a slide to the back and I don't think Posada can reach him in time.
when I say he was showboating I'm usually exaggerating for effect, it's not that he was showboating that anyone has a problem with the play, it's that it was a routine play which 20+ shortstops in the league would have had as easily if not easier, but because of his own defensive failings it looked more spectacular than it needed to be. It wasn't even close to being the best play of the week yet it won the popular fan vote on MLB as best play of the year.
Be careful though. Jeter is extremely good at going back on pop-ups. He gets quick reads and runs to the right spot, not unlike a wide receiver. I'm not sure too many other SS's get to that ball, especially considering Jeter was probably shading Nixon to pull during that particular AB. Now, had Trot hit a 5 hopper up the middle, you may have a beef....
Personally, I thought his catch against the A’s in Game 5 of the 01 Division Series was way better than his face plant in the stands. But the former play is largely forgotten for whatever reason…
OTOH... Some people wanted to see three strides (#48) at full tilt taken in a span of 5 feet (#19). Running full tilt, even.
For the record, I'm not arguing it wasn't a great play, nor am I arguing that he "chose" to dive into the stands. In fact I've been arguing the opposite. I was just countering sj's suggestion that Jeter, after catching the ball and running full tilt, had about 5 feet between him and the wall. He most certainly didn't. If he was struggling to maintain balance for the strides it took before he got to the wall, as I've suggested, the end result is about the same: he didn't have enough opportunity to react.
I've seen the "5 feet" comment in this thread, and I've heard it suggested elsewhere (though not in this forum) that he was so close to the stands at the time of the catch that the ball would've landed in the seats on the fly had he not interceded. The play stands on its own merits and doesn't need embellishment.
Keep this up, and people are going to start claiming that the play was overrated. ;-)
I've heard that so many times that I believe it, but I don't think this is a play that is a good example, I've seen the play so many times and I don't think he got a good jump on the ball at all, his initial acceleration was too slow so that he underjudged it, and had to turn on the afterburners which led to him going into the stands, he didn't get a good read on that particular ball in my opinion. Or he thought that the third baseman was going to get the ball and realized that Arod wasn't trying.
One currently stands next to him much of the time.
Jeter is undoubtedly one of the greatest offensive shortstops ever. He's an easy HOFer even if he retires tomorrow.
Still, as a shortstop Ernie Banks posted OPS+ totals of: 94, 144, 136, 149, 156, 155, 145, 122. His knee ended his career at shortstop and also appeared to limit his effectiveness as a hitter. In terms of "peak" Banks looks like he wins pretty easily over Jeter. In terms of Career? Well I suppose you could argue that Jeter should have stopped playing shortstop around the same age Banks did. :)
Jeter was around 20 runs above average in 2007.
Man, if you can’t appreciate this play, or the Giambi flip, you might just not like baseball.
And I say that as a Giants fan, with the A’s as my AL safety, who has no dog in the Yankees v. Haters fight.
Seriously. It’s like the time Vizquel, during a Sunday night ESPN telecast, finished a doubleplay in a key moment by throwing to 3rd instead of 1st after the forceout at 2nd. The next day this site was full of snarkistas saying, “well, it wasn’t THAT good,” or, “Vizquel is SO overrated, anybody could’ve made that play,” when precisely the point was, that play IS not routine, it requires great presence of mind and reflexes, it demonstrates mastery of form over unusual circumstances, and was nothing less than a joy to watch. But hey, if you can’t appreciate that sort of thing, then maybe baseball isn’t quite the sport for you.
Agreed and this may explain several (negative)comments above.
I'll stand by my statement. At the literal "end of the day" we have consensus that Wagner, ARod and Ripken are better. Vaughan and Banks had better peaks, but Jeter may have a better career. Pretty close to being one of the best 3 or 4 at his position.
From BBRef, by Batting Runs, in runs above average, Vaughn 364.3, Jeter 258.3. BPro, batting runs above average, Vaughn, 466, Jeter 292. Batting runs above replacement, Vaughn, 679, Jeter 531.
Jeter was around 20 runs above average in 2007. Jeter is unlikely to catch Vaugh in career value.
I agree with every part of this. That Berra doesn't have one is not an argument against Jeter, in my mind- but Yogi ought to get one first, as there is a smaller window, you'd figure, for him to enjoy it.
Jeter is the defining player of the Yankees 4 in 5 seasons WS run. Poor range toward second base doesn't eliminate that, or even touch it, frankly.
Correct if that's the only metric used. If you want to use batting runs above ave, Jeter is much better than Ripken. Jeter 292, Ripken 197. If you use runs created, then Ripken clearly bests Jeter (1729-1379). Jeter tops Ripken in RC/G 6.8-5.2 I give the career edge to Cal, even though Jeter is almost 100 runs ahead in your metric of choice.
I said from the outset that Vaughan was better, but as for career value, Jeter might surpass even Vaughan. Jeter has already had a longer career. Vaughan played 14 seasons and only played short for 10. Jeter has better counting stats than Vaughan in every major category, including runs created (1379-1216). Moreover, the raw rate numbers are close. Runs created/game are virtually identical. Vaughan 6.9- Jeter 6.8. As noted above, career OPS is Vaughan 859, Jeter 850. The edge to Vaughan (even in rate stats) is only in adjusted stats, due to era adjustment. Does Kevin want to jump in and argue that Jeter is unfairly penalized by the steroid era?
The fact remains that even conceding the edge to Vaughan, Jeter is "close to the top 3 or 4 at his position". If you want to use batting runs above average as the metric, then he's also better than Ripken.
I won't argue career, because Jeter will pass him in PA this year (damn those injuries!). But when he played, Larkin was clearly better.
When he played, Eddie Gaedel walked every time up.
Ultimately, Jeter's peak is part of his argument- but his larger argument comes from the length of his career, which, as far as I can tell, will increase for as long as he's playing. Obviously, if he becomes Biggio 2007-like, this adds less value. But more Jeter 2007 years will add a great deal.
Since they don't give out monuments until the guy passes, Yogi is no more (or less) likely to enjoy it than Jeter.
Yogi is on the short list of candidates for greatest catcher ever.
Jeter is on the short list for worst Gold Glove award ever.
He is still a Hall of Famer, and may very likely get his monument some day. But he ain't Yogi.
Well, assuming he was a part-time ambassador who failed to stop Hitler's march on Europe, why give him any credit?
Otherwise, yeah, maybe we do.
OPS+ 126 in 1943 at age 31 (a modest year for him).
Returns in 1947-48. Still a very good hitter, but a part-time player. And then he departs.
His 1933-41 is just just jawdropping.
The "dive" is certainly one of the most overrated plays. It was a great catch that resulted in a stumble into the stands. A little fact that everyone forgets, and I'm shocked that it hasn't been mentioned here by one of the hardcore Red Sox fans, is that in the same exact series Pokey Reese made an almost identically dangerous play, although IIRC Reese's was made close enough to the wall where the crowd dive was necessary to make the play and not just the aftermath of it.
It's been a great career, but Jeter's way behind Dimaggio on peak: After all, who's Jeter's Marilyn Monroe?
I apprciate the Giambi play which is more a product of heads up than any real skill. I mean I could put aaron miles on the team and there is an equally as good of a chance he makes the same play.
the dive on the other hand was a crappy play that is only appreciated by idiots who have never seen a major league defensive shortstop. It WAS NOT A GREAT PLAY...I can't push this point home enough, it was a play that either resulted because of poor judgement, poor acceleration, etc.. the play itsel was 100% a result because the defender(Jeter) wasn't making a good play. there are thousands of idiots who thinks Edmonds dives for plays to make them look good, mind you they are idiots, but still the though exists, and the fact is that it's a routine play that every ####### single shortstop over 8 years old, would have had.
Let's see about that in 10, 20 or 100 years. I just don't see it.
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