Why is there all of a sudden a demand for Torrealba? He's pretty awful. .212 .292 .326 Those are his non-Coors stats last year. I know there aren't many options at catcher right now, but LoDuca looks good compared to Torrealba.

Even his stats including Coors are pretty pedestrian.

Minaya is panicking and will overpay based on a week or two of decent playoff performance from Yorvit.

but LoDuca looks good compared to Torrealba.

Without a doubt, Shooty.

I know Lo Duca is a jackass, but why would the Mets want Torrealba over him?

Minaya is panicking and will overpay based on a week or two of decent playoff performance from Yorvit.

If the sole reason behind Minaya's interest in Torrealba is LoDuca's asking price, what makes you think we're talking about a huge chunk of change? Perhaps Minaya doesn't view a 36 year old Paul LoDuca to be any more valuable than a 30 year old Yorvit Torrealba, especially moving forward since it doesn't appear like either are all that interested in signing a one year deal.

LoDuca looks better now, but also seven years older. If they both require multi-year deals, Torrealba might be a better bet to be worth something towards the end of his contract.

Or what GM said.

Is Colorado comfortable with Iannetta as their number 1 for next year, or are they also shopping?

LoDuca looks better now, but also seven years older.

Except Torealba's OPS+ might be 40 by the time he is 36. :-)

Colorado is supposedly interested in Michael Barrett, and I've also heard Lo Duca's name mentioned. As long as they're looking for a one-year veteran caretaker, I have no problem with that.

what makes you think we're talking about a huge chunk of change?

The quote in the New York Times this morning was that they would "make him an offer he can't refuse." I take that to mean offer him enough over and above what the expected top offer for him would be out in the market that he would willingly forego shopping himself to anyone other than the Mets. By definition, then, that's a premium on his actual value.

Is a Torrealba/Castro job share all that bad? Especially if it's considerably cheaper than LoDuca? Castro can hit, but he can't play anywhere near every day. Torrealba is a respectable enough backup that you can live with only getting 90 games out of your "regular" catcher.

Why is there all of a sudden a demand for Torrealba?

Because his team went to the World Series, he had a great series, and he's probably going to get a ton of credit for handling the pitching staff. He's a fringe major leaguer.

Torrealba and Lo Duca had similar offensive seasons, but Torrealba is 6-7 years younger, better defensively, and is a much better bet to willfully share time with Castro. What exactly would be your Plan B with Posada gone?

What exactly would be your Plan B with Posada gone?

You could sign Barrett, who will never get on base, call a lousy game, play lousy D behind the plate and be a bigger ####### then Lo Duca ever was.

What, that doesn't sound appealing?

How depressing.

Is a Torrealba/Castro job share all that bad? Especially if it's considerably cheaper than LoDuca?

It's probably not all that, and might even be an upgrade on Lo Duca, at least the Lo Duca of 2007. Since this is the Mets we're talking about though, it shouldn't really matter to them which is the cheaper option, only the better one.

He's a fringe major leaguer.

But he's got a borderline-HOF name.

I think I would have the Mets wait and see if the Padres offered Barrett arbitration. If they didn't, he would ahve been worth a roll of the dice. Sure last season was bad, but he did post a ~115 OPS+ from 2004-2006.

What exactly would be your Plan B with Posada gone?

Jesus Flores.

Torrealba and Lo Duca had similar offensive seasons, but Torrealba is 6-7 years younger, better defensively, and is a much better bet to willfully share time with Castro. What exactly would be your Plan B with Posada gone?

I guess I don't think Castro is the great shakes you guys do. He can't play very much and his performance last year is an outlier with the rest of his career. And Torrealba is just terrible. This is half a step back for the Mets, I think. But then, like I said, I don't think Castro is going to the player others think he's going to be. If you think Castro can give you 81 games of .320/.420, then maybe this won't be so bad. Castro+Torrealba is still a little worse than LoDuca+Castro even if Castro can produce that well for half the games. And finally, because I don't think Omar is stupid--the opposite in fact--if LoDuca was holding out for 3 years, then I don't blame them for cutting bait. They may very well ahve been backed into a corner. So, this could be bad news without it neccessarily being anyone's fault.

I wonder how the ZIPS for Olivo and Torrealba would compare in Shea?

I wish the Mets still had Flores and who knows how he would have developed playing everyday in the minors rather than being a backup in Washington. That said, he's not ready to be anything but a backup. His numbers are masked by the fact that he got 50% of his PA against lefties. He posted a .572 OPS against righties. He's not ready to be an everyday player year.

Castro does have a .783 OPS as a Met in 480 PA. If he can keep within shouting distance of that number and play at least half the games, this could be OK.

Still, a little more patience may have been in order to see if a guy like Ramon Hernandez became available.

Last year, playing half the time at Shea of course, Met catchers hit .267/.309/.410, compared to a NL average of .257/.318/.394. I imagine a Torrealba/Castro mix can top both those numbers, which effectively solves the "catcher problem" for the Mets, which didn't really have a good solution once Posada was off the market.

#21

Losing him was utterly stupid, when there were other guys whom they could have lost with far less value.

RFLOH, you don't have to tell me. I am his biggest fanboy.

Still, a little more patience may have been in order to see if a guy like Ramon Hernandez became available.

Hernandez is definitely available, and I can't imagine it would take more than a couple C+/B- prospects to get him.

#25

Would something like Kevin Mulvey / Jon Niese + Mike Carp have gotten him?

That seems reasonable to me.

It's possible the Orioles are hoping Hernandez will bounce back in the first half of next year and fetch more at the deadline, because it seems just too easy to construct a deal with the Mets that makes both teams (and their fans) happy.

Bengie Molina could also be had, as well. At least he should be available, but you never know with Brian Sabean.

He can't play very much and his performance last year is an outlier with the rest of his career.

Not entirely accurate (depends upon what you define "career" to be)
It's an outlier in terms of his MLB career, it wasn't an outlier in terms of his entire PROFESSIONAL career.

His MLB career is .234/.310/.413 in (as someone noted above the average catcher last year hit .257/.318/.394).
His career minor league numbers are .283/.345/.464 in 2637 PAs - including a .335/.380/.628 line in 218 abs AAA at age 24, and a .336/.395/.628 line in 390 ABs in AAA at age 25. There was a "Free Ramon Castro" movement afoot on Prime back then.

He hit .238/.322/.455 in 101 MLB at bats at age 26 (The Marlins also had Charles Johnson who was supposed to be a star but vaporized that year, and Redmond hit .305/.372/.387 in 256 ABS)
The next year the Marlins got IROD who played 144 games, and Redmond was still around. Castro hit .283/.333/.604 in 53 abs over 40 games- half his PAs came as a pinch hitter.

The next year he was supposed to "start" along with Redmond, instead, he had legal issues (which is why some to this day call him a rapist), was hurt, sucked- .135/.231/.260 in 96 ABs, and the Marlins got LoDuca down the stretch.

He'll be 32 next year, and would obviously have received significantly more PT last year if he'd been healthy.

IMHO he's been a better player than LoDuca over the last 3 years (collectively), when he's been able to play, the problem is the "when he's been able to play" part.

In many ways he's had a damn odd career
1: First round draft pick
2: A catcher who literally torched AAA, AND unlike the Willingham's of the world, he can really catch.
3: Despite 1 & 2 has never sniffed a starting job, aside from the false start in 2004.

Say Ramon Castro gives you a 750 OPS next year. .250/.315/.435 ... doesn't sound too special. But that puts him among the top 10 catchers in the majors by OPS. I know he's never shouldered a starting job before, and has back problems, so I'm not predicting the All-Star game or anything. But absent any better options you might as well just plug Ramon Castro in and start him as often as he can.

I suppose Torrealba is ok if you need someone to share the job with him. But he's not worth $15 million, or whatever the rumored contract is.

Say Ramon Castro gives you a 750 OPS next year. .250/.315/.435 ... doesn't sound too special.

McCann put up a .772 OPS last season so a .750 OPS as an everyday catcher is very solid. That said, I think a .700-.720 OPS is more realistic.

JPWF, I think people call Castro a rapist because he was arrested on charges of rape and subsequently pleaded no contest to a lesser charge. Saying that he "had legal issues" is grossly unfair to the victim, IMHO. Perhaps "rapist" should be "alleged rapist", as he neither was convicted of nor plead guilty to rape charges.

Torrealba sucks. He'd make a decent backup, but he's a bad hitter for a starter, doesn't really have the durability, has almost no potential to improve and has nothing to separate him from guys making the league minimum. I know the free agent market was terrible, but Minaya should have tried to trade for Hernandez or Johjima or maybe Doumit if he can still catch. Hell, Ronny Paulino is a better player than Torrealba.

Just for the record, here is the legal definition of the offense to which he pled no contest.

Look at that list for a minute. Is there any possible combination from the menu that doesn't sound, look, and feel like rape? Drugged and fingered her? Threatened to beat her up unless she blew him? Beat off on her while she was passed out?

Ergo, he's a self-admitted rapist.

Minaya has hit and got better than expected production from fringe guys before. Castro, Chavez and Easley come to mind.

$5 million per does seem a bit steep.

incredible that torrealba is going to get much of any money.

and astros fans are complaining about brad ausmus?????

I'll take "The Rapist" for $100, Trebek.

I know Lo Duca is a jackass, but why would the Mets want Torrealba over him?

Maybe because once he leaves NY, the NY media might report the true dirt on him. Please someone let it out!

Please someone let it out!

You have got to stop doing this. It's unfair!

Look at that list for a minute. Is there any possible combination from the menu that doesn't sound, look, and feel like rape?

First, you have to understand the definition of "indecent contact":

Any touching of the sexual or other intimate parts of the person for the purpose of arousing or gratifying sexual desire, in either person.

Any sort of a grope, without the express consent of the other person, would be a violation. I don't condone that sort of behavior, but there is a bit of leap from copping a feel to forcible intercourse. Based on this, Durocher probably committed this offense every time he was in Philly or Pittsburgh.

You have got to stop doing this. It's unfair!

Not any less fair than all those guys who dig up the slightest bit of dirt on ARod letting this go without a pass while making me sit on it.

Maybe because once he leaves NY, the NY media might report the true dirt on him. Please someone let it out!

Wasn't there a story about him and some 20 year old last year?

(the bastard)

Wasn't there a story about him and some 20 year old last year?

Yes, but that's nothing.

Who said $5 million/year? Colorado offered $7m/2 according to the article.

Also, wouldn't the "panic" move be re-signing LoDuca?

Ergo, he's a self-admitted rapist.

By pleading no contest he's not admitting anything.

Ergo, he's a self-admitted rapist.

But .... is this illegal?

Can I get the terms? I need a good laugh right about now after the A-Rod thing today.

FWIW, Rotoworld is saying that Minaya did check on Ramon Hernandez and they wanted a high-end prospect in return. Obviously, I wouldn't want Minaya to do that but that doesn't mean he shouldn't wait and see if the Orioles lower their demands.

omar continues to amaze as mets' GM. specifically, it's amazing he makes me wish the mets resigned lo duca.

No, I would still rather have Torrealba than Lo Duca. I think Lo Duca is about to fall off the cliff offensively -- yes, next year, so a multi-year contract would be especially disastrous -- and that he would bitᴄh and moan about Castro getting significant playing time, while Torrealba won't.

That's about the nicest thing I can say about this. It's Steve Phillips-esque, fill a hole with a reliable, mediocre veteran. Blech.

"omar continues to amaze as mets' GM. specifically, it's amazing he makes me wish the mets resigned lo duca."

again, if there is a better option, say it.

Roto is reporting 3 years at around 5 million per, for Yorvit. The Rockies get a supplemental 1st rounder but the Mets don't have to give up any picks. I'll say it again: blech.

again, if there is a better option, say it.

uh, I think I did - if you can resign loduca to a one-year deal, that's IMO more palatable than locking yourself in to three years of guaranteed mediocrity.

that's a big "if." loduca will get at least 2 years from somebody else, for probably about the same 15 million rotoworld is reporting here. they both suck, but at least yorvit is more likely to sit for castro a good chunk of the time.

3 years? Awful. I'd even rather give him 10 million for one year or something. I hope this is just an isolated terrible move and not proof that Omar has now cracked because of the collapse.

that's a big "if." loduca will get at least 2 years from somebody else, for probably about the same 15 million rotoworld is reporting here.

loduca sounded amenable to coming back. who's to say one year plus team option wouldn't have happened if omar had pursued it?

One thing to keep in mind is that letting Lo Duca go somewhere else nets the Mets a supplemental draft pick. Still, Torrealba isn't a very good player and it's more money than a medicore player should be getting.

uh, I think I did - if you can resign loduca to a one-year deal, that's IMO more palatable than locking yourself in to three years of guaranteed mediocrity.

And if LaDuca had any interest in a one-year deal, that would make sense, but alas...

I hope this is just an isolated terrible move and not proof that Omar has now cracked because of the collapse.

I dunno... Omar wanted Posada, which I thought was a sensible move, even given his age. Can't blame him for that not working out... and it's not as if the Mets have gotten worse. I just don't like the fact that the Mets are willing to give themselves very little chance to get better at that position for the next three years.

If it affords them the opportunity to spend resources to get better elsewhere, fine... as long as they actually go do that. But I would have rather have seen the Mets at least try to bring back Lo Duca for another year and see what next winter's catchers' market brought. Heck, I kinda wonder if there isn't some minor leaguer out there somewhere who could do what Torrealba does.

And if LaDuca had any interest in a one-year deal, that would make sense, but alas...

How do we know he wouldn't have, especially if Omar overpaid him or put in some vesting options? An extra few million in exchange for a shorter obligation in years? Might have been worth pursuing.

See, but what you're forgetting is that 1) Lo Duca is worse than Castro when they're both healthy; 2) Lo Duca will complain if you play Castro over him; 3) Lo Duca, in general, sucks. If your concern is simply not being tied to anyone at catcher long-term, why not just go acquire Random Catcher Who Is Available For Basically Nothing And Is At Least Better Than Mike Difelice (RCWIAFBNAIALBTMD for short), and have him back up Castro? That would still beat the hell out of bringing Lo Duca back.

If your concern is simply not being tied to anyone at catcher long-term, why not just go acquire Random Catcher Who Is Available For Basically Nothing And Is At Least Better Than Mike Difelice (RCWIAFBNAIALBTMD for short), and have him back up Castro? That would still beat the hell out of bringing Lo Duca back.

That's fine too, though I get the feeling the question there would be whether Castro can handle full-time duties.

But it's not about being tied to "anyone" at catcher long-term... it's being tied to somebody mediocre (at best) long term.

This contract isn't so big that the Mets couldn't trade him if they are willing to eat a little bit of money so if a better option comes along, I'm sure Omar isn't going to let Torrealba's presence prevent him from doing something better. I'm glad the Mets will get a pick for letting Lo Duca go. Still, it's one year longer than I would have liked and I wouldn't have minded if Omar tried to be a little more creative and targeted a guy like Shoppach for example.

This contract isn't so big that the Mets couldn't trade him if they are willing to eat a little bit of money so if a better option comes along, I'm sure Omar isn't going to let Torrealba's presence prevent him from doing something better.

I hope so.

The Mets have a catcher. It isn't Paul LoDuca. It seems likely the Mets will resign Castro. What exactly is there to complain about? Mike Piazza circa 1998 isn't walking through that door.

I'm glad the Mets will get a pick for letting Lo Duca go.

Well
1: They have to offer him arbitration
2: He has to decline

I have no clue why the Mets didn’t pursue Kelly Shoppach, or even grab Kurt Suzuki as a spare part in a larger deal with the A’s [for Blanton, perhaps]. What’s the rush for Yorvit anyway? It’s like the Mets scrambled to close this deal. Huh? Sloppy.

1: They have to offer him arbitration
2: He has to decline

Not if somebody signs him before December 1.

What? He doesn't have a dozen offers already?

Well
1: They have to offer him arbitration
2: He has to decline

I don't think that'll be that big a deal. For one thing, Lo Duca's a type B free agent so a team doesn't have to give up anything and I think Lo Duca will get a better offer than what he'd get in arbitration.

I have no clue why the Mets didn’t pursue Kelly Shoppach, or even grab Kurt Suzuki as a spare part in a larger deal with the A’s [for Blanton, perhaps]. What’s the rush for Yorvit anyway? It’s like the Mets scrambled to close this deal. Huh? Sloppy.

Suzuki isn't a spare part.

Is a Torrealba/Castro job share all that bad? Especially if it's considerably cheaper than LoDuca?

NL catchers hit .256/.318/.393 last year- an OPS+ of 83.

Torrealba was at 75 in 443 PAs
Castro had 127 in 157 PAs
combined 89 in 600 PAs

Torrealba's career OPS+ is 80
Castro's is 88

If they split time they should come out around league average.

Suzuki is going to be Oakland's everyday catcher next year. He's hardly a spare part.

Lo Duca's a type B free agent so a team doesn't have to give up anything and I think Lo Duca will get a better offer than what he'd get in arbitration.

Right. And so is Torrealba. So basically, the Mets get a sandwich pick for signing a FA catcher other than their own FA catcher. That just seems wrong.

Right. And so is Torrealba. So basically, the Mets get a sandwich pick for signing a FA catcher other than their own FA catcher. That just seems wrong.

It is. I think getting rid of free agent compensation is a must.

And the deals are official.

Castro, 2 years, $4 million.
Torrealba, 3 years, $14.4 million.

Is it opposite day, or something?

Suzuki isn't a spare part.

Yeah, you're right. He definitely has good value as a catcher, poor choice of words on my part. I should’ve said they hypothetically could have expanded a possible deal for Blanton to include him. My bad. I’m not saying the Mets can just go out and get a Suzuki at will, it just doesn’t appear they displayed a ton of imagination here.

Yeah, you're right. He definitely has good value as a catcher, poor choice of words on my part. I should’ve said they hypothetically could have expanded a possible deal for Blanton to include him. My bad. I’m not saying the Mets can just go out and get a Suzuki at will, it just doesn’t appear they displayed a ton of imagination here.

I hear you. Rob Bowen or Jeremy Brown are spare parts, though, and I think they're both better than Torrealba.

The speed with which Omar targetted and signed Torrealba suggests that failure of imagination isn't the problem here. It's not like this was a panic move to sign anybody just anybody to play catcher, late in the game, and overpaying to do it. Omar must geniunely love Torrealba and think that he'll be great for the Mets. Which is to say, he might prefer Torrealba to the more imaginative options that we can come up with.

PF, I am willing to give Omar the benefit of the doubt as he's been right the last two times I think he hurried and he wasn't imaginative (Trading for Dirty, trading for Nady). Still, my gut geeling is this is a mistake.

"Is it opposite day, or something?"

Torrealba gets credit for being a starter on the NL champs, and Castro gets clipped for being a rapist with a history of weight problems. They aren't likely to be all that far apart in on-field performance next year, but the intangibles of the situation really aren't hard to understand. Players who are seen as good people get more money than you'd otherwise expect, and players who are seen as bad people get less.

And the deals are official.

Castro, 2 years, $4 million.
Torrealba, 3 years, $14.4 million.

Is it opposite day, or something?

... If not for the issues Castro has had with his back it'd be insane- he's clearly better than Torrealba...

The speed with which Omar targetted and signed Torrealba suggests that failure of imagination isn't the problem here.

It's his MO, he decides he has a need, Catcher, MRelief, CF, whatever- he does nothing else until he fills that perceived need. Once Posada was gone and he targeted Torrealba that was all she wrote- you think Torrealba;s agent was going to say, "wait, I have to shop my guy around a bit first"?
If you recall when Omar traded for LoDuca, it was pretty soon after he'd made offers to Ramon Hernandez and Bengie Molina- neither player "rejected" the offers, their agents said they needed time and wanted to look around first- Omar wasn't going to wait, he picks his priorities and fills them in that order, period, not getting a catcher, any catcher, was holding him up. So he traded for LoDuca, and pulled the Hernandez and Molina offers (And both catchers ended up signing for LESS).

Once Posada was gone I think he wanted a reasonable body at a reasonable price- period. The difference between what he was willing to pay for Posada and what Torrealba is getting is likely going to be earmarked by Omar for something else- more Latin American signings? An extension for Santana/Cabrera if he pulls off a trade? (Ok the last one was wishcasting- the Mets cannot match the Los Angeles Teams ability to trade for those two).

Yeah, you're right. He definitely has good value as a catcher, poor choice of words on my part. I should’ve said they hypothetically could have expanded a possible deal for Blanton to include him. My bad. I’m not saying the Mets can just go out and get a Suzuki at will, it just doesn’t appear they displayed a ton of imagination here.

Who do you think that the A's would have wanted back for Blanton AND Suzuki?

Given age and contract, Ramon Hernandez would probably cost less in term of talent.

Omar must geniunely love Torrealba and think that he'll be great for the Mets.

4-5 years ago I had Torrealba down as a major sleeper, someone who could become Ramon Hernandez with good dee pitch handling qualities...

hasn't progressed an inch, in fact he's regressed as far as I can see.
The only thing I can hang some hope on is that many times mediocre catchers who stay healthy sometimes start hitting better in their 30s... Someone (Bill James?) speculated that after catching thousands of innings you have to think that they'll learn something about reading and recognizing pitches...

But he's got a borderline-HOF name.

It can be rearranged to spell "Lavatory Orbiter."

Who do you think that the A's would have wanted back for Blanton AND Suzuki?

Given age and contract, Ramon Hernandez would probably cost less in term of talent.

It would take a lot. Both players are still cheap and the loss of either would leave a gaping hole on the roster. I just don't see a trade between the two teams happening. I really don't think thre will be any big trades involving the A's this year. We just don't have the chips to do anything big and the few chips we do have are pre-arb and cheap for a while yet, the kind of players we need.

Who do you think that the A's would have wanted back for Blanton AND Suzuki?

Milledge, Humber, Maine for Haren and Suzuki? Don't mind me. I'm just bored.

Rather than Suzuki, I would've expected the Mets to trade for Landon Powell, if they were picking up a catcher from the A's. He's not needed in Oakland, he's got a good ceiling, and while he'll be out for a large part of '08, NY could probably scrape by with Castro until then.