Scott Kazmir II?

Very Dark Gray Friday.

Seems like this was a waste.

Fire Omar now. Agree?

Bowden LOVES his toolsy outfielders!

ANOTHER catcher? what happened to Estrada?

Hopefully they have an Estrada trade already lined up but I can't imagine any scenario that Ryan Church + Brian Schneider > Lastings Milledge + Estrada bounty.

Jayson Stark has pointed out in his chat today that we're probably all overrating Milledge and if Omar could've gotten good value for him, he already would have. I like Brian Schneider as much as the next guy (defensively, anyway) but do any Mets fans actually think this is a favorable deal for them?

I know this is going to turn into a Woe is a mets' fan thread, and my sympathies, but looking at it from the Nat's POV.

Their lineup now is
Barrett/Lo Duca
Johnson/Young
Belliard/Lopez
Guzman/Lopez
Zimmerman
Wily Mo
Milledge
Kearns

Logan/Escobar to back them up, and Maxwell in the wings.

Thats pretty decent. They have a good bullpen, and are drafting bunch of high end starting pitchers. They are not far from being in contention.

wow ... just ... wow

So, A soon to be 29 year old corner outfieder with one full season under his belt and a catcher who hasn't slugged above .340--SLUGGED--since 2005 for Milledge. This is just a terrible trade. It offends my sensibilities as a baseball fan. I don't give a #### about the Mets and this pisses me off.

The only way this makes sense is if Brian Schneider is secretly Dominican.

8

They also have Marrero coming up in the system. He looks to be one of the better hitters from that 2006 class.

Mets fans are going to feel awfully silly when the Estrada for Johan Santana deal is announced later today.

From a talent perspective the Mets are swapping OFs with similar stats in 2007 (Church w/ much more PT, but LM 6 years younger) and getting a good glove no-hit catcher that you don't really need. What is the rationale?

Both Church and Schneider were with Omar on Les Expos

Schneider is old. His days as a good hitting catcher are done. His defence was not as good as it once was, though still decent. ( He had some shoulder injury IRRC ).

Church is an X factor. Has power but very brittle. The Nats lose nothing in this trade, they had no place to play Church. And I don't see what the Mets are getting in this trade apart from catcher defence. heck, Blanco could have been had for a song from the Cubs.

This is a horrible trade. Church can hit righties and is 4 years away from free agency so it's not like he is without value. Schneider used to be a pretty good catcher but has been horrific the last two years and will be a free agent in 2007 so he adds very little value to this trade.

Basically, the Mets traded Milledge for Church for a guy who is six years older, needs to be platooned, and is nothing special in the field. Gary Cohen will like him a lot more than Milledge though.

You'd think other teams would offer more if they knew Milledge was available for such a cheap priace.

Unfortunately for them, the Nationals are required to pitch to the other team as well.

Jim Bowden is underrated, or was underrated.

Jayson "Shannon Stewart for MVP" Stark is the same guy who thought Kazmir for Victor "can be fixed in 10 minutes" Zambrano was a favourable deal. For the Mets.

I'm done with this team.

Trading Milldege for some overrated catcher, and some fourth OF is completely ridiculous. Omar has no clue about anything.

Schneider: 08:$4.9M, 09:$4.9M

bahahahaha

Uh...what?

Jayson "Shannon Stewart for MVP" Stark is the same guy who thought Kazmir for Victor "can be fixed in 10 minutes" Zambrano was a favourable deal. For the Mets.

I thought it was Rick Peterson who claimed he could fix Victor in ten minutes...

EDIT: Nevermind. I thought you were insinuating the quote marks came from Stark.

Bowden >>>>>>>>>>>> Omar.

It's not even close to being as bad as Kazmir for Zambrano.

That's all I'd like to say for now.

WTF?

Geez; if they needed a freaking catcher I'd've done something like Molina for Milledge or the like. Ryan F. Church? and Brian F. Schneider? Ow.

Crossposted from the Haren thread...

Ugh. The more I think about this trade, the more unhappy I'm getting.

What's funny is that, because of all the rumors, I had set up a defense mechanism in my own mind that Lastings Milledge was going to get traded before Opening Day, so that it wouldn't bother/hurt me as much when they did move him. Well, that failed.

And for Ryan Church? That just sucks.

It also sucks that, as soon as he was finally going to get a stable chance to play and show everyone what he could do, he gets moved. All that time talking about him, pushing for his playing time and defending him (here and with people I know in real life), and the Mets trade him right before us Met fans (especially all the Mets Primates) get to see him take off.

Much like Kazmir, I wish Milledge the best of luck. I hope he becomes a perennial All-Star. I'll always root for him.

Fun exercise:

Contemplate how your team could have had Milledge if they were willing to give up your backup C and a 4th OF who would be decent if pressed into everyday duty.

EDIT: As a Yankee fan, I certainly would have done Molina+Melky for Milledge. That's a lot of Ms.

Unfortunately for them, the Nationals are required to pitch to the other team as well.


Thats why they are not in contention now.
They do have Hill, Bergmann, Chico. If Patterson can give them some innings, they will have a decent record in 08 too.

npurcell : true. Still a ways away. Am guessing he takes over at 1B.

Is Bowden a good GM? More and more...it seems possible.

I don't think this is a disaster trade. Schneider and Church are decent starting players. But it's a bad trade.

With Castro/Estrada, there's no need to go get another catcher. Schneider might prove to be better than either of them, but the margin will probably be thin. Church is probably a better player than Milledge is today, but for how long?

The Mets do narrowly improve in 2008. But the Nationals easily got the best player out of the deal.

On one hand, I think Ryan Church is a bit underrated as a ballplayer.

On the other hand, what the hell?

I'm done, if Milledge was traded for anything less than a bonafide ace or a 1970's Johnny Bench that was it for me in 08.

See you fellow Met fans at Citifield in 09 or when Willie Randolph is fired, whatever comes first.

Boycott 08!

Jim Bowden is underrated, or was underrated.

I'm more and more impressed by him. He really pinpoints talented guys that have fallen out of favor with their current organizations for whatever reason. He's become very, very savvy.

I hope, when Lastings returns to Shea, he hits a home run in his first AB, and high-fives the crowd along the LF / RF lines when he comes out for defense.

more like Owned-mar, amirite?

Wily Mo
Milledge
Kearns

That's quite a lot of disappointment (for various reasons) in one outfield. Nats games are going to be awesome to watch next year though, that's for sure. The thought of having Lastings get to play in center is pretty exciting too.

wow, i didn't realize how bad a hitter schneider is. hasn't cracked 100 OPS+ since 2002 (and that was a partial season). less than 30 xbh last year in over 400 ABs. in his last 810 ABs, he has 39 doubles and 10 home runs. this guy makes lo duca look like a slugger.

church is decent, but he's probably not a better hitter than milledge at this point, is 6 years older, and is closer to free agency, plus he has zero chance of being a star.

damn, i knew the sheen had come off of milledge, but i didn't expect he'd fallen *this* far.

I'm done with this team.

I've kind of adopted the Mets as my #2 team over the last few years because I was "done" with the Orioles. So maybe this is all my fault...I should start rooting for the Yankees and see what happens.

This is a terrible, terrible deal.

I am sick to my stomach.

lolwut?

I hope Milledge kills the Mets next year, especially Wagner.

ZIPS (age)
Schneider: .244/.321/.329 (31)
Church: .271/.348/.473 (29)

Milledge: .270/.355/.449 (23)

I am not justifying this trade at all but let's not let the horribleness of the trade cloud the fact that Church isn't tottally useless. .866 OPS in 2007 againsts RH and .938 OPS against them in 2006.

The least Omar could have done is get a relief pitcher from the Nats as well.

I feel pretty bad right now.

To add insult to injury, Jesus Flores is the reason Schneider is expendable.

Folks are saying Church is nothing more than a 4th outfielder, but how many 4th outfielders post a 114 OPS+ in 450+ at-bats?

I sure wish the White Sox had someone like that... their *starting* outfield had OPS+'s of 73, 67, and 105.

Schneider: .244/.321/.329 (31)
Church: .271/.348/.473 (29)

Milledge: .270/.355/.449 (23)

Switching parks is going to change that number. Did Dan run them for RFK?

I'm not as high on Milledge as some, but this is still an awful trade for New York.

Minaya/Randolph will be gone by Opening Day '09, I think.

We're here at Shea Stadium, where we've secretly replaced the Mets' talented young African-American outfielder (who has every misstep, however minor, blown up and posted all over the back pages) with a lily white alternative who was quoted in September 2005 as saying:

I said, like, Jewish people, they don't believe in Jesus. Does that mean they're doomed? Jon nodded, like, that's what it meant. My ex-girlfriend! I was like, man, if they only knew. Other religions don't know any better. It's up to us to spread the word.

Let's see how the New York media react!

Jayson Stark has pointed out in his chat today that we're probably all overrating Milledge and if Omar could've gotten good value for him, he already would have.

Why not play him then?

Jim Bowden is underrated, or was underrated.

I'm more and more impressed by him. He really pinpoints talented guys that have fallen out of favor with their current organizations for whatever reason. He's become very, very savvy.

I've always got that impression from Bowden, even in Cincinnati. He has other problems as a GM, but he's always seemed to be a guy that could exploit the market pretty well in some respects.

Folks are saying Church is nothing more than a 4th outfielder, but how many 4th outfielders post a 114 OPS+ in 450+ at-bats?

The problem being that Church is going to make Alou look like a paragon of health

Clean house.

Omar is dead to me.

I admit to wanting to laughed after reading about the Mets fans here who didn't think Blanton (or any other above-average player) was worth Milledge, but I'm worried that Sam's head is going to explode.
That being said, Omar is not an awful GM (Brian Sabean - that's an example). That leads me to believe a few factors are at play

- Milledge's value really was as down as everyone had been saying (Heyman or someone else noted that the O's and the A's both passed on Milledge).
- The Mets clearly believe that Schneider (still a very good C, if not a hitter) can start 100 games for them next year, and that Church will match Milledge's production in RF (which I find to be a reasonable assumption)

It's not a good trade. But you can make the argument that for the next couple years, Church will most likely push the Mets closer to a title than Milledge would. Of course, that's just one way of looking at it...

Folks are saying Church is nothing more than a 4th outfielder, but how many 4th outfielders post a 114 OPS+ in 450+ at-bats?

I sure wish the White Sox had someone like that... their *starting* outfield had OPS+'s of 73, 67, and 105

4th OF!!!...IS a bit of an overreaction. However, I think it's just a result of the fact that you can reasonably make a case that Milledge and Church will provide the same immediate value, however, when you take into account tools and all age you realize that Milledge's upside, which is star potential, was traded so the Mets could pay 5 million a year for Brian Schneider. Were I a Met fan, I would be livid.

No, he isn't a 4th OF. But unless his defense is Ichiro! level, how the #### is he better than oh, say, Jose Guillen?

If Omar is so ####### desperate for a league average OF, go and ####### sign Guillen.

Schneider has no power, but he's got a decent batting eye. If he gets a hitting coach who doesn't sport wood every time he lofts a weak ball to the opposite field, maybe he can revert somewhat to form.

Defensively, he's solid. Hardly anybody runs successfully on him.

Yeah, the offense stinks, but look at the park. And look at how terrible NL catchers are. He's not THAT far below average, and is probably pretty close to league average when you factor in his defense.

Church is what he is... the classic change of scenery guy. He seems like he's reallly laid back like most California players seem to be, which really set some members of the team off. But he played very good defense in the corners and probably an average CF in a pretty tough place to play because of the field dimensions. He's a solid complimentary bat, but, man, you guys are going to howl like the wind when you see him swing at breaking slop on the outside corner. He's the Caucasian Wily Mo.

Nats games are going to be awesome to watch next year though, that's for sure. The thought of having Lastings get to play in center is pretty exciting too.

Agreed. I'm really impressed that they didn't opt for the expensive splash in CF in the form of Jones, Rowand, Hunter, etc (well, at least it's looking that way). So this leaves a lot of money to bolster the pitching staff over the next 2 years (and, to be fair, makes the Dmitri/Belliard extensions look even worse).

<quote>I said, like, Jewish people, they don't believe in Jesus. Does that mean they're doomed? Jon nodded, like, that's what it meant. My ex-girlfriend! I was like, man, if they only knew. Other religions don't know any better. It's up to us to spread the word.</quote>

Let's see how the New York media react!

They could locker Church next to Shawn Green and film it as a reality show for VH1.

WTF is this.

Hello?

Livan Hernandez is next, I'm telling ya get out now before its too late...

Poor Sam.

If Omar is so ####### desperate for a league average OF, go and ####### sign Guillen.

Or play Lastings Milledge.

It may well be that the perception of Milledge's conduct had soured the market on him. If so, perhaps this was, indeed, the best Omar Minaya could get for him. You know what that means?

YOU KEEP HIM.

If the problem is that the manager just can't get along with him, you fire the frigging manager.

If the problem is that the GM hasn't got a damn clue how valuable he is, you fire the frigging GM.

Lastings Milledge will be, by far and away, the best player to come out of this trade. He already IS the best player in this trade. The Mets have -- perhaps -- marginally upgraded their catching. I doubt it; I'd have rather gone into 2008 with Castro/Estrada than Schneider/Castro. But let's say it's a marginal catching upgrade.

They will be significantly worse off in RF with Church v. Milledge, and for years to come when Milledge comes back to haunt them playing in the same division.

They also now have no chance to pull off a deal for a starting pitcher of any significance. Obviously, Omar decided that he just didn't have the chips to make that happen, so he pulled the trigger on this abomination.

I can only figure one thing: this was done to appease Willie Randolph, who has shown his disdain for Milledge from Day One. Because it makes no sense whatsoever from a talent perspective. Well, of all the bad things about Randolph, this goes to # 1 on the list without any doubt whatsoever.

The problem being that Church is going to make Alou look like a paragon of health

Other than the one year when he separated his shoulder while making a catch, he's been pretty healthy. That same year, he did play through a broken pinky toe, but I wouldn't say he's especially injury prone.

It's official. Omar is an idiot.

Mets fans will get to see 19 games of Lastings next year, that's only a little less than 162.

Comparing this to Kazmir. Kazmir had just four starts above high-A ball before the trade. He was a great prospect, but TINSTAAP and all that. Milledge was an above average hitter last year as a 22-year-old while dealing with injury issues. This may be a worse deal.

This is a great trade for the Mets!

(insert counter-intuitive explanation here)

I hope Church is out for the year, and Schneider hits worse than LoDuca. But what I want the most is ####### Willie Randolph fired. Thanks for nothing, you ############.

#54

So keep Milledge, and ####### sign Jose Guillen. ####### sign Yorvit.

Why not play him then?

I absolutely concur. I was just saying what Jayson said and I wanted to know if anybody else agreed.

I believe the Nats new PF that Dan used was calculated based on the dimensions of the new park, plus a guesstimate for environmental conditions. It is close to 100 if memory serves. So Church's line will go down in Shea, and Milledge's line will go up in the new park. They're really about even in a neutral park, IMHO.

From Rotoworld:

Rosenthal says that the Mets offered Johnny Estrada to the Nats in the trade, free of charge, but that the Nats preferred to look elsewhere for a Schneider replacement.

That's a pretty cold fact to let slip to the press.

So this leaves a lot of money to bolster the pitching staff over the next 2 years (and, to be fair, makes the Dmitri/Belliard extensions look even worse).

I'll give ya Dmitri, but Belliard's basically a league-average 2B, and they're getting him for what? $1.5-2 for each of the next two years? That's not terrible.

As a Nats season ticket holder, I like this trade, but I'm curious - is Lastings bringing friends? Usually prospects for vets trades are two-for-one in favor of the kids, as opposed to this deal.

Mets fans will get to see 19 games of Lastings next year, that's only a little less than 162.

Hell, with Willie Randolph at the helm, we would have gotten to see Lastings for only about 19 anyway, even if they hadn't traded him. That's how much Randolph hated Milledge and buried him, probably costing the team the division last year . . . . I see little reason to believe he wouldn't have done the same thing in 2008. Tool.

"They have a good bullpen, and are drafting bunch of high end starting pitchers. They are not far from being in contention."

TINSTAAPP. Until those drafted pitchers make it to the show and perform at a high level and stay healthy, the Nationals are far from contending.

Their two best starters in 2007 are likely to be worse in 2008: Shawn Hill, who won 4 games last year, looks decent, though I wouldn't count on him to do as well next year. Tim Redding gave up earned runs at a lower rate than I would have expected in 2007 (though his SO:BB ratio was not good). I suspect he'll soon revert to being Tim Redding.

They had a handful of other young starting pitchers on their '07 roster. None of them was any good, but I suppose most of them have a lot of upside. At this point, they will have to be lucky to win in say 2009, when maybe a couple of their starters will emerge.

I can only figure one thing: this was done to appease Willie Randolph, who has shown his disdain for Milledge from Day One.

I concur, and it seems like there's a fairly obvious reason why.

This thread is going to break the record for number of # signs, I think.

I'm irritated the A's or Giants couldn't come up with a better package.

I feel like the poor souls in "The Monkey's Paw". I wanted Schneider, but certainly not at the cost of Milledge. I hope those twerps in the TV booth are satisfied.

Man, the least Omar could have done is trade him out of the division. I'm having scary thoughts of Milledge going all Pat Burrell on the Mets for the next decade.

Kazmir had just four starts above high-A ball before the trade. He was a great prospect, but TINSTAAP and all that. Milledge was an above average hitter last year as a 22-year-old while dealing with injury issues

Sean, I love you beyond all reason, but can't you see the logical counterpoint to this? CHURCH IS GOOD, ZAMBRANO WAS NOT. Unless Milledge goes Grady Sizemore, Kazmir is a worse trade because we literally got nothing for him.

#80

As a Mets and A's fan, I'm doubly pissed off.


Did someone else make the Maine and Ollie Perez deals or does Manny Acta know something incriminating about Omar?

Man, the least Omar could have done is trade him out of the division. I'm having scary thoughts of Milledge going all Pat Burrell on the Mets for the next decade.

Good! I hope he hits a bomb and comes over to high five Willie Randolph, what a ####### pile of ####, go ruin some other organization you ####!

I can only figure one thing: this was done to appease Willie Randolph, who has shown his disdain for Milledge from Day One. Because it makes no sense whatsoever from a talent perspective. Well, of all the bad things about Randolph, this goes to # 1 on the list without any doubt whatsoever.

I'm as baffled by this as anyone, but I think there are more plausible explanations for this trade than that it was done to appease Randolph (whose status with the organization after the collapse seems to be less than rock solid). Omar's Montreal connections to Schneider and Castro; a win-now attitude; overvaluing catcher defense; or the organization's (meaning at least ownership's) long-standing and incredibly frustrating inability to distinguish their prospects' real value from market perceptions.

Is this even legal?

As a Royals fan, I am pissed. I would have gladly parted with Mark Teahen and John Buck to get Milledge!

Is this even legal?

I laughed.

I believe the Nats new PF that Dan used was calculated based on the dimensions of the new park, plus a guesstimate for environmental conditions. It is close to 100 if memory serves. So Church's line will go down in Shea, and Milledge's line will go up in the new park. They're really about even in a neutral park, IMHO.

Thanks. If thats true, this trade is actually bit worse. I am guessing Schneider/Castro will be platooned, which will make for decent production in the short term for the Mets.

Chris Needham : Church had some issues with health last year too, right? I remember it being mentioned when a Braves game was on.

But seriously, Church's production is equivalent to Green/Guillen. Schneider is a defensive upgrade on Estrada. Just not worth Milledge, even if he is a bust. Because Milledge could have netted something more valuable in return for the Mets, if he had to be traded.

This is a great trade for the Mets!

(insert counter-intuitive explanation here)

There really is none. You can make arguments regarding Church being a solid player (he is), but he's 29 years old and not likely going to get better than what he is now. Milledge's downside is Church v. 2007. As Sam pointed out, this deal basically requires the Mets to keep Gomez, which means no Santana, no Bedard, no Haren. And you get to pay $10 million for 700 AB of .680 OPS from Schneider. Say hello to Livan.

It is a terrible, irredeemable, unjustifiable trade.

Is this even legal?

I laughed.

Me too. I'm shocked it took so long to show up. Also, Omar should have his children and such taken away.

Rosenthal says that the Mets offered Johnny Estrada to the Nats in the trade, free of charge, but that the Nats preferred to look elsewhere for a Schneider replacement.

From a non-Mets fan standpoint, this story just gets better and better ...

Chris Needham : Church had some issues with health last year too, right? I remember it being mentioned when a Braves game was on

He missed a few games after being hit in the forearm with a pitch... and missed a few with a quad strain -- the normal kind of day-to-day injuries you'd expect. It certainly doesn't seem like anything chronic. He's not on the Nick Johnson health plan!

make I ask a question which reveals just how stupid I am. How do I make sure there isn't big space after my one-line posts?

As a Royals fan, I am pissed. I would have gladly parted with Mark Teahen and John Buck to get Milledge!

That's the thing that puzzles me about all this. Everyone and their mother knew Milledge was available. He is both toolsy and has a good statistical record. You'd think someone should have made a more atractive offer.

Rosenthal says that the Mets offered Johnny Estrada to the Nats in the trade, free of charge, but that the Nats preferred to look elsewhere for a Schneider replacement.

From a non-Mets fan standpoint, this story just gets better and better ...

That is effin hilaripus. I almost shot Diet Coke out of my nose. Maybe Omar should have Billy Beane arbitrage his trades afterall.

Maybe to shore up their rotation, they can trade David Wright to St. Louis for Scott Rolen & Joel Pineiro.

Say hello to Livan.

Well, the Nats just freed up $14 million in salary over the next two years. Maybe they'll swoop in and take even him away from you.

(I'll be charitable and not mention a certain catcher the Nats still hold the rights to)

I audibly laughed when reading this. Sorry, Mets fans.