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Why? I mean besides that the Mets didn't think he was all that great, obviously, but if it had come to that, were they really gonna play Endy Chavez over him? And if they thought he's not a legitimate starter and they're wrong, that shouldn't be spun into a point in their favor.
Unless they win by half a game or something, I don't think this trade will have made the difference. Anyway, this does not need to be the Mets' mindset. They have a young nucleus and can expect to contend for a long time. They don't need to load up for one year, and honestly I think in the three-round-playoff era, that's not usually a great idea anyway.
Sure, "happier."
#### yes!!!!!!
I think the logic is that the entire NL sucks, which is true, and the Mets were the only team with a chance to not be an overhyped AAAA team, which passes the sniff test, and their route to becoming a ML team depended on Milledge developing or being leveraged to get a top player from the major leagues, the AL, and now that can't happen.
Absolutely! At least you have a catcher of the future.
I didn't know Anna Benson qualified as "a lot of people".
seriously, I'm a Met fan I live and work in New York, I know lots of Mets fans, not ONE was sad to see Kris go (some were sad to see Anna go...)
The Mets didn't make the playoffs last year. Why do they pass the sniff test?
I'd rather have him spending the Mets money than almost anyone else to tell you the truth.
And so does Schoenweiss' and Mota's agents.
Yes, but I don't think Omar's ego could have tolerated making that trade.
Even if Milledge doesn't develop into a star, and this turns out to be a trade of two journeymen players, then on dollar value and trade potential this is still a trade the Mets lost. And you need to win the small trades as well as the blockbusters, because the small trades are far more frequent.
because the Mets are the National league.
somewhere, someplace there was a secret vote and all us fans picked ..
x . Metropolitans
as our National representative to lead us out of mediocrity ..
did anybody else get this memo?
Well sure, but what I meant was that this club can't afford another headcase, pristine or not.
This is old news. Bowden has earned a lot of respect around here the last couple of years.
OOTP sez:
That's not fair. You have offer us more. Don't bother me with deals like that.
What has Milledge done that's been so awful? Does he shoot heroin? Does he beat his wife? It amazes me how reputations about guys are formed and become accepted as gospel with a bare minimum of evidence.
That is hilarious.
Absolutely - I'd say the Mets win that trade.
Yes, but at least Milledge is Toolsy.
LOL. I don't know how many others got the reference, but thanks . . . I needed that laugh.
It may be that Church contributes more to the Mets in 2008 than Milledge would have, but I agree with DA that it will be a marginal improvement over Milledge. However, Milledge will be the better player in 2009, and is likely to be the vastly better player in 2010.
Assuming he stays healthy, Milledge will be a significantly better player in 2008 than Ryan Church. Remember, he won't be playing in RFK, so he won't be hurt by the park (and of course, Church wouldn't have been, either). This trade will be a debacle from Day One, and it will get worse from there. We won't have to wait until any 2010.
But is he McClutch?
Oh. I thought people still thought he stunk.
Get out of my face!
Or going a bit more old school:
Thou art slain.
I agree 100%. It is beyond dumb. There's just no logic to it at all. Good teams don't trade top prospects for a Ryan Church, and esp. don't plan on going into the season with someone who hits as poorly as Schiender does as their $1 catcher. There are so many better ways to build a team than this. I can think of 1000. There was no real imperative to deal Milledge, especially not in advance of the winter meetings where you might have a shot at someone offering a better deal. Maybe he killed Pedro's dog or something, but even then you don't trade for a liability, especially one that is completely redundant goven the fact that Castro and Estrada are on the roster.
I do think Church will contribute to the 2008 Mets. Schneider blocking Castro will nullify any good feelings from that, however, and Milledge will be a plus defensive CF with a 120 OPS+ next year.
Fair enough Russlan. I'm just saying, personally, if I were a Met fan, I would feel nervous with Minaya at the controls. Take Dodger fans, at least Coletti hasn't shipped off their main prospects for non star/superstars yet. However much LA fans might be waiting for the axe to drop, it hasn't happened. The same can not be said for the Mets main prospects after today, which I think is a bad sign for the Mets' future.
This came up in the slotting thread, where Minaya suddenly came to the realization that slot recommendations were just that, recommendations. I think it's finally safe to say that the Mets simply do not have the kind of money most seem to think they do.
And yet we still get to play for the same prize. Whats worse for baseball 2 teams dominating a division/league or everyone having a chance, was there a better story in this year's playoffs than the Colorado Rockies? Snuffing out the hopes of young upstarts like the Indians for a payroll heavy team like the Red Sox is good for baseball?
Whats sad is I am the fan of a GM who is just as dumb as the GM he replaced. Maybe we can platoon Ben Johnson with Ryan Church next year and John Adkins can be our setup guy.
As bad as all of this is I'm grateful my team is in the NL East and not the AL.
Well other people did take advantage of them as well- which is one of the reason they are ex-GMs
Good moves:
1: Signing Pedro
2: Signing Beltran
3: Trading for Delgado
Really, all those three took was $, Omar essentially used the Wilpon's pockets to outbid everyone else.
4: Benson for Maine and whatisname/ whatisname for Dookie
What else has he done well????
The Colon trade was a catastrophe of Bagwellian proportions- Sizemore, Carlos Lee and Brandon Phillips for 1/2 a season of Colon?
He did get Church and the better Izturis for Stewart
Vazquez for Juan Rivera and Nick Johnson was a decent swap.
Trading Cameron for Nady and Nady for Oliver Perez worked reasonably well in the end
I don't know about this. Milledge posted a .700 OPS against righties last season whereas Church hits righties pretty well. Church can play defense relatively well. I don't hate this deal short-term. Long-term is the problem.
If only Omar had read that thread. He would have been too confused to anything then.
This is stupid. They're dumb, but they're certainly rich.
Nady for Perez/Hernandez.
Assorted spare parts FA signings.
Feliciano back from Japan.
Freudian, rotisserie baseball slip?
the Mets DO have that kind of money, the issue is how much of that money the Wilpons let Omar play with.
RDF.
Wait, $14M a year for an average of 120 IP with a 117 ERA+ is a good move? I guess its not terrible, but it's hardly a major plus.
Edit: I suppose there's also this year to judge that signing once and for all.
Exactly, in the end, they're effectively the same, but I should have made myself clearer.
Vazquez for Juan Rivera and Nick Johnson was a decent swap.
Trading Cameron for Nady and Nady for Oliver Perez worked reasonably well in the end
Selling high on Seo? Choosing Wagner rather than Ryan? Getting Castro for nothing? Luis Castillo for relatively nothing? He also traded for Livan Hernandez when he was a Giant and that trade was a very good one. He traded Choate for John Patterson.
This is a bad trade. Don't get me wrong. I am not ready to fire Omar because of this.
Welcome to the Nationals, Lastings.
Today was a good day.
Milledge = Roberto Kelly
Church = Paul O'Neil (actually by rates stats he's a pretty good match through the same age)
Who the hell is supposed to hit the lefties now that Milledge is gone, ENDY F'ING CHAVEZ??? He of the .706 career OPS v. lefties? Now, there's a plan. I think I just threw up a little in my mouth and in my soul.
Pedro has a 124 ERA+ and has averaged 126 ip as a Met. If he has a good year in 2008, that deal will be a good one for the Mets. He bought the Mets a lot of credibility and it has certainly been better than the Pavano and Clement signings.
You mean pitcher Cliff Lee, not one-biscuit-from-350lbs Carlos.
okay, I'm a big history buff, but I need some help with this joke.
Great environment for a young player you created, Willie. Nice job. Way to give the kid every chance to succeed as he tries to become a major leaguer.
Backman, McDowell and the boys are smiling, remembering the hatchet job they did on Jefferies back in the '80s in that very same clubhouse. Some things never change.
Another thread (Delmon Young/Garza?) somehow turned into a discussion of whether or not Hitler held up the deployment of the Me-262 and the role of Spanish Pilots (on both sides) in air war in WW-II
Good points, both. I still think he needs that good 2008, though.
okay, I'm a big history buff, but I need some help with this joke.
Go to this thread, Comment # 63. All will be clear.
it was the sickels:Carlos Gomez thread.
If you are going to make an educated guess about who is going to be a better player, I think it is wise to choose the player that is good against righties rather than lefties. Again, if I had to bet who is going to be the better hitter in 2008, I'd choose Church. 2009 and beyond? Milledge.
I think it was a Mets thread of some form and near the end someone said "I hope Omar doesn't read this thread, get confused, and trade Milledge for a German WW2-era bomber, and a Spanish fighter pilot to be named later."
Ummm, Paul O'Neill had the passion of a 1000 burning suns. And besides, his step forward was truly exceptional.
But hey, if a Comet can circle the Earth every 100 odd years player advancement like this can happen in New York twice in 20 years. Right?
that's the story I've heard - Mattingly, Stick Michael and Showalter all encouraged him to go the other way more and focus on long ABs. Ironic, since he was now in one of the best parks for lefty pull hitting.
there was also that "hometown hero" factor, which I think weighed heavily on O'Neill in Cin.
I mentioned that trade because it was ripped by Bill James at the time, essentially he said that if you swap two directly comparable/equivalent players for eachother (which is what it looked at the time- the team getting the player who was younger by 4 years (later it turned out to be only 2 years) won by a mile,
O'Neil of course was that rare bird who both peaked late and had a slow decline
Needlessly trading for Shawn Green
Signing Mota to a two-year deal
Signing Julio Franco to a two-year deal
Allowing Jesus Flores to go unprotected
Continually allowing the likes of Lima Time and other assorted fodder to make multiple starts
Do these things, along with Milledge, outweigh the good moves? Probably not. But they do take away from the good moves because they're rather obvious poor moves that hurt the team. And as much as I generally like Omar, a competent GM simply does not make them.
What you mean just shrugging your shoulders and saying guys have to play better during an epic collapse isn't words of encouragement?
Except Church isn't that good against righties, and Milledge destroys lefties. You can't just leave it at that high a level of generalities. Despite Church's advantage against RHP, he had only a 114 OPS+ in 2007 while Milledge had a 105, and to any rational human being has enormous capacity to improve on that.
What this shows me is that Omar Minaya is just impatient. He, and the Mets, are totally unwilling to wait for a player to develop and mature, and to believe in his ability to break out. It was perfectly OK to take blah performance from Shawn Green last year, which was going to get the Mets exactly nowhere except to the end of his contract. But to accept so-so performance from Milledge, which was going to get them to the GOOD stuff from Milledge as the reward for their patience was, apparently, beyond them. So now they'll accept it from Ryan Church because . . . why again? Because he's a more acceptable placeholder for Carlos Gomez or F-Mart than Milledge would have been? Why is that?
Signing Mota to a two-year deal
Signing Julio Franco to a two-year deal
Allowing Jesus Flores to go unprotected
Continually allowing the likes of Lima Time and other assorted fodder to make multiple starts
Bell/Ring for trash
Owens/Lindstrom for trash
(I have to admit, I was totally wrong about those guys; I thought they wouldn't do squat and the Orioles would be terrible in 2007. Boy was I mistaken.)
Oh quit it already. LF blew in 08 for the O's. No one is surprised.
Oh, for God's sake. Yeah, because that's the mistake . . . not bringing back Paul ####### LoDuca. What a couple of nimrods. As you can see, other teams have been in SUCH a rush to sweep in and add him to solve their catching problems.
It's nice to know that some people are 100x stupider than the guy running the Mets. Unfortunately, they have a mike and the public airwaves at their disposal.
Omar gets locked in on a "need" and focuses so tightly on it that he loses all sense of proportion between the need and what he's giving up to fill it.
He wanted a "good defensive catcher" to be "strong up the middle" so much that it's puzzling. One can't help but wonder if the pitching staff (read Wagner) got his ear on that one, which is very scary.
What is he saying, that the Citi-Wilpons ordered him to get rid of someone who didn't fit the corporate image (Milledge) this time, too, just the way he did in that trade (Anna Benson)? That would be the only parallel I can think of. Might even be honest, too.
Wagner was quoted earlier this very week as saying he hoped Omar didn't trade Milledge, which seemed promising at the time.
LoDuca didn't fit in and he's gone.
I think the point was that if you sign LoDuca you don't need to make this move. Not that I understand why Omar needed to make this move anyway.
We all hate this trade. We all understand why this is a bad trade. But Church has a .285/.366/.521 batting line against righties the last two seasons in 575 plate appearances. He is very good against righties.
Milledge did post a 105 OPS+ last season but with more AB against lefties than average.
For next season, I think Church is the better player. In 2009? Milledge.
WHERE THE #### WAS THAT?
Schneider=Benson
Church=Julio
Milledge=Maine
Damn straight. They did 73 times last year alone! What a couple a' winners! Break out the champagne, boys . . . nobody's gonna stop us now! Proven winners, the both of 'em.
#190: I'm not defending the Mets. I'm just trying to figure out Milledge's value.
I love me some copy-paste.
#199: So are you saying he is as good as Delmon Young? I don't think he's shown that.
#201: Adam Jones or Chris Young. Interesting. Chris Young showed some power in 2007, didn't he?
OK, look, Delmon Young just got traded in a deal where he and Garza were the centerpiece players, and people are saying that's pretty close to an even deal. So, what would have been a fair deal for Milledge?
Is the return for Milledge that much worse than what should be expected? I mean, we've got people here saying they want to move out of NYC over this deal. We've got people saying this is one of the five worst deals in recent memory. We've got people totally freaking out.
I'm not saying it was a good deal for the Mets, but is it that bad? Really?
Russlan asked why real-life GMs didn't value Milledge as high as the BBTF community values him. Any ideas on that?
I don't even think that. Milledge is good, and if they ever let him play, they'd see that.
Monationals are 106 games under since Schneider has been with them.
74 under since Church came aboard to teach Schneider how to win at a better clip.
Because it is a pretty meaningless phrase if taken literally, yet so common...
Maybe, but if so they took the most round-about, back-asswards way of making that point. Obviously they don't want to burn their bridges with GMs who are willing to call into talk radio shows, but they made almost no point of saying "Hey. This guy was regarded as one of the best prospects in the game, plays a defensively demanding position, is loved by scouts, is cost-controlled, and put up stats at age 22 in MLB that suggest future stardom. Why in hell did you trade him for a 29-year-old who can't hit lefties and Brad Ausmus mark 2?"
The deal sells low, does not upgrade the present, gives up huge potential, and actually takes on salary.
Is there any possible reason this trade makes sense for the Mets?
I think right now Milledge looks like the better player than Delmon Young.
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