The Mets are 1 up with four to play. Nothing that happened before this moment matters.

Don't give in the the defeatist attitude. It's only because you're trying to psychologically protect yourself from disaster. I've been guilty of the same for most of the season. But it's not time for that any longer. If you don't gamble big, you can't win big. For a team who's history is full of "ya gotta believe", fans don't have a lot of that now. And even if you think that doesn't hurt anything, it certainly doesn't help.

Take a chance. Dare to believe. Let's go Mets.

THURSDAY:
Cardinals (J. Piñeiro 5-4, 4.53) at Mets (P. Martínez 3-0, 2.57)
Braves (J. Smoltz 14-7, 2.95) at Phillies (K. Kendrick 9-4, 3.83)

SEASON:
NYM 87-71
PHI 86-72 (1 GB)

SEPTEMBER:
PHI 14-10
NYM 13-11

This team sucks and it can't be fixed this offseason.

I can't wait to see the sort of stuff that gets linked here tomorrow after the Mets blew a five run lead. Can the LA Times loan Plaschke to the NY Daily News for the rest of the week?

I also happen to think it's a good sign that I got my post in before NTN could post his comment.

It looked for a few innings there like Lo Duca had finally gotten through to them.

It's the terror of knowing
What the game is about
Watching some good Mets
Screaming 'Let me out'
Pray tomorrow gets us higher
Pressure on people
People at Shea

I know Boston has the Tobin Bridge Watch, shouldn't we have a NY equivalent?

I'm going to go with the Whitestone Bridge Watch

How can this be? Sam M. declared that the Mets were going to win today.

New York Mets 2007: The Revenge of Manny Acta.

No matter how you slice it, you gotta love a Nationals sweep of the Mets, especially since tonight's victory puts them at 72 wins on the season, one more than last year (minus Soriano, Johnson, Livan, Patterson, etc.) and way the hell more than everyone predicted. Acta for NL MOY.

RRockies have won 9 straight games and are leading 2-0. There will be a 3-way tie for the wild card if they win and the Padres lose.

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

It's not that the Mets are losing. They are just losing in absolutely the worst possible ways. Here's just a list of what has happened in Met losses since the beginning of the last Phillies-Met series.

Mets go up 2-0, blow lead.
Mets go up 3-1, blow lead.
Mets battle back from early 3-0 deficit to tie game at 5, immediately give up 5 runs.
Mets go up 4-0, blow lead.
Mets go up 4-0, blow lead.
Mets go up 1-0, blow lead.
Mets score 4 in the top of the ninth to take 7-4 lead, blow lead.
Mets score 6 runs in the bottom of the ninth, put tying run on 3rd, lose 10-9.
Mets go up 5-0, blow lead.

Seriously, this is cruel and unusual punishment. Every loss is a punch in a stomach. If the Mets end up missing the playoffs, this might be the biggest choke job in baseball history. It's not just the 7 game lead with 7 to go. It is the way they are losing these games.

It would be unfair to label the offense with the pitching staff. The offense has been excellent (80 runs in the last 13 games, Mets 4-9 during that stretch.)

Wouldn't it be cool if the Mets, Cubs and Diamondbacks all missed the playoffs?

It's karma for all the thread-jackings.

Seriously, this is cruel and unusual punishment. Every loss is a punch in a stomach.

Yup. And as I said in the chatter, I wouldn't wish this upon any fan of any team.

It's karma for all the thread-jackings.

That's the best explanation I've heard so far.

Seriously, I don't know how someone can think that Randolph or Peterson (or both) aren't going to get fired if the Mets blow this. Whether or not they deserve that fate can be debated, but from my perspective, there doesn't appear to be any easy scapegoat. It's been a collective team pitching failure. Someone's gonna pay the price for that and I tend to think that Omar's job is secure for the moment.

The conventional wisdom around NYC talk radio holds that El Duque has great guts in big games while Wagner tends to fold. It's rather hard to argue with that right now.

The past three days, the Nats were Mary Richards and the Mets were Lou Grant. In Queens, they hate spunk.

Every loss is a punch in a stomach.

Let's face it - if Mets fans have to suffer, they'd like to be regarded the way Red Sox fans once were. And between the way they've blown seasons over the last 10 years and the success the Yankees have enjoyed, they have a case.

But really - nobody cares. Once again the Mets serve no general purpose other than to be a punchline, and once again they are letting their fans down.

Let's face it - if Mets fans have to suffer, they'd like to be regarded the way Red Sox fans once were. And between the way they've blown seasons over the last 10 years and the success the Yankees have enjoyed, they have a case.

But really - nobody cares. Once again the Mets serve no general purpose other than to be a punchline, and once again they are letting their fans down.

It doesn't have to be that way. I hate the resignation to that line of thought. It's a loser's mentality.

You know, the Mets are in first place, and have a winning record this month. 1964 Phillies or 2007 Brewers this isn't.

Pedro on the mound tomorrow. If they can't win tomorrow, they're done IMO.

You know, the Mets are in first place, and have a winning record this month.

Has any team blown a 7-game lead with 17 to play?

It doesn't have to be that way. I hate the resignation to that line of thought. It's a loser's mentality.

The fans aren't playing the games dude. The only loser's mentality has been occuring on the Shea Stadium field the past few nights.

What's truly sad to my mind is that so many people care so much, and are having their hearts completely broken in a way mere losing cannot do, and no one else will give two thoughts to that because the Mets aren't "sexy" enough or whatever.

I also wanted to add, whereas I haven't given up, the question does need to be posed... is Rick Peterson really a good pitching coach? I know hardly anyone this side of Dial says otherwise, but the disaster of the last several weeks, combined with the pitchers that Peterson has played a role in acquiring and getting rid of, really makes one wonder.

Of course, the problem is speculating what role Peterson really has in player acquisition and disposal, but there is evidence to indicate that his opinion looms rather large. I've been pretty much a Peterson supporter (not blindly so, however), but this season has made me reevaluate my position. To what extent is yet to be determined.

The fans aren't playing the games dude. The only loser's mentality has been occuring on the Shea Stadium field the past few nights.

Fair enough. But as only a fan, all I can do is try and support the team, even when they might not deserve it. My negativity will not help and logically, my positive thoughts won't either, but that's where the whole "believing" thing comes in.

Yeah, I know, it's crazy and I'm not expecting anyone to understand. But what else can I do? I won't resign myself to "fate".

RRockies have won 9 straight games and are leading 2-0. There will be a 3-way tie for the wild card if they win and the Padres lose.

Best team nobody's talking about. I'm watching the Colorado - LA game right now (Utah's FSN carries Rockies games as well as the occasional D-Backs game). Funny thing is that here on campus you see absolutely nobody with Rockies gear on, not so much as a filmsy cap. I remember seeing Tigers hats everywhere in summer 2006, and you see Brewers and Cubs hats galore. Just an observation.

The Padres are up 8-1. This Giants team is a total tear-down job.

Pat Misch gave up all 8 runs and left in the 5th. Here's what Rotowire says about this hot prospect: "Misch is a finesse lefty who probably best projects as a long reliever. The 25-year-old had a 4.02 ERA, with a 57:11 K:BB over 65 IP in Triple-A last season."

Ah, that's just the guy you want starting a game with playoff implications for five or six teams in the last week of the season.

#23 - haplo

Do keep in mind that there are many people whose hearts leap with joy at the thought of a.) the Mets crashing and burning; b.) the prospect of Mets fans' hearts being shattered (chiefly the hearts of the insufferable Mets threadjackers at BTF...maybe that will teach them a little humility). I would water my lawn with the briny-sweet tears of Mets fans if I could.

I just realized that the Mariners are the team that is going to throw piles of money at Kyle Lohse this offseason. Book it.

Do keep in mind that there are many people whose hearts leap with joy at the thought of a.) the Mets crashing and burning; b.) the prospect of Mets fans' hearts being shattered. I would water my lawn with the tears of Mets fans if I could.

I won't even get into the perverse psychology of that. But needless to say, go to hell.

I can't wait to see the sort of stuff that gets linked here tomorrow after the Mets blew a five run lead. Can the LA Times loan Plaschke to the NY Daily News for the rest of the week?

"Mets Clubhouse Not Going The Wright Way", Bill Plaschke, 9/27/07

It's the little things.

"Some of these kids don't know how to move trash cans," said Carlos Beltran. "They should know how to respect their elders."

At least Blow Duca finally got through to Beltran.

#29 - Banta

Sometimes a team's fans need to be laid low. Very, very low. Best we kill this whole "Mets" thing at the start before it gets off the ground.

I won't even get into the perverse psychology of that. But needless to say, go to hell.

Banta, don't let this stuff bother you that much. At the end of the day, it is just baseball. The Mets are a diversion from real life. One that I really, really like but still only a diversion. It isn't a matter of life or death. Or even real happiness. I hope you remember that.

#31 - Rain Dog

[you edited, rendering this bit of over-the-top hyperbole meaningless]

Banta, don't let this stuff bother you that much. At the end of the day, it is just baseball. The Mets are a diversion from real life. One that I really, really like but still only a diversion.

Oh, agreed, but if this is truly the last four games the Mets will play this year, I'm gonna go down swinging.

I don't really want Esoteric to go to hell. Just a figurative sort of hell.

I believe in Pedro tomorrow.

I don't really want Esoteric to go to hell. Just a figurative sort of hell.

He's a Nats fan. The last two years, save for the last month, have been pretty close!

Sometimes a team's fans need to be laid low. Very, very low.

It's not as if, say, each of the last 20 seasons or so hasn't done that already.

I seriously don't get the hate. So many other teams' fans talk so much more trash it ain't funny, yet it's the Mets fans who get pegged for being unjustifiably arrogant somehow.

Sometimes a team's fans need to be laid low.

And some fans just need to get laid.

Low hanging fruit. Yum.

I just wonder if Lassus is still gonna be optimistic. Probably not, considering it appears that only one of us Mets Primates can hold the mantle at any given time.

#37 - Chris:

Bingo! Not hell, so much as having to deal with people constantly heaping piles of dogsh!t on my team (and me having to grudgingly agree with them).

Yup. And as I said in the chatter, I wouldn't wish this upon any fan of any team.

I would. Mets fans. Well, not necessarily the Mets fans here, but the Mets, and by logical extension their fans, both here and elsewhere.

Hm, Esoteric, your being a Nationals fan excuses your comments then. I apologize for even suggesting a figurative hell.

Well, not necessarily the Mets fans here, but the Mets, and by logical extension their fans, both here and elsewhere.

Uh, that's a confusing sentence. I need clarification to decide whether to curse you with figurative hell or not!

Pat Misch gave up all 8 runs and left in the 5th. Here's what Rotowire says about this hot prospect: "Misch is a finesse lefty who probably best projects as a long reliever. The 25-year-old had a 4.02 ERA, with a 57:11 K:BB over 65 IP in Triple-A last season."

Ah, that's just the guy you want starting a game with playoff implications for five or six teams in the last week of the season.

Uh, yes. You're out of the race, and you want to see what Misch can do. Not every team exists to serve your needs.

Uh, that's a confusing sentence. I need clarification to decide whether to curse you with figurative hell or not!

1) I hate the Mets
2) I like many Mets fans that post on Primer, some are among my favorites
3) I hate most other Mets fans
4) I wish for the Mets to lose in historically embarassing fashion
5) So even though #2, I wish this on them.

Alrighty, I think that adds up to figurative hell for you. But now that I'm starting to get drunk, I'm, uh... not really sure. Can someone else do the math for me?

No figurative hell for Jeff.

He's gonna end up in the real one anyway.

Well, I got my comeuppance for badmouthing Pat Misch, because Josh Fogg is about to pitch a shutout in the other important game.

The past three days, the Nats were Mary Richards and the Mets were Lou Grant. In Queens, they hate spunk.

Leaving the Phillies as Ted Baxter? I don't like this metaphor, based on the ending.

No figurative hell for Jeff.

He's gonna end up in the real one anyway.

My personal hell would be working for Bobby V again, so when we both go, that may happen.

BTW, this has to be some kind of record. There are only 4 days left in the season and no team in the NL has clinched a playoff spot. This has to be some kind of record.

EDIT- Leave me alone, CA. I'm disraught!

It might even be some kind of record.

Is a record being set today?

NY Times: (RR)

This nerve-racking season, through 158 games, could end in a limp to the playoffs or with an unprecedented collapse, and the Mets have four games left to decide their fate. If they lose tonight and the Phillies, who defeated the Braves, 5-2, win, they will not hold sole possession of first place atop the National League East for the first time since May 15.

No team has ever missed the postseason after having a seven-game lead in its division or league with 17 to play, but the Mets are in danger of doing exactly that.
...
Despite spending six weeks in the minors, [Joe] Smith has still allowed more inherited runners to score than anyone else in the National League, and consecutive run-scoring singles by Ryan Zimmerman and Austin Kearns drew the Nationals to 6-5.

This was an unlikely turn of events. I sympathize, I really do.

I don't understand this supposed scorn for Mets fans- could someone clue me in? I'm 30, grew up in the Midwest, and during the '85 pennant race with STL I became an avid fan. I know going to Wrigley in the late 80's the Cubs fans HATED the Mets with a passion, though I just assumed this was because they were always at or near the top during those thoroughly enjoyable days of watching Shawon Dunston through 10 feet over Mark Grace's head and Mitch Williams self-implode on a daily basis. Is this a Yankees rivalry thing? Or complete imagination?

It'll get lost in the mega-issues of this race, regardless of outcome, but it sickens me to see what the Mets have done to Joe Smith. Once he lost effectiveness and confidence enough to get him demoted, he NEVER should have been recalled and used in these big games. They should have given him a number of appearances and/or innings in New Orleans then sent him home. I can't imagine him recovering from these devastating implosions. I don't know who to blame, but somebody messed up real real bad here. I'm crushed for the kid.

and during the '85 pennant race with STL I became an avid fan. I know going to Wrigley in the late 80's the Cubs fans HATED the Mets with a passion

Then you missed 1984.

If Pedro wins tomorrow, the Mets will win the division. If not...well, I don't want to think about that.

The past three days, the Nats were Mary Richards and the Mets were Lou Grant. In Queens, they hate spunk.

Leaving the Phillies as Ted Baxter? I don't like this metaphor, based on the ending.

Nah, I think of the Phillies more as Murray Slaughter -- possessing a solid work ethic, but resigned to be utterly fatalistic about life.

Nah, I think of the Phillies more as Murray Slaughter -- possessing a solid work ethic, but resigned to be utterly fatalistic about life.

This leaves the Marlins as the likely Ted Baxter, superficially talented, very little baseball intelligence. And come to think of it, Atlanta is a good Sue Ann Nivens- past its prime, but clearly on the make.

The Nats' play against the Mets has a Georgette quality to it.

Let's hope the Mets don't turn out to be Chuckles the Clown.

Washington Post: (RR)

Somewhere in the deep, evil recesses of the minds of people who despise the New York Mets -- Hello, Philadelphia! -- someone might have drawn up a scenario that could have tortured all of Queens like this. It is, however, unlikely, because when the Mets awoke in September and looked at the latter part of their schedule, they must have said: "Six games against the Nationals in the last two weeks? We'll clinch it there."

But consider what has happened in those final two weeks. The Washington Nationals and Mets played six times, and the Nationals won five.
...
[Luis] Ayala was on only because, when the Nationals called down to get closer Chad Cordero to warm up, Cordero rose -- and promptly threw up in his glove. Save the jokes about how that's what the Mets were doing all week. This was a serious situation.

"It was kind of weird," Acta said.

Cordero said he hadn't felt bad all day. But when he rose to warm up, he felt something. Some vomit escaped. "I grabbed my glove," he said, "and everything else came out."

Will Duque be available to pitch in relief tomorrow? I actually have some confidence about tomorrow. I always think the Braves are going to win with Smoltz on the mound and the Mets have their talisman on the mound. If they can't get a positive result tomorrow, it's over.

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

I know you guys are down, but you've gotta admit--this is hilarious.

Guys, I gotta tell you: For all the drama, blown leads, teams getting hot etc. the fact remains that you've got a one game lead with four to play. I'm pretty sure the Phillies, Rockies, and Brewers would give Sam M.'s left nut (yes, your name finally came up on the docket so drop 'em, bite hard on this stick and we'll be as quick as possible) to be where the Mets are right now.

I'm a recent convert to Phillie-dom (blame Mike Gill) and as such I'm watching the Padres more closely than the Mets because I simply cannot see the Phils overtaking them with four to play. The Phillies need to off Atlanta tonight then deal with the Nats and hope the Brewers can take out the Padres. That's more plausible than seeing the Mets lose to the Cards followed by getting thumped by a team that's 5-10 against the Metropolitans this year.

One loss is a lot more devastating to the Phils than the Mets since worst-case scenario you're tied for first with 3 left whereas it means the Phillies are either 1-2 GB with three to play.

Best Regards

John

I'm rooting for ties in all 3 divisions + a tie for the WC, which would set off 2-3 days of 1-game playoffs that would just be nutty.

I'm leaning towards...

I would water my lawn with the briny-sweet tears of Mets fans if I could.

I would advise against using anything briny to water your lawn. As the gardener in Chinatown said, "Bad for glass".
But I appreciate the sentiment :)

There are only 4 days left in the season and no team in the NL has clinched a playoff spot.

King Kaufman was right; September baseball just isn't exciting any more.

No team has ever missed the postseason after having a seven-game lead in its division or league with 17 to play

Well, the 1951 Dodgers blew a 6-game lead with 16 to play. And we know how the Mets like to lay claim to the whole Dodger legacy.

I suppose the '51 Dodgers did technically get into the postseason, though ...

Wouldn't it be cool if the Mets, Cubs and Diamondbacks all missed the playoffs?

No.

1964 Phillies or 2007 Brewers this isn't.

I wouldn't quite compare the Brewers with the '64 Phils. They led by 8.5 in June, but then began a long slide that's had them in a dogfight since early August.

The Phils blew, what--a seven game lead with 10 to play? Not quite the same thing.

I wouldn't quite compare the Brewers with the '64 Phils.

Also, the 2007 Brewers haven't actually missed the playoffs yet. Mind you, I'm inclined to believe they will, but if they rally and defeat the Cubs, then they become a new version of--jeeze, I don't know. What's the historical comparison for a team that had a big lead early, blew it, then rallied to win out of nowhere?

I don't understand this supposed scorn for Mets fans- could someone clue me in? I'm 30, grew up in the Midwest, and during the '85 pennant race with STL I became an avid fan. I know going to Wrigley in the late 80's the Cubs fans HATED the Mets with a passion

There you go. A lot of us still hate the Mets.

The Phils blew, what--a seven game lead with 10 to play? Not quite the same thing.

As one who was 13 at the time, these figures are burned into my very essence: 6.5 game lead with 12 to go. The Phils lost 10 in a row, before winning their last 2. They knocked the Reds off in the last 2, allowing the Cards to squeak in by beating the Mets on the last day.
Oh, and it still hurts but not as bad as at the time.

No team has ever missed the postseason after having a seven-game lead in its division or league with 17 to play, but the Mets are in danger of doing exactly that.

OK--I checked it; it was a 6.5 game lead with 12 to play that the '64 Phillies blew. That's a bigger collapse than 7/17, not that the latter wouldn't be pretty epic.

What's the historical comparison for a team that had a big lead early, blew it, then rallied to win out of nowhere?

The '78 Red Sox almost did that, I think. The NL Central's been sort of a poor man's version of that race (minus the head-to-head series at the end).

Whether any team's actually DONE what you describe, I don't know, and I'd really rather not think about it.

King Kaufman was right; September baseball just isn't exciting any more.

Heh. No kidding. Has there ever been this much angst spread out among fans of this many teams in a single league at this stage of the season?

Ah, that's just the guy you want starting a game with playoff implications for five or six teams in the last week of the season.

Better that than Jason Marquis or Steve Trachsel. Especially when the latter two are pitching for a team trying to get INTO the playoffs.

I would water my lawn with the tears of Mets fans if I could.

That'd probably kill your grass. Very high sodium content.

The Cards makeup game could be a gift to the Mets--that Cardinal team is a steaming pile of crap.

And dammit, Edmundo beat me to the "kill the grass" comment. And further showed me up with a dead-on "Chinatown" reference.

*hides head in shame*

At this point, my thought is "eh"
whether the Mets make the playoffs or not is pretty irrelevant, right now the Mets are not a good team having a slump, right NOW they are an awful team, a good hitting team, but a staff that after 145+ games is one of the 2 or 3 worst in baseball- and that isn't going to change anytime between now and next season. They could win 2 out of the next 4 and get in because the Phillies do likewise- but it won't matter, they are going to lose the first round in 3 or 4 games.

They are kind of like the reverse of the 2006 Cards- their regular season record really didn't matter once they got in- the team that played in the playoffs was more akin to the 100 win team of 2004-05.

Screw this. We're going to win tonight with Pedro, and then we'll sweep the Marlins over the weekend, securing the best record in the NL in the process. Believe it.

Will Duque be available to pitch in relief tomorrow? I actually have some confidence about tomorrow. I always think the Braves are going to win with Smoltz on the mound and the Mets have their talisman on the mound. If they can't get a positive result tomorrow, it's over.

Over? No. But the Mets have one last chance to control their own destiny.

Mets win, Phillies lose, Mets are up two with three to go. They can still lose, but it requires them to be swept and the Phillies to sweep.

But if they lose and the Phillies win, it is just two teams hosting losing clubs. That's a small enough advantage for the Mets that you couldn't say safely what is likely to happen.

Mets win/Phils win, or Mets lose/Phils lose, leaving it 1 with 3 to go, is somewhere in the middle of certain and total crapshoot.

Amazingly, however, the Mets with a strong last four games can secure home field throughout the NL playoffs. Go Pitssburgh/Colorado!

my animus towards the mets goes back to the 80s too. granted, they won it all in 86 but they were otherwise notorious underachievers if you believed all the hype about their lineup, meanwhile the cardinals were winning several pennants at the mets expense. it was a joy to see them blow it against the cards in the late stages of 85 and 87, then see them drop the nlcs against a truly bad dodger team in 88.
(it also didn't help my state of mind to see keith hernandez traded away for nothing; even learning the reasons behind it didn't improve my mood, esp. when he got all that attention in NY.)
the mets in those days reminded me of what somebody on the bulls said about the knicks back in the 90s: they walk around like they won the world championship when they haven't won anything.
still, i'd rather see the mets win than the yankees. go figure.