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Here's the deal. I think they need two wins. Two should get them at least a play-off (maybe two shots -- one for the NL East, then one against the Brewers for the WC). I believe they can get one of them from Santana. The question is . . . can they get the other one?
Pelfrey v. Volstad. Volstad pitched very well against the Mets a month ago, a game the Mets ended up rallying to win with 4 in the 9th after going in trailing 2-1. He's the kind of guy they notoriously struggle against when they haven't seen him before . . . but hey, now they have. I expect a better performance against him, although likely not a battering by any means. Pelfrey, meanwhile, has been battered by the Fish, but by all rights he ought to be successful against them -- a right-handed, ground ball pitcher who neutralizes their strengths. FWIW, his last outing against them -- though they lost -- was a solid one, on Aug. 30.
TBA v. Nolasco. Who the hell knows??? Brandon Knight and his so-so stuff, or Nelson Figueroa and his slop? Or Niese and pray for his curve to be sharp? Nolasco is a good, quality pitcher, and though hardly unbeatable he certainly gives the Fish the match-up edge on whomever Manuel decides to go with.
The likeliest result of the first two is a split. I'd take that right now, and hope it's good enough to leave us even with either the Phillies OR the Brewers going into Sunday. Then put my money on Johan. That's a good place to have it.
I think it increases the value of MLB if the Rays start winning and build their fan base.
I am appalled the Red Sox are fighting the best interests of MLB for their own pecuniary gain.
mother clusterfcuker here
youneverknow
astros might could win the next 4 - they've suddenly remembered how to hit. THIS astros fan, by the way, said that drayton greedy mclane SHOULD have had alternate plans ready in case ike did NOT hit corpus or further south. but NOOOOOO. and there was NO excuse, NONE for bud not allowing games in arlington
but hey, it is over and done with
Lassus Posted: September 26, 2008 at 11:37 AM (#2956752)
Women whine way less than men, anyhow, retro. ;-)
correctamundo
we just say FINE!!!! and make u pay
and retro darling,
i'm not sure how i could make you understand that having a vagina is NOT a bad thing...
Three-run pinch-hit home run during Atlanta's six-run fifth.
Mea culpa. I missed that completely -- my bad.
Please tell me how the Cubs have been laying down in any of the games since they clinched.
he means that lou shouldn't give any of the regulars any time off to rest before the playoffs so that his players can go into them all sore and beat up and not rested just like all the other teams. so there would be no advantage to having a better team or clinching early.
shrug
if it was my astros who had clinched like that i would think that coop would need his ass kicked up and down houston for not resting guys.
Of all the NL teams, I think it would be in MLB's best interest to have the Cubs play in the World Series. The attention that would draw and the ratings they would get would be greater than any other NL team in contention right now. In that sense, Lou doing his best for the Cubs to get to the WS is in the best interest of the entire league.
But that last point is true for every team on some level. Say the Dodgers were playing the Mets in NY yesterday and Torre played Manny and he got hurt, MLB is worse overall with a Manny-less playoffs.
- patiently
of COURSE it isn't ok to give your guy a day off because Real Men like Perfect Person Cal Ripken don't never get tired or need a day off and anyone who isn't cal needs vagisil
Nothing hurts baseball more than one team not actively trying to win. Which is what the Cubs did last night.
6 regulars didn't play in the same game with playoff implications. Theriot, Lee, Ramirez, Wood, Soto, Marmol.
I understand players need to rest, just don't rest them all at the same time and at least make them available for pinch hitting duty.
there is bout nothing that can make me believe that the cubs were tanking the game. and you are talking to a SERIOUS cubs hater
and there is seriously nothing that can make me believe that guys who are not regulars are not out there trying their dammdest to do well - if anything they got more motive then the regulars
You'd think so, but check out their splits. The Fish crush right handed pitching this year (.780 vs .707, and it's not only because of the lefties.
Vs. RHP
*Baker .898
*Jacobs .862
Uggla .956 (huge reverse split, even in '06 and '07)
Cantu .791
Ramirez .977 (.803 vs. L, big reverse split in '07 as well)
Willingham .830
Ross .760
*Hermida .726
Maybin 1.174 (normal split in minors)
Not looking forward to this weekend.
Exactly. Hoffpaiur, Pie, Howry, Hart, and Gaudin are all trying to make the postseason roster. Fukudome and Fontenot are fighting for playing time. I'll give you Hill and McGehee, but neither are guaranteed any sort of job next season so they have to do everything they can.
I've already explained why most of those guys you mentioned weren't playing, especially in that weather. I still don't buy the integrity of the game ######## or think the Cubs were actively trying to lose. And it's an especially unique situation where the Cubs are playing the 2 main wild card competititors after the games don't matter. So both the Mets and Brewers are getting to face the same situation.
So a team should never play youngsters to get an idea of what they have? He should always bring in his best closer - i.e. the Yankees should bring Rivera into every high leverage situation they have, even if he pitches in 110 games? Managers manage the season as well as the games ALL the time. Go back this season and you'll find games where teams didn't field the best team they could have for all sorts of reasons. It seems to me the Cubs reasons at this point are pretty damned good.
So, I disagree that the manager has to do everything to win. As long as the guys on the field are playing all out, I'm cool with it.
There's also the chance you just want an argument and don't believe what you're saying, so I think this is where I bow out.
In fact, the Cubs lied down so aggressively that they nearly took the game into extra innings.
Anyway, I don't think that running the best team in the league into the ground in a deluge is any way to "promote baseball." The Cubs did their job, and they played more than competitive baseball in New York this week. Period.
There was no reason for at least PH appearances, the odds of injury are infinitesimal.
Then nothing I can say will matter.
Damnit Sam...I went to lunch and was about to throw that in his face and you stole it.
Don't let facts get in the way though.
Not if the player is Jason Kendall. I think Brewers management is afraid of the guy.
In Kendall's defense he has the biggest hit of the season to date. On Tuesday night with Mota having given up a 2 run homer (what a shocker!) Kendall came up with 2 out and drove in the tying run. For a team that had not had a hit with runners in scoring position what seemed like a month, couldn't come from behind if they were playing Bruce and Steve in the Castro and were staring at elimination with a loss this hit saved the season.
Between that and the defense Kendall has been a HUGE plus.
Go figure.....
One PH appearance in two games from the team's best hitter is vindication of your point?
EDIT: Lee, Ramirez, DeRosa and Soriano all got at least one start in the last two days.
Soto has been resting a hand problem.
And the benefit is none at best, negative at worst(a case where the Cubs have to play a game Monday against the Astros cause the Cubs kept beating the Mets, a game which I'm sure you'd demand the Cubs throw Harden on short rest in for the integrity of the game)
Apparently you and Pinella have the same understanding of sport.
The real issue is whether any comparison between the way Bobby Cox managed and the way Lou Piniella manages makes sense anyway. Let's assume, for the sake of discussion, that Cox DID approach the Philly series differently than Lou did the Mets' series. So what? They had different things at stake. Lou had to worry about the post-season implications of his decisions, including the potential to get a key player injured (especially in last night's slop). He had to consider the need for rest, especially for his catcher and for any other guys nursing injuries. Cox had no such considerations -- his team is in the classic spoiler role, with nothing to play for. Piniella has everything to play/manage for. If he made decisions with his own team's best interests at heart, then that is totally appropriate. That is the very definition of the "integrity of the game." You may disagree with those decisions, but the key is his motivation. Does anyone believe he was motivated by anything other than trying to maximize the Cubs' chances of ultimate success in 2008? I don't doubt that for a nanosecond.
To me, that's the end of the discussion.
it'd be one thing if he just tanked and admitted it. It's another thing to say you're going to uphold the standards of the game, and then not do it.
Florida has said they're going to play hard against the mets and will relish the spoiler roll.
If they roll out a lineup without Cantu/Uggla etc.. I'lld be just as pissed. Hanley I could understand b/c it's my understanding that he's hurt.
You are wrong.
One team lying down for another in a game with playoff implications doesn't not promote the game of baseball or the major league baseball franchise.
You are wrong to suggest that the Cubs are "lying down" for anybody, and I suspect the Mets would agree with me.
It is if you're a male baseball fan who constantly complains about how much his hurts. Otherwise, I agree with you.
You're a goddamned idiot. And a bitter, petty one at that.
I haven't said once the players were. I said the manager did. You nimrods don't seem to understand it. I can't wait to relish in your sorrow, when karma bites the cubs in the ass for this ########.
Thank you for sharing. Nobody gives a rat's ass.
You can't honestly say that it's appropriate that the Phillies and the Mets both had to play 7 games against the team in the NL with the best record (i had to rephrase that from my original description...) and that team played its best lineup in all 7 games against the phils and only 3 against the Mets (maybe 4....to secure home field - but definetly not 7).
I'll whine "not fair" all I need to, because I'm right.
Not that! I don't think I can live with myself if you follow through on this threat.
Do you get pissed when starters get a day off during the regular season? Why does that happen? It happens so players can get rested and hopefully play better in future games.
This isn't the 1904 Olympics, this isn't some amateur contest. Arguing for "the spirit of competition" seems a bit silly. The Cubs are supposed to risk the whole enchilada to uphold your sense of integrity?
The Cubs scored a ton of runs and split the series against a team that is above .500.
Yeah, I'm petty and bitter because my team won two of the last 4 world series. Yup got me.
I'm pissed because I watched a game last night, where one team was doing everything it could to win. The other didn't really care.
This is apparently the first year you've ever watched baseball. As AR pointed out, this is standard post-clinch stuff. Deal with it.
OK, you're petty and bitter for no particular reason. Whatever.
You're absolutely correct, because then it wouldn't matter. I don't give a rat's ass about who plays in games with no playoff implications once decided. If the Nat/Fish/Braves/Pirates/Reds/Rockies/Giants/Diamondbacks/Cardinals/Padres/Cubs pitch a high school guy against one another I don't really care for now. But any game between the Phils/Mets/Brewers ought to be played by both sides like it matters, because it does.
I can't wait to relish in your sorrow, when karma bites the cubs in the ass for this ########.
The Cubs haven't won anything in 100 years. What the hell can karma do to the Cubs? What is one more speck of dust on top of that mountain of futility?
Way to contradict yourself.
My best wishes for your female genital irritation to clear itself up posthaste.
But it doesn't matter to both sides. The Washington Nationals are playing games that don't matter, they have been for quite some time. ARe they supposed to sacrifice future development for you?
But I thought The Integrity of the Game™ demanded that all teams do whatever is necessary to win all games at all times?! Stick with the script, please.
that's your quote, not mine.
First of all, the Mets only played the Cubs six times, not seven.
Second, the fact is, that was the luck of the schedule, nothing else. The Mets got lucky that by the time they faced the Cubs the last series, they had clinched home field. That freed Lou Piniella to make certain decisions in the best interests of his team. Every manager has not only the right, but the obligation to do exactly that. If the schedule had reversed things, and had the Cubs playing the Mets first, THEN the Phillies, Piniella would have done the same thing he did, only the Phillies would have benefitted. Instead of the Mets. That's the luck of the draw, nothing more, nothing less.
And I'd have said exactly what I'm saying now: Piniella owes only one duty: to do what's best for HIS TEAM. The integrity of the game is protected when each manager tries to maximize his team's chances to win, as long as it has a chance to win. His job is to make every decision he can to try and hang a ####### World Series flag over Wrigley Field. If he makes even a single decision that is adverse to that, he is compromising the integrity of the game. Bless him, Piniella is doing what's good for the Cubs, and counting on Uncle Charlie to look out for the Phils, Jerry Manuel to look out for the Mets, and Dale Sveum to tend to the Brewers. That's the way it should be.
Except our friends Harris and MHS look out for everybody's business, I guess.
So you acknowledge that it's not really about the integrity of the game, but about your selective interest in particular outcomes. Thanks for the concession.
But THE SCHEDULE'S NOT FAIR!!! WHAAAAAA!! WHAAAAA!!!!! WHAAAAAA!
Why are you mad at the Cubs? Pinella is only following Selig's orders as sent through semaphore by Jimmy Hoffa of the Knights Templar.
Wrong. His duty is whatever High Standards Boy says it is, or alternately, whatever benefits Charlie Manuel's team. Don't you know anything, or care about The Integrity of the Game™?
In instances where it doesn't affect post-season chances, I concede. Duh.
Are you just scared/angry that the phils took 4 of 7 from your precious cubbies (at full strength no less....) this year and led about 75% of the innings in those serieses?
Also not fair: Letting your ace get beat by the corpse of Mike Hampton.
I haven't said once the players were. I said the manager did. You nimrods don't seem to understand it. I can't wait to relish in your sorrow, when karma bites the cubs in the ass for this ########.
I understand your point, I just disagree with it. I've gone over why each of the guys didn't play yesterday, but I'll do it again and in more detail. Soto and DeRosa have injuries, so they were both out (DeRosa's out this whole weekend too). Lou's been very careful all year playing Soriano and Ramirez in the rain (both have missed time this year with leg injuries), so I think deferring to the side of caution is fine; we probably would have seen one or both start and/or PH if the weather wasn't so terrible. Marmol's been heavily overused all season and should have at least a week off, I think this 3 or 4 game stretch where he hasn't pitched is the longest this season for him; I can see why you'd want to see him in the 8th last night, but he really needs to rest before the playoffs. I think you may have a point when it comes to Lee and Wood. However...
Wood hasn't come in for any save opportunities in the 8th this season or any save chances longer than 1 inning (he has pitched 2 innings a couple of times, but never on back to back days, IIRC, and he pitched Wednesday). He has had made appearances in tied games late, but he's also an inury risk so I don't begrudge Lou for not using him in the 9th (and there was no chance he was pitching in the 8th). Howry started the year as a 7th/8th inning guy and Lou's been trying to shoehorn him back into that role all season (you should see how often we complain about that in any number of threads). I think Lou really thought he gave them a shot to win last night, no matter how bad we think Howry is Lou still thinks of him as a go to guy. Lee could have PH last night, as I said it was his first night off in a long, long time. Lou wanted to give him Wednesday off, but Lee talked him out of it. I would have used him instead of Ward in the top of the 9th, but Lou was going to the L/R advantage which is fairly standard for him.
The only reason so many people last night sat is because of the weather. Normal weather, I think it's a different lineup. It's the first time (outside of the day after clinching lineup, which is how every team plays those games) where that many regulars have sat, and I guarantee you it's the last time. That's why I don't buy the integrity of the game stuff, because I believe Lou is still trying to win but last night was a whole different animal. But he's earned the luxury of playing it safe in that type of environment. If he ran out the same lineup as this past Sunday, then I think you have a legit gripe.
Not that it has a damned thing to do with the topic of discussion, but to answer your question:
No. I'll take my chances against your boys any day of the feckin' week. Hell, the Nationals took 3 of 6 from the Cubs this year, too.
They'll get 3 more. Who know's which team will show up. You might get the AAA cubs. We'll see if Lou cares about those three games.
Take it to a ####### fanboy board. this is childish at best.
Then I remembered that Harris is one of Dial's coworkers. Must be something in the water down there.
WHAAAAA!!!! WHAAAAA!!! WHAAAAAA!! MY PU$$Y HURTS SO FECKIN' MUCH!!!!
yep. it makes us smarter/more honest than the rest of you.
Throughout all this there was the Phillies, who I was happy to let be East champs without objection. Then Harris came along.
I don't think you know what "hypocrisy" means.
I can't believe I'm going to say this ... I've found Beano to be somewhat reasonable and far less trollish recently. I don't know if I'm just missing certain conversations, or if it's just because the Cubs are basically troll-proof this season, or if he's really turned over a new leaf (or a combination of all three).
On the flip side to your conundrum, on one side you have HW and on the other side you have Sam M. The Phillies (though they have many good fans here) don't have an equivalent to those two.
Hey. What about Russlan and Rasky and a whole bunch of other perfectly pleasant -- dare I say, even fun -- Mets' chatterers? And Cubs' fans should certainly appreciate the whole need to balance heartache part of the equation, which tilts in favor of the Mets and Brewers after last year's debacles, and away from the Phillies.
I submit the answer for anyone with a conscience is clear: Mets in the East, Brewers for the WC.
Therefore, it has no business in this thread.
Wasn't trying to cast aspersions on the Mets--I told you just last night you're my favorite group of opposing chatterers. The comparison was more in terms of what's been my ambivalence toward the Phillies (notwithstanding their abject domination of my beloved Cubs in winning the regular season series by an entire game, which surely has caused me many an agonizing therapy session and sleepless night) versus my usual hatred of the Brewers, and how it's been affected by the total crybabiness of certain posters in this thread.
Frighteningly enough, I'm starting to agree with you. Of course, the Nats'll probably lie down for the Phillies this weekend, so it'll be a moot point.
Soriano: 10
Lee: 10
Ramirez: 6
The Braves (2 games):
McCann: 9
Chipper: 1
Your paragon of athletic virtue demonstrably falsifies your factual assertion yet you continue ahead with your agrument. Hypocrisy, indeed.
Yet he sat against the right handed starter on Wednesday.
no New York in the playoffs, at all, would be most excellent.
Now that's just hitting below the belt.
and I'll ask again ...have you reserved the Dusty Baker page yet?
Thats Atlanta Ace, Mike Hampton to you! 32 ip, 3.66 ERA over the last 5 starts!
I have a sneaky feeling he is coming back to Atlanta next year.
Yet he sat against the right handed starter on Wednesday.
Both his shoulders are gone now. He is going to have an MRI. Team doc has said it might be tendinitis, but worried that it might be structural. And he has been playing with that for 2 months now. Just got too bad. He has been complaining about not being able to make throws across the diamond since the ASG.
No. If they hadn't just made it last year, and if Mets and Brewers' fans hadn't just been through the collapses of a lifetime in 2007 and don't deserve to have it happen again just a year later, THEN Philly would be worthy of a playoff team. As it is, they are third in line of the teams that are in the running. Now, if it were a choice between the Phillies and the Braves, you'd have a different case.
Hey, I am not part of this inane argument. Just was whiling away my afternoon watching this pissing contest, and jumping in with some facts! And as for who the Braves' hitter is since Aug 1, I would point out the guy with 21 game hitting streak ( 1100+ OPS during that ). And McCann who looks finished still is logging his 4 days out of 5. And Jurrjens and Campillo are pitching even though the pitch count pundits are calling for them to be shut down. Basically everyone but Chipper is playing, and Chipper is still pinchhitting.
Not that boring length thesis means I disagree with what Piniella did last night. I was surprised Harden stayed out as long as he did.
True. And there really isn't anyway to correct that. The only people on the Cubs who likely care about their performance at this point are guys trying to win playing time. If you put the regulars out there they probably sing songs and watch for hot women in the crowd more than they focus on the game. They've won all they can win until the playoffs start. Period.
Even if that wasn't displaying integrity, which I don't agree with, there is damned little integrity and sportsmanship in professional sports or, really, professional competition of any kind. If you like, point it out, but whining about it is unseemly.
Oh, no, that wasn't directed at you by any means.
EDIT: and detailed explanations from people who follow the teams in question are always welcome. Thank you.
Braun--trunk muscles
Hardy--hand
Parra-tired arm (expected but boy has he fallen off a cliff)
Hart--he's making MY head hurt watching him bat, Jesus H. Chr*st boy
Unless the explanations don't support the point you're arguing and you decide to ignore the post. Hypothetical "you," of course.
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