Jose wants us to believe that he's actually read the report?

G. Mitchell or J. Canseco? You must pick one or the other though neither of them are to be what they claim. I said that.

surely canseco has done enough that he is worth executing by now right?

Canseco just wants for publicity after not having some for 2-3 years. He'd say anything. If he knew it for a fact, it would have been in the 1st book

This makes me sad. This stuff is going to continue, there was zero point to the Mitchell Report. It even got baseball back in front of Congress.

I choose Mitchell. I've read a lot of things with reasons to be skeptical about these reports, but none of them have ever suggested or hinted that Mitchell is not what he claims. I don't know what you mean precisely, but that seems uncalled for.

Is this the first direct accusation targeting A-Rod?

Didn't Canseco mention him once beofre? If so, was Canseco ever in a postion to have firsthand knowledge of what A-Rod was and was not doing?

Maybe NJ would like to give it one last go with the chair and off Canseco.

surely canseco has done enough that he is worth executing by now right?

I literally laughed out loud. I feel no shame.

Didn't Canseco mention him once beofre? If so, was Canseco ever in a postion to have firsthand knowledge of what A-Rod was and was not doing?

Canseco mentioned him before.

Canseco also claimed that A-Rod told him that he was being blackballed by the owners, at which point A-Rod said something along the lines of "I've never talked to Jose Canseco."

Earlier this year Canseco came out and said he had something on A-Rod and it would be in his next book. I guess this is it.

ARod is a big name out there, and it will sell some more books.

Maybe NJ would like to give it one last go with the chair and off Canseco.

?

NJ - Jersey
The Chair - Bzzztt
Off - as in shuffle off this mortal coil

I'm more likely to believe now that A-Rod is clean.

I thought that his news was that ARod like to take it in the posterier

The report was just based on a couple of sources, when there were probably many more. There must have been hundreds of other players who used aside from this. It seems like a huge chunk used over a 15 year period or so.

Arod could have used something like amphetamines or something.

Canseco is now going to set out to find the real steroid users, then help OJ find the real killer

Didn't Canseco mention him once beofre? If so, was Canseco ever in a postion to have firsthand knowledge of what A-Rod was and was not doing?

I can almost see Kevin salivating at the thought of this prospect, and not just because he's too old to swallow his own drool.

Canseco's a worthy target of snarkorific barbs and there's some good ones here as usual, but it's kind of silly at this late date to think he doesn't have credibility on steroids.

I'm more likely to believe now that A-Rod is clean.

Why, because he wasn't in this report?

I'm not saying ARod did anything, want that to be clear . . .

But, I agree with was MSI says in #17 . . . just because a player isn't in the report means nothing about whether or not he's clean.

It means he was fortunate that his dealer wasn't caught. Not so much for the guys in New York or the Bay Area . . . I'm seeing Canseco with a whole lot of credibility these days, Caminiti said 50%, Jack Armstrong 30%, etc. . . . anyone who doesn't think this was amazingly widespread is kidding themselves.

But honestly, I don't care. Baseball wasn't testing. There was a culture of, if you aren't doing it, you don't care enough (at least one front office guy basically said that to a reporter, IIRC).

Let's end the witch hunt and move forward already. Test now, get rid of it. But I'm not about to brand all of these guys with a scarlett S.

I can almost see Kevin salivating at the thought of this prospect, and not just because he's too old to swallow his own drool.

No doubt. That might be the unkindest cut of all to the continuing dismal saga emanating out of the Bronx.

Oh please, please, please someone catch the steroid dealer in New England . . . c'mon Boston, your sports teams are dominating, please get law enforcement up to that level.

It's all pure talent, Joe.

When it rains, it pours.

G. Mitchell or J. Canseco? You must pick one or the other though neither of them are to be what they claim.

You walk into the room, with your syringe in your ass...

Ok, I'll say it: I'm almost certain Canseco is right. I have little doubt that A-Rod uses/used steroids, and I'll extend that claim to Pujols as well.

Derek Jeter is going to end up being the primary beneficiary of all this. Unlike these other guys, there's not a whiff of a hint of a scent that he's used. The press is going to canonize him when he's up for Hall induction.

I have little doubt that A-Rod uses/used steroids, and I'll extend that claim to Pujols as well.

Why?

EDIT: For A-Rod moreso than Pujols.

Oh please, please, please someone catch the steroid dealer in New England . . . c'mon Boston, your sports teams are dominating, please get law enforcement up to that level.

Joe: It doesn't really matter. Nobody thinks this is a uniquely NY problem and people understand the connection of the squealer to the people fingered. Boston's list of users would be as long as NY's, as I'm sure Kevin would have to admit. You don't think Varitek, Big Papi, Nomar, Bellhorn, Damon (then), Nixon, et al are as likely to have used as the NY players?

Where did Rodney Harrison get his roids?

Where did Rodney Harrison get his roids?

It was HGH, wasn't it?

I have little doubt that A-Rod uses/used steroids, and I'll extend that claim to Pujols as well.

Why?

Are you kidding? You don't think he's a likely candidate?

Derek Jeter is going to end up being the primary beneficiary of all this. Unlike these other guys, there's not a whiff of a hint of a scent that he's used.

Maybe he just buried the bodies deeper.

Are you kidding? You don't think he's a likely candidate?

I don't think Arod is. He always hit for power, he never had to rehab a serious injury either.

Wouldn't it sort of make sense though for the MLB to protect its own superstars like the NBA refs do with Dwade, Jordan, etc. (that wasn't a charge/travel/...)? The fans already were calling for Bond's head ... but it would have been a bigger blow to see ARod and Pujols on the naughty list.

It would absolutely not surprise me if more than 50% of the league juiced currently or had at some point in their careers.

I just want my ### sport back ... clean it up and get these salaries in check!

Dunno. The Rod seems to perform well regardless of the testing regimen. Maybe he got on the hGH train early, but I don't see a lot of smoke there. And Canseco would have been highly motivated to have named The Rod originally.

Ok, I'll say it: I'm almost certain Canseco is right. I have little doubt that A-Rod uses/used steroids, and I'll extend that claim to Pujols as well.

Seconded.

Are you kidding? You don't think he's a likely candidate?

He hit 36 HR as a 20 year old, and was a plus defender at SS during his time with Texas. If he did start using, it's been since his switch to third, and that change isn't nearly dramatic enough that more weight training isn't a reasonable explanation.

You don't think Varitek, Big Papi, Nomar, Bellhorn, Damon (then), Nixon, et al are as likely to have used as the NY players?


Varitek, Nomar, Damon, and Nixon were on the leaked/phony list, which I'm still not convinced wasn't created from a credible source.

I just want my ### sport back ... clean it up and get these salaries in check!

It's not a sport, it'sa business. This is how we do business in the US.

The Canseco/A-Rod thing just points up the fact that the Mitchell report accuses some people (and I have no problem believing many of the accusations) but exonerates no one. The fact that a player was NOT mentioned in the Mitchell report could mean that he was clean or it could mean that his steroid/HGH supplier hadn't been identified.

If the Mitchell investigation created a disincentive to juice because players were afraid that they'd be caught, at least that's constructive. But it doesn't appear that The List did a good job, if only because it's so obviously short: Mitchell and his people didn't get enough suppliers/trainers/players to cooperate (and I sympathize with the difficulty of getting more cooperation).

I'm all for getting performance-enhancing drugs out of baseball. But I'm not in favor of an open-ended witch hunt; it merely casts suspicion on everyone, and does nothing constructive.

Ok, I'll say it: I'm almost certain Canseco is right. I have little doubt that A-Rod uses/used steroids, and I'll extend that claim to Pujols as well.

Wow. Even I won't go that far. But I don't doubt JC is correct.

I could see A-Rod using them for vanity's sake alone.

Even I won't go that far. But I don't doubt JC is correct.

You won't go that far and yet you agree?

You won't go that far and yet you agree?

Hey, it works for Obama.

I don't think Arod is. He always hit for power,

Or maybe just because you take steroids it doesn't mean it will affect your power.

Not that JC is basing his assumption on anything other than something he just pulled out of his ass.

get these salaries in check!

and get that money back in the pockets of the owners where it belongs

It's never a good idea to write a sequel to a tell-all story.

You won't go that far and yet you agree?

Yeah, you can catch all the #### for a change.

I'm being serious. I'm not saying it's not possible A-Rod took steroids, but I see little in the way of circumstantial evidence for someone to proclaim that they're almost certain he did.

I'm being serious. I'm not saying it's not possible A-Rod took steroids, but I see little in the way of circumstantial evidence for someone to proclaim that they're almost certain he did.

Canseco's allegations aren't circumstantial evidence. He's been pretty credible so far and he's said several times A-Rod's a user.

Canseco's allegations aren't circumstantial evidence. He's been pretty credible so far and he's said several times A-Rod's a user.


They're not evidence at all until they consist of more than the statement that A-Rod is a user.

Also, repeating something doesn't make it truer, whatever presidential candidates may think.

He's been pretty credible so far and he's said several times A-Rod's a user.

I'll agree that he has proven to be right more often then it was previously thought he was. But, the fact that he left A-rod out of his first book and is now throwing A-rod's name around just to promote his upcoming book is suspicious to me. That doesn't strike you as an odd move for an honest man to make?

I meant to say "of even circumstantial evidence." Jose Canseco has said A-Rod took steroids, which has obvious holes in it as demonstrated in number 52, as far as I know that's the only thing that can be used to say A-Rod took steroids. Is that enough to be almost certain he did?

They're not evidence at all until they consist of more than the statement that A-Rod is a user.

Sure they are. More things than the statement will be more evidence.

I'll agree that he has proven to be right more often then it was previously thought he was

Please site examples of things he has been shown to be wrong about? I can't rememeber one actually, in regard to the topic of steroids.

I meant to say "of even circumstantial evidence." Jose Canseco has said A-Rod took steroids, which has obvious holes in it as demonstrated in number 52, as far as I know that's the only thing that can be used to say A-Rod took steroids. Is that enough to be almost certain he did?

I don't see the holes 52 (CP) sees. Jose Canseco, for all his faults, is a very credible source of information about steroids in baseball. He was asked about the Mitchell Report, and he mentioned his shock that A-Rod wasn't in the report.

The "book" argument would be more of a winner with me if it hadn't already been used against him. His first book was spot-on.

Please site examples of things he has been shown to be wrong about? I can't rememeber one actually, in regard to the topic of steroids.

I don't think he's been proven right in every instance though that's why I worded my post the way I did. Please cite all the names he listed, along with the evidence that each one he mentioned was using steroids. Or are we just assuming everyone he named is guilty because he was right about Palmeiro and Tejada and whoever else he was correct about?

Canseco is obviously a genius on the level of serial-writer Charles Dickens. He has about 10 books worth of names in his "Juiced" series. Thus, the exclusion of A-Rod, Ozzie Canseco, et al in the first book. He's building anticipation. The third book will tell us about Big Papi. Who knows what the fourth will bring?!

I don't see the holes 52 (CP) sees. Jose Canseco, for all his faults, is a very credible source of information about steroids in baseball. He was asked about the Mitchell Report, and he mentioned his shock that A-Rod wasn't in the report.

The "book" argument would be more of a winner with me if it hadn't already been used against him. His first book was spot-on.

This doesn't explain why he wouldn't discuss A-Rod in his first book. He never brought A-Rod up until last year when A-Rod was the focus of the baseball world because of the season he was having.

This doesn't explain why he wouldn't discuss A-Rod in his first book. He never brought A-Rod up until last year when A-Rod was the focus of the baseball world because of the season he was having.

So what? He's a credible witness on steroids in baseball. Maybe he learned more about A-Rod in the last year or so.

He's a credible witness on steroids in baseball.

Being a credible witness doesn't mean your statements become automatic gospel. Even more so when you're more interested in selling the book than revealing the truth. Let's see what he has on A-Rod first, then we can judge.

So what? He's a credible witness on steroids in baseball. Maybe he learned more about A-Rod in the last year or so.


That's like saying that someone is a credible witness in the field of murder and taking his word as gospel in all murder cases.

Unfortunately, it's not possible to "prove" Canseco wrong. This is what Nassim Taleb calls the induction fallacy - the idea that no matter how many white swans you see without ever seeing a black one, you can never prove that all swans are white in this way. Similarly, even if A-Rod passes thousands of drug tests, this does not "prove" he has never used or doesn't still use PEDs. Another instance is Ivan Rodriguez - while he was not outed in the Mitchell Report, this doesn't "prove" Canseco was wrong.

I say this not because I think Canseco is a genius or brilliant soothsayer, but rather because I don't think the standard should be "show me when he was wrong." The prudent approach to me would be to analyze his claims on their individual merits. Many of the claims he made in his books are very silly - e.g. Bret Boone saying "Don't tell anybody!" after Canseco questioned him about his physical development.

If Canseco is proven correct about some of the people he claims to have personally witnessed and/or assisted using steroids, that lends credibility to the claim that all of the people he saw/helped use steroids actually did so. However, in my opinion at least, that doesn't lend credibility to the mostly unfounded allegations he makes about other players (and I think A-Rod goes in this category).

Even if we acknowledge that Canseco has "credibility" on the subject of steroids, there's a tangible difference between his telling tales of people he saw use (as he did in his book) and him speculating about someone against whom he has no evidence.

Unless Canseco has witnessed something material, his fingering A-Rod is not evidence of anything.

Even if we acknowledge that Canseco has "credibility" on the subject of steroids, there's a tangible difference between his telling tales of people he saw use (as he did in his book) and him speculating about someone against whom he has no evidence.

Unless Canseco has witnessed something material, his fingering A-Rod is not evidence of anything.

Why are you assuming it's mere speculation? Maybe he does have eyewitness testimony. Or maybe he heard it from a very credible eyewitness.

Why are you assuming it's mere speculation? Maybe he does have eyewitness testimony. Or maybe he heard it from a very credible eyewitness.

If it were something more, I would expect Canseco to say that. The man has no problem seeking attention.

Canseco has witnessed something material, his fingering A-Rod

Not that there's anything wrong with that. If you photoshop a blonde wig on Canseco, he looks a lot like the gal in Toronto.

Best Regards

John

Why are you assuming it's mere speculation? Maybe he does have eyewitness testimony. Or maybe he heard it from a very credible eyewitness.

Or maybe Jose Canseco is merely omniscient. Ever think of that?

Why are you assuming it's mere speculation? Maybe he does have eyewitness testimony. Or maybe he heard it from a very credible eyewitness.

And when he produces that evidence, then I'll weigh his claim more seriously. Until then, I will remain skeptical.

The report was just based on a couple of sources, when there were probably many more. There must have been hundreds of other players who used aside from this.

More like thousands.

Derek Jeter is going to end up being the primary beneficiary of all this. Unlike these other guys, there's not a whiff of a hint of a scent that he's used.

Not yet, anyway.

They're not evidence at all until they consist of more than the statement that A-Rod is a user.

Sure they are. More things than the statement will be more evidence.

No. "A-Rod is a user" is an accusation, not evidence. "I saw A-Rod using," or "A-Rod told me he was using," or "A-Rod has X, Y and Z characteristics of using" or "John told me that Bob said that A-Rod announced he was using" are evidence, of varying degrees of convincingness.


And:

I don't see the holes 52 (CP) sees. Jose Canseco, for all his faults, is a very credible source of information about steroids in baseball.

I don't understand what you mean here. Canseco's "credibility" is only relevant if he's talking about something he knows to be true. You think Canseco has gaydar, except with steroids? Otherwise, he can only know if he actually witnessed something.

It would be extremely odd for him to have left that out of his book if he did.