Like the disgrace that befell Babe Ruth and Yogi Berra

no one has been a more productive run scorer for the past dozen years than Derek Jeter.

Runs scored 1997-2008:
Alex Rodriguez - 1411
Derek Jeter - 1333

Feinsand looks like he ate Babe Ruth and Yogi Berra.

Runs scored 1997-2008:
Alex Rodriguez - 1411
Derek Jeter - 1333

The article addressed that, in its own way:

Since 1996, only one player – Alex Rodriguez – has scored more runs than Jeter. A-Rod has 1,552 runs scored to Jeter’s 1,437, and when you consider that Rodriguez has hit 336 more homers than Jeter in that time – scoring a run on each of those homers, obviously – it makes Jeter’s run total even more impressive.

While having an off-year, Jeter is still 3rd among AL shortstops in OPS. He's a long way from being done, and will almost certainly play beyond his current contract, assuming he is so inclined.

no one has been a more productive run scorer for the past dozen years than Derek Jeter.

The next sentence of the article actually said that Alex Rodriguez is the only guy who has outscored Jeter over that time, and then points out that ARod also has 300 some odd more homers during the same stretch.

I'm a Yankee-hater, and I think Jeter is overrated because he's really not a good defensive shortstop, but he probably is the best table-setter since Henderson and Raines were in their primes.

That's what I get for not RTFA.

he probably is the best table-setter since Henderson and Raines were in their primes.

someone oughta make a list of best OBPs for non-cleanup hitters since 1990. Obviosuly Barry Bonds WOULD have been a better table setter if he batted in the 1 or 2 hole.

he probably is the best table-setter since Henderson and Raines were in their primes.

Ichiro Suzuki? Craig Biggio was pretty good in his day.

Since 1996, only one player – Alex Rodriguez – has scored more runs than Jeter. A-Rod has 1,552 runs scored to Jeter’s 1,437, and when you consider that Rodriguez has hit 336 more homers than Jeter in that time – scoring a run on each of those homers, obviously – it makes Jeter’s run total even more impressive.

And obviously driving yourself in is just plain selfish...

And also, how many fewer runs would Jeter have scored, if ARod hadn't hit all those home runs batting behind him.

Ichiro Suzuki? Craig Biggio was pretty good in his day.

Grady Sizemore.

Yeah - I'd take Biggio atop the lineup before Jeter... it's relatively close, but I think Biggio, not Jeter, was the class of mid/late 90s table-setters.

Feinsand walked in on Jeter and A-Rod in a hotel room and it went a little like this...


Feinsand: "I stay and watch?"

A-Rod: "No!"

Feinsand: "I get involved?"

Jeter: "What?"

Feinsand: "I get involved with Jeter?"

A-Rod: "What do you think?"

Jeter: "Turn around"

While having an off-year, Jeter is still 3rd among AL shortstops in OPS.

That's because AL shortstops suck. There are seven NL shortstops with higher OPS.

This doesn't mean that Jeter isn't still the best bet the Yankees have at SS for the next couple years, but it's a little talking point I've seen batted around that's based on a very selective sample. You wouldn't be citing his AL rank if it weren't for the fact that all the good shortstops are in the NL.

The article addressed that, in its own way:

Since 1996, only one player – Alex Rodriguez – has scored more runs than Jeter. A-Rod has 1,552 runs scored to Jeter’s 1,437, and when you consider that Rodriguez has hit 336 more homers than Jeter in that time – scoring a run on each of those homers, obviously – it makes Jeter’s run total even more impressive.

Since A-Rod has hit an inordinate number of those homers while batting behind Jeter, I'd say that it makes Jeter's run total less impressive.

You wouldn't be citing his AL rank if it weren't for the fact that all the good shortstops are in the NL.

Last I looked, the Yankees were in the American League. Thus, compared to his direct competitors, Jeter is still doing pretty well, which shouldn't be in dispute. The article seems to be mostly knocking down straw men, as few contend Jeter's career is nearly over, although there have always been a few here willing to seize on the flimsiest of evidence to suggest that Jeter is not actually a great player.

We'll never know how Jeter would do if he played in the National League, but he is hitting .366 in interleague play this year.

Last I looked, the Yankees were in the American League New York. Thus, compared to his direct competitors, Jeter is still doing pretty well the worst there is, which shouldn't be in dispute.

Fixed.

Jeter isn't the worst starting shortstop in New York. What about Addison Maruszak, or Reese Havens?

i shouldn't be, but i'm constantly surprised when people can't make the distinction between:

derek jeter will and likely should be a first ballot hof'er and:

-> his defense isn't best in the world
-> he's not a demi-god.

my neighbor has a huge jeter-crush...so when they had the yanks old-timers game, and derek was kissing the (older) wives on the field, i said "since he's had a dropoff year this year, his standards for women have sure dropped, haven't they?"

12: great fg reference.

Ichiro Suzuki? Craig Biggio was pretty good in his day.

I'd call it a wash with Suzuki. Jeter has a slightly higher on base percentage and slightly worse stolen base numbers, but both are really different only by the smallest of margins. Biggio has a significantly worse on-base percentage, but also already played through the down-side of his career. I would say that the numbers, again, don't really give a clear answer. I expect that by the end of Jeter's career, he and Biggio will have extremely similar career offensive numbers.

great fg reference.

There's no such thing.

Biggio has a significantly worse on-base percentage, but also already played through the down-side of his career.

He also spent the first half of his career in one of the all time great pitchers parks - he got squeezed on the front half of his career by his home field and on the back by his decline, neither of which Jeter has had to deal with.

Ichiro Suzuki? Craig Biggio was pretty good in his day.

Kenny Lofton wasn't bad either.

Feinsand: "I get involved with Jeter?"

A-Rod: "What do you think?"

Jeter: "Turn around"

A-Rod: *Fist Pump*

He also spent the first half of his career in one of the all time great pitchers parks - he got squeezed on the front half of his career by his home field and on the back by his decline, neither of which Jeter has had to deal with.

Yeah, but Yankee Stadium isn't exactly a hitter's paradise, and the Astrodome was more of a pitchers park in terms of home runs than anything else. It suppressed batting average a bit more than Yankee Stadium does, but only a small bit. I did a quick, not completely correct check, and I think Biggio through age 34 was probably about 5 points in OBP behind Jeter. They have essentially the same numbers of seasons above .400 or .390 or .380 or .370 in OBP. They both stay in the lineup well. Biggio had a few better seasons stealing bases, but also put up a 15 for 32 in 1993. Offensively, they are quite similar players. Biggio's Jeter's #10 comp through age 33 on baseball-reference. I think you'd need to do a really careful study to conclude who's better.

On the other hand, there's perhaps one more name to add to the discussion: Kenny Lofton. Clearly the best base-stealer of the bunch, and he actually also had more seasons above .400 in OBP than Jeter or Biggio. Not as good an overall player because he had no power, but a truly underrated player.

"And also, how many fewer runs would Jeter have scored, if ARod hadn't hit all those home runs batting behind him."

Hmm. Can't say for sure. But I do know he was always among the tops in runs scored for about 7 years when there was no one on the team who could hit more than 30 home runs a year.


"Yeah - I'd take Biggio atop the lineup before Jeter... it's relatively close, but I think Biggio, not Jeter, was the class of mid/late 90s table-setters."

Close, but I'll take Jeter. Better on base, slugging percentage, and he will likely end up with more hits, RBIs and runs scored. Home runs should be close. He will also trump Biggio in career batting average by a healthy margin.

"Yeah - I'd take Biggio atop the lineup before Jeter... it's relatively close, but I think Biggio, not Jeter, was the class of mid/late 90s table-setters."

If it's close, the edge should go to Jeter since he compiled his stats in the better league.

Hmm. Can't say for sure. But I do know he was always among the tops in runs scored for about 7 years when there was no one on the team who could hit more than 30 home runs a year.

Well, the 1998 Yankees, for example, had no one who hit 30 homers, but they had 8 guys who hit at least 17. The 1999 Yankees had no one over 30 homers, but 7 guys over 17 homers. The 1996 Yankees really were short on power. Jeter is the reason people thought Tino Martinez was a really good player, instead of an average one, in the same way that Henderson was the reason people thought Mattingly was an all-time great, instead of just a very good player.

If it's close, the edge should go to Jeter since he compiled his stats in the better league.

The NL has been weak for three years or so, it was not a weaker league when Biggio was compiling his HOF numbers nor when Jeter was compiling most of his.

The NL has been weak for three years or so, it was not a weaker league when Biggio was compiling his HOF numbers nor when Jeter was compiling most of his.

Isn't it more than 3 years? Hasn't the AL had the edge in interleague play since it started? And the All-Star game since it counted?

The NL had the historic edge in interleague play (cumulative) until 2006. The NL won interleague play in 1997, 1999, and 2003. It was basically a tie in 1998, 2002, and 2004. The AL won in 2000, 2001, 2005, 2006, 2007, and 2008.Source

One more reason to think the impetus for the AL becoming overall more competitive was the change in Red Sox ownership.

On the other hand, there's perhaps one more name to add to the discussion: Kenny Lofton. Clearly the best base-stealer of the bunch, and he actually also had more seasons above .400 in OBP than Jeter or Biggio. Not as good an overall player because he had no power, but a truly underrated player.

Juts around 1993/94 people began speaking of Lofton as a major star, and then...
nothing, it;'s like people forgot he even existed, even as he played year after year.

If he could have replicated 1994 2 or 3 more times he'd... almost be Tim Raines.

Lofton/Butler/Griffey Sr/Damon all close, I'd put them
Griffey Sr (wanna talk about an underrated player- 8000 PAs at an 118 OPS+)
Butler
Lofton
Damon...

The ONLY thing Lou Brock has on these guys is a PT advantage (OK Brock was a little better with the bat than Damon, but Damon, noodle arm and all was quite a bit better with thw glove)

Biggio: 7.34 GIDP/600 PAs

Jeter: 13.07 GIDP/600 PAs

As Jeter ages, this difference is likely to grow.

Biggio: 7.34 GIDP/600 PAs

Jeter: 13.07 GIDP/600 PAs

As Jeter ages, this difference is likely to grow.

Biggio batted leadoff, behind the bottom of the Astros lineup for most of his career, while Jeter has batted second, behind the Yankee leadoff hitter for most of his career. I would imagine Jeter had many more opportunities to ground into double plays.

I've always been skeptical of the whole "Biggio never grounds into DPs" thing. It's the kind of thing I'd expect from a fast, good hitter who bats leadoff in the NL. I mean, how many times is he coming to bat with a guy on first and nowhere else? Basically whenever the pitcher reaches or messed up a sac bunt, because any runner on first is likely being bunted over by the pitcher in the nine-hole.

Biggio batted leadoff, behind the bottom of the Astros lineup for most of his career, while Jeter has batted second, behind the Yankee leadoff hitter for most of his career. I would imagine Jeter had many more opportunities to ground into double plays.

FWIW Jeter has batted with a man on 1st in 28.3% of his PAs
Biggio has batted with a man on first in 23.1 % of his PAs (I don't have breakdowns by out)

So 5.3% of the men on first when Biggio has batted have been erased in DPs, 7.7% of the men on first when Jeter has batted have been erased in DPs.

By way of comparison, Jim Rice batted with a man on first in 28.9% of his PAs, and that man was erased in a DP 12% of the time.

Jason Giambi has batted with a man on first in 29% of his PAs, and taht man has been erased in a DP just 6.2% of the time.

lastly, Rob Deer batted with a man on first in 28.8% of his PAs, and that man was erased in a DP just... 2.9% of the time.

lastly, Rob Deer batted with a man on first in 28.8% of his PAs, and that man was erased in a DP just... 2.9% of the time.

Sure. If you almost never hit a ground ball, and you have decent speed, you probably won't hit into too many double plays.