Dick Young was a moralizing hypocrite, sort of like a sports version of Bill O'Reilly.

This is only marginally on-point here, but my fiancee and I were watching one of those home improvement shows yesterday, and the husband and wife remodelers got into an argument over a little detail. Then he turned around and addressed the camera (with her still in the room): "I just hope that in the future I can explain my logic better so that she can understand me next time."

No, not "I was wrong" or "We disagree", but "If you were just a bit smarter, my wonderfulness would make more sense to you."

I mean, they edit shows like that to make people look as bad as possible, so I always try to cut them some slack for saying dumb stuff, but that one made me sit up and take notice. I am not that certain about anything, and I respect my fiancee's opinions enough not to say that sort of thing, particularly on TV, and particularly not with her sitting next to me.

"….Nolan Ryan is getting more now than Seaver," wrote Young, "and that galls Tom because Nancy Seaver and Ruth Ryan are very friendly and Tom Seaver long has treated Nolan Ryan like a little brother."

Times have changed a little. Print something like that nowadays and a player would scarcely notice.

"I just hope that in the future I can explain my logic better so that she can understand me next time."

No, not "I was wrong" or "We disagree", but "If you were just a bit smarter, my wonderfulness would make more sense to you."

I think you may have misinterpreted what was said.

Haven't you ever had a conversation/argument when its clear that the person who disagrees with you really doesn't disagree? They disagree with what they think your argument is, because maybe you were not as articulate as you wanted to be and they, like most people, picked up on what you actually said and not what you meant to say.

or maybe you are right and he was saying that she doesn't understand me because she's stupid

Haven't you ever had a conversation/argument when its clear that the person who disagrees with you really doesn't disagree? They disagree with what they think your argument is, because maybe you were not as articulate as you wanted to be and they, like most people, picked up on what you actually said and not what you meant to say.

Oh, no. I have, and I would think that way if it happened to me. My biggest beef was with saying it publicly, made worse by the fact that she was sitting next to him. If you're knee-deep in a project and need someone's help to finish, continuing to argue about who's right and who's wrong is going to engender bad feelings and few positives.

In any argument with your spouse, you should use the words "You're right" as often as possible. It seems this guy missed the opportunity by telling her that she was wrong about what they were arguing about, instead of agreeing and then trying to steer the conversation to the point he was trying to make.

Haven't you ever had a conversation/argument when its clear that the person who disagrees with you really doesn't disagree? They disagree with what they think your argument is, because maybe you were not as articulate as you wanted to be and they, like most people, picked up on what you actually said and not what you meant to say.

I have that with my father all of the time. :-)

BTW, I remember the day Tom Terrific left the Mets as if it were yesterday. What a terrible trade emotionally, though you can make the case that the Mets actually got at least equal value for him (Zachary was actually better than my mind remembers him to be).

Though Kingman doesn't loom as large as he did to my almost 12-year old eyes, losing him to get Bobby V. and Paul Siebert was the real stinker of a trade.

“That Dick Young column was the straw that broke the back,” Seaver said from his vineyard home in Calistoga, Calif., the other day,

You know, sometimes you just can't help but think silly thoughts about how the whole world is set up to produce little coincidences (or are they???) involving your life. I just got back from a vacation, part of which I spent in Northern California. During the trip, I spent a day late last week at a spa in Calistoga, where Tom Seaver lives. And now this article appears. It's all about me, people. All.

The quote Madden includes about Nolan Ryan doesn't entirely capture my recollection of what the Young column conveyed, although maybe that was the entirety of what he actually wrote. I thought Young also went further and actually said explicitly that Seaver wanted to be traded because Nancy Seaver was jealous of Ryan's contract. But even if not, Young was such a complete tool; the simple fact of the matter was that Seaver was 100% right: Grant was unwilling to adapt to the new environment and did nothing to try to keep the Mets competitive, and darkness descended on the franchise. Why in the world shouldn't he, as the leader of the team, complain about that, loud and long? And Young was management's mouthpiece, which is an utterly shameful thing for a columnist to be.

As bad as the Kazmir trade was, nothing in being a baseball fan will ever match how awful June 15, 1997 was for me.

I actually bought Young's rhetoric about Seaver back then, even though I still didn't want Tom to leave. I was just a kid back then, so what did I know about baseball economics?

It wasn't really into Bill James that I became much more sympathetic to the players.

gets off the lawn before they start yelling

As bad as the Kazmir trade was, nothing in being a baseball fan will ever match how awful June 15, 1997 was for me.

Sam, you still can't get over Bobby Jones losing to the BoSox 10-1, huh? ;-)

What color was the Bobby Jones?

Every column that weasel bastard wrote in those days was anti-player, especially Seaver. With Tom being my favorite player, hating Young, and favoring the players and Marvin Miller became second nature, finishing the radicalizing Ball Four had started. "Don" Grant was, to Dick, a friend to fans anywhere with this cheap ways. The fact that Shea Stadium was soon becoming a ghost town seemed to elude them.

And the Pat Zachry - ballpeen hammer story is a classic.

What color was the Bobby Jones?

This was the Caucasian version, Erik.

As bad as the Kazmir trade was, nothing in being a baseball fan will ever match how awful June 15, 1997 was for me.


Sam, you still can't get over Bobby Jones losing to the BoSox 10-1, huh? ;-)

You know what they say. The first thing to go as you age is the typing skills . . . .

I did NOT buy Young's rhetoric about Seaver, but I do remember thinking that even if Seaver personally was greedy and only cared about his contract, the fact was that the team wasn't competing for free agents and was living in the past and -- worst of all -- the Yankees were obviously not playing by the same stupid rules. The Mets were going to be bad because they weren't going to play to win, and even if Seaver had selfish reasons to be calling them on that, he was obviously right.

just heard jody mac on radio - he said the article was pretty spot on, except the part about his father not liking torre; he always liked (and still likes) torre, just didn't think he was ready to manage.

just heard jody mac on radio

So the ratings are wrong...he does have a listener!...:)

I did NOT buy Young's rhetoric about Seaver, but I do remember thinking that even if Seaver personally was greedy and only cared about his contract, the fact was that the team wasn't competing for free agents and was living in the past and -- worst of all -- the Yankees were obviously not playing by the same stupid rules. The Mets were going to be bad because they weren't going to play to win, and even if Seaver had selfish reasons to be calling them on that, he was obviously right.

I was also cognizant even then that the Yankees had the better game plan, while the Mets' game plan left something to be desired (understatement of the year, don't you think? :-)

While I have some fond memories of 1977-83, that was a tough time to be a Met fan.

just heard jody mac on radio

My uncle was a friend of Joe McDonald's brother. By the time I knew of this and actually met him, Joe wasn't working with the Mets anymore. Bummer. I probably could have picked up a ticket or two. :-(

Young and Seaver's trade more or less drove me away from serious baseball fandom for many years. I watched baseball for the next few years, but my rooting interest was vastly diminished, and then in high school I paid little attention. I will always hate Young and M. Donald Grant for what they did to my childhood. I'll admit that Young had his good points, though most came earlier in his career. (curiously, around that time, Young was on the right side of an issue - letting women reporters in the clubhouse - while Red Smith, who was usually on the sensible side of things, was against granting them access) Grant, on the other hand, was a totally despicable human being.

Madden's account, by the way, is right on. Seaver was willing to put up with anything Young said about him, but when Young printed something about Seaver's wife, that was indeed the last straw. I have no idea if there was any truth to what Young wrote - I'm skeptical, but I can't be sure, but even if it was true, it was totally inappropriate to print.

Madden in general, is a good and intelligent baseball reporter. He knows quite a lot about baseball history, though not quite as much as he thinks he does. Madden's personality, on the other hand, leaves a lot to be desired.

I remember reading about a fan being expelled from Shea Stadium for showing a banner that said "Welcome to Grant's Tomb."

That wasn't A fan, that was Karl "Sign Man" Ehrhardt, the guy you see with the very neat and tidy block-letter signs in all those 1969 montages.

Except that, according to the N.Y. Times, his "Grant's Tomb" sign showed up in 1965, and Ehrhardt kept up his act until 1981. Another website claims the sign was "torn down" by a Met employee named Mat Burns, and Ehrhardt came back with a sign reading "WE SCRIBBLE WHILE MAT BURNS." Which would be cute, except that Ehrhardt always held up his signs over his head and I don't know how you "tear down" a sign from someone's hands.

Ehrhardt was great. He should be remembered in baseball history the same way Hilda Chester and her cowbell are for the Bums and the Royal Rooters are for the BoSox.