Do you think Joe Girardi's already agreed in principle to his contract with the Yankees, or are they going to actually wait until Torre officially resigns?

In one-plus frames he allowed four runs and five hits and left a bases-loaded, no-out jam for Mike Mussina.

He didn't allow 4 runs and leave the bases loaded as the article implies. He left the bases loaded, two of the runners eventually scored and were charged to Wang, giving him 4 ER total. This stuff is written all the time in order to make someone look worse than they were and it's just wrong.

Reposted from last nights Indians thread.

I want to say, the season was not a disaster for the Yankees. It is very easy to take the playoffs for granted, but I do not. This team still accomplished good things, and all was not lost. I am also very excited for the future, as long as they hang onto ARod.

If Torre is in fact done, I tip my cap to him. I will look back fondly on the Joe Torre era. It carried me from my senior year of high school, all the way through my 30th birthday. In that time there have been miraculous victories and crushing defeats. But it was great. Sure, they probably could have won another title or two, but they didn't, and that is OK. It is hard to win a World Series, and they won 4.

Good luck Joe Torre, and thank you.

I know this is the cleveland celebration thread, and there will be plenty of Yankee funeral threads to write this, but I think I am going to be taking a vacation for a little bit.

I want to say, the season was not a disaster for the Yankees. It is very easy to take the playoffs for granted, but I do not. This team still accomplished good things, and all was not lost. I am also very excited for the future, as long as they hang onto ARod.

If Torre is in fact done, I tip my cap to him. I will look back fondly on the Joe Torre era. It carried me from my senior year of high school, all the way through my 30th birthday. In that time there have been miraculous victories and crushing defeats. But it was great. Sure, they probably could have won another title or two, but they didn't, and that is OK. It is hard to win a World Series, and they won 4.

Good luck Joe Torre, and thank you.

Do you think Joe Girardi's already agreed in principle to his contract with the Yankees, or are they going to actually wait until Torre officially resigns?

They'll have to go through the motions of interviewing a minority candidate (like Al Leiter) first.

I am going to miss Torre. I hope he manages again. I would hate to see him get sucked in to the ESPN booth, which is what I am afraid is going to happen. I always thought he could follow Selig as commish, but I doubt that would ever happen.

I do think Girardi is the wrong man for the job and if they hire him I think it will be just comical watching the media shred him.

You guys in the Girardi camp. What makes you think the he can motivate the Yank's?
They may buy into what he is preaching for a little while, i just can't see it as a long term answer.

Please hire Larry Bowa. Please hire Larry Bowa...

the Daily News ran some headline about "La Russa Lurking", but I'm assuming they just made that up.

Larry Bowa as manager of the Yankees... I mean, the headlines would just write themselves. Autobots could be hired to be columnists for the major papers. Fans' heads would explode on a weekly basis. It would be the second coming of the Bronx Zoo!

You guys in the Girardi camp. What makes you think the he can motivate the Yank's?

well, the same reason his name popped up when the Cubs position was open this offseason and again when the Orioles position was open after Perlozzo was fired. He's a smart, well-respected guy who had some success managing a young team. There are plenty of question marks with him, to be sure, but none of the other options seem any more likely to succeed

In all seriousness, if Torre is gone, I think they go with Mattingly. I obviously know nothing about the Yankees thinking, but I have a hunch.

Jim Tracy's available.

Third time's the charm, after all.

Do you think Joe Girardi's already agreed in principle to his contract with the Yankees, or are they going to actually wait until Torre officially resigns?

The same Joe Girardi who ruined the arm of every young pitcher in the Marlins organization?

One assumes that Cashman will maintain strict control over the health and usage of his pitching prospects, but Girardi's history does make him an odd choice.

As one whose favorite team is whoever is playing against the Yankees today, I'm really looking forward to the Joe Girardi era. I'm already anticipating the Post running stories in mid-June about whispers that Girardi and Jeter are clashing and there are divisions in the clubhouse, etc. etc. He's totally the wrong man for this job.

"They'll have to go through the motions of interviewing a minority candidate (like Al Leiter) first."

Self-serving ######## aren't a minority. Unfortunately.

"Jim Tracy's available."

Tracy's incoherence vs. the NY press corps is a matchup I'd pay to see.

I think LaRussa for a 2-year-deal with Mattingly promised the job after is not implausible, and may be more likely than the other two primary options (Girardi, who has some opponents in the front office, or Mattingly, whom they worry is too much like Torre in style to replace him right now.) I wouldn't be shocked at all to see TLR in New York next year.

The same Joe Girardi who ruined the arm of every young pitcher in the Marlins organization?

go look at what actually happened there. pap smear points are a good reference.

The same Joe Girardi who ruined the arm of every young pitcher in the Marlins organization?

What qualifies as ruining young arms these days? Rookies had what - 95 starts there last year? Not a single start over 120 pitches, maybe 1 over 115, about a dozen over 110. The horror. The horror . . . . Yea, they're doing worse, but unless you want to advocate pitchers under the age of 25 never throwing over 80 pitches I'm not sure how he's your culprit.

Also, I wouldn't be too quick to bury any of those guys. Young pitchers - even those who survive - have rough spots. Look what happened to Don SUtton in his second full year. Very nice rookie season, then a replacement level pitcher in his sophomore season. Gaylord Perry had the exact same thing happen after his first full year as a starter. And Jim Kaat. Greg Maddux won 15 at the all star break in his 1988 coming out season. He had 3 in the second half. Two years later he went 13 straight starts without a win.

He's a smart, well-respected guy who had some success managing a young team.

"Smart" is probably the last word I would use to describe Girardi. As a Sox fan I'd love to see him hired.

"Smart" is probably the last word I would use to describe Girardi

what are you basing that on?

I would not want to be the guy to replace Torre next year. Whoever it is better hope Cashman can bring back the studs who are eligible to leave. And whoever it is had better win a postseason series or three.

What qualifies as ruining young arms these days? Rookies had what - 95 starts there last year? Not a single start over 120 pitches, maybe 1 over 115, about a dozen over 110. The horror. The horror . . . . Yea, they're doing worse, but unless you want to advocate pitchers under the age of 25 never throwing over 80 pitches I'm not sure how he's your culprit.

I didn't mention pitch counts. I have no idea what the cause was. But these are the IP leaders for Marlins in 2006, and their numbers in '06 and '07. (I dropped Scuffy Moeller, no one cares about him.)

(IP/ERA+)
Willis: 223/112, 205/82
Olsen: 180/107, 177/73
Johnson: 157/139, 16/57
Nolasco: 140/89, 21/78
Sanchez: 114/152, 30/89

That's three pitchers with significant injuries, two pitchers doing much worse. Now, one could attribute part of the drop-off by Willis and Olsen to the loss of Girardi - maybe he made them pitch better. But three injured pitchers out of five is a terrible record, and the possibility that Willis or Olsen is pitching through yet another injury has to be considered.

If I wanted to play who's less doctrinaire saber, I could suggest that you're the one pointing to luck as the explanation for these injuries, while I'm asking how we can search out the cause.

Certainly, it could be the vicissitudes of shoulder integrity, or it could be the minor league system of the Marlins, or it could be the training staff, or the pitching coach. It could be some of those things in combination with Girardi.

My take is that pitchers are more likely to get injured when they pitch tired. Pitch counts are a pretty bad estimator of that risk. Somewhere in the Marlins organization (for which Girardi had significant responsibility) people decided to send out young pitchers in situations when they were at greater risk of injury. (Maybe this didn't happen, maybe they did the best they could... but I doubt it.)

If I were looking to hire a manager, and I had a whole bunch of impressive young pitchers, I would not hire someone whose managerial record consisted of the 2006 Marlins and nothing else, unless I had some very strong evidence that Girardi was not to blame, or could be strictly controlled so it didn't happen again.

Joe just needs an ex-manager as a coach, somebody who'll tell him when to change pitchers and have an influence on lineup construction....in this series, Hughes could've thrown fewer pitches game 1, which would have let him go longer and given Joba more rest in the win, but--when your ace gets just SPANKED twice in a five game set, further analysis is kinda beside the point....

Considering the expectations associated with the Yankee job, the nature of the press, the Torre legacy hanging over a successor's head, a bevy of veterans likely beholden to Joe and a fan base that will have about 3 minutes of patience before announcing their displeasure I wonder how many folks will be looking to interview?

Even if someone succeeds that glow lasts, what, an hour before everyone starts talking about next year?

Cripes, Mattingly might get the job by default. Who needs this type of aggravation?

One thing I don't think Torre gets enough credit for is working young players into the lineup. Being a rookie on the New York Yankees has to come with incredible pressure, yet look how many of those guys have turned into stars under Torre: Wang, Cano, Joba, Soriano, Posada. Melky and Hughes look like they're on their way. You can say these guys had the talent to be stars all along, but it's not automatic that talent turns into a quality major league player: ask Corey Patterson or Bill Pulsipher.

If I were the Yankees, I would take my time and identify the person I wanted to manage the Yanks for the next ten years. Then I'd work out some kind of peaceful regime change between that person and Torre. I would not fire Torre until I had his replacement in hand, with at least a handshake agreement.

Torre can't possibly last more than another year or two at the helm anyway, so I think if you had a manager-in-waiting, he'd be willing to wait until Torre vacates the position.

One thing I don't think Torre gets enough credit for is working young players into the lineup. Being a rookie on the New York Yankees has to come with incredible pressure, yet look how many of those guys have turned into stars under Torre: Wang, Cano, Joba, Soriano, Posada. Melky and Hughes look like they're on their way. You can say these guys had the talent to be stars all along, but it's not automatic that talent turns into a quality major league player: ask Corey Patterson or Bill Pulsipher.

If I were the Yankees, I would take my time and identify the person I wanted to manage the Yanks for the next ten years. Then I'd work out some kind of peaceful regime change between that person and Torre. I would not fire Torre until I had his replacement in hand, with at least a handshake agreement.

Torre can't possibly last more than another year or two at the helm anyway, so I think if you had a manager-in-waiting, he'd be willing to wait until Torre vacates the position.

Words of much wisdom, Boots.

I wonder how many folks will be looking to interview?

No offense, HW, but I think the answer is "almost everybody." In college sports, guys leave good or great jobs to coach at the "legend" schools: Bill Self, Nick Saban, Charlie Weis. Part of that is money, but part of it isn't. The Yankee job is like that.

No offense, HW, but I think the answer is "almost everybody." In college sports, guys leave good or great jobs to coach at the "legend" schools: Bill Self, Nick Saban, Charlie Weis. Part of that is money, but part of it isn't. The Yankee job is like that.

Les Miles next?

robin:

I wonder. Because those colleges with legendary programs aren't the New York Yankees. Maybe Notre Dame. And look how they have churned through guys of late. And coaches have even turned them down for some of the reasons I listed above.

The Yankees will likely want someone with a pedigree. And if you have such a pedigree you will have appeal to other organizations when those opportunities arise. So do you take the job where your chances of success as gauged by the organization are slim or wait until one of the other umpteen jobs opens up? As the always do.

I think finding a suitable replacement may be tougher than Cashman or whomever thinks it will be......

I would not want to be the guy to replace Torre next year. Whoever it is better hope Cashman can bring back the studs who are eligible to leave. And whoever it is had better win a postseason series or three

I agree with your first sentence, but what makes you think Cashman will be back.

Wasn't he on the "big hook" over the summer as well?

Let the bastards fall!

My take is that pitchers are more likely to get injured when they pitch tired. Pitch counts are a pretty bad estimator of that risk.

Yeah, well, I defy you to find a successful MLB pitcher who can't handle the workloads those guys were given under Girardi. He's actually pitched them less or as little as many manager in baseball would have by those situation. If these guys are all so tired at 70 pitches that they're going to be injured by #105, then they ain't going to make it anyway.

Pitch counts a bad estaimtor of injury risk - yeah, I believe that but you're missing the flipside. A starting pitcher who breaks down because he's asked to throw 110 pitches 3-4 times a year just ain't going to make it regardless. If that's all it takes for a guy to get tired, then it ain't hte manager's fault he gets injured.

Number of starts by Marlins rookie in 2006: 94
Number of times they recorded more than 24 outs: 1 (a no-hitter)
Number of times they recorded exactly 24 outs: 4
Number of times they recorded exactly 23 outs: 2
Number of times they recorded exactly 22 outs: 4
Number of times they recorded exactly 21 outs: 24
Number of times they recorded exactly 20 outs: 5
Number of times they recorded exactly 19 outs: 3
Number of times they recorded exactly 18 outs: 20
Number of times they recorded under 18 outs: 31

Any pitcher whose arm gets stressed out by that workload has no business playing MLB in the first place. They were almost three times as likely to get pulled before the sixth inning ended as go beyond the seventh. In over half their starts they went 6 or fewer innings.

Pitch counts a bad way to gauge stress on the arm? OK, but what the hell good is a starting pitcher whose arm can't make it 6 innings without ruining his arm? Should Girardi have pulled all his starters after 4 innings last year? At some point you actually hvae to try to win games'n'stuff.

Saying Girardi's to blame for their problems this year is the lazy way out. Saying a pitcher's arm was shredded becasue of how he was used assumes that injuries would never happen if pitchers would used properly. That ain't the way that it works.

Boots: I disagree. I think Joe has not been good with rookies overall, and I think the ones that have emerged have essentially been forced upon him by necessity or higher management. Further, being a rookie in NY is actually not very pressure-filled. Yankee fans are extremely patient and forgiving with young players, and certainly seem so now more than ever. Yankee fans are very hard on players who come with expectations. They are expected to perform, or get killed. I think the integration of youth/new players has been one of Joe's weaknesses.

No offense, HW, but I think the answer is "almost everybody." In college sports, guys leave good or great jobs to coach at the "legend" schools: Bill Self, Nick Saban, Charlie Weis. Part of that is money, but part of it isn't. The Yankee job is like that.

You don't see that in professional sports though. No matter how good the job opening is, you aren't going to see pro coaches move from one team to another without being forced out the door. The only exception may be where one team offers the coach GM powers or something like that, and I don't see many managers wanting any part of that responsibility.

I think Joe has not been good with rookies overall, and I think the ones that have emerged have essentially been forced upon him by necessity or higher management.

No matter whose idea it was to put these guys in the lineup, they have undeniably thrived there a lot more than they've flopped. I think that's to Torre's credit.

Serious question:

Have any prospects underachieved under Torre with the Yanks?

I'm not saying it hasn't happened, but I don't follow the Yanks too closely and have heard of the successes, and am wondering if there is a dark side to it.

Have any prospects underachieved under Torre with the Yanks?

Well, let's recall we're not talking about a team with a lot of prospects to begin with. But during his time there, many pitchers have washed out, many pitchers were given few chances to succeed and went elsewhere (Jake Westbrook is an example). In addition, he had guys like Juan Rivera and Marcus Thames who hardly played and went on to help their teams to the WS. I'm sure NJAS.... can think of more. I just wouldn't count the tutelage of young players as Joe's strength.

Have any prospects underachieved under Torre with the Yanks?

hmmm ... well, the only prospects who flopped that I can think of washed out even before they made it to the majors like Drew Henson. Maybe I'm just blanking, but I can't think of any who flopped in the majors. Not that many were even given a chance before 2005.

You don't see that in professional sports though. No matter how good the job opening is, you aren't going to see pro coaches move from one team to another without being forced out the door. The only exception may be where one team offers the coach GM powers or something like that, and I don't see many managers wanting any part of that responsibility.

It's rare, but it's happened. Lou to Tampa is the only recent baseball example I can think of, but Herm Edwards, Gruden, Belichick and Parcells were cases in the NFL. There may have been discord with the FOs in some of those cases (though hard to see with Belichick), but they were essentially lateral moves.

how about Larry Brown going to the Knicks?

If the best examples are Jake Westbrook and Juan Rivera, that's a pretty impressive point in Torre's favor. He's had Soriano, Cano, Posada, Cabrera, Nick Johnson, Wang, Lilly, and now Hughes and Joba. Plus he made Riviera a reliever.

Player development doesn't end when guys make it to the majors, that's when the most important step is taken. Guys who do that under Torre with the Yanks have a rather tremendous record, one I doubt few managers this side of Joe Girardi can match.

It's rare, but it's happened. Lou to Tampa is the only recent baseball example I can think of, but Herm Edwards, Gruden, Belichick and Parcells were cases in the NFL. There may have been discord with the FOs in some of those cases (though hard to see with Belichick), but they were essentially lateral moves.

Good list; as you say most of those had problems with their own front office. Their new jobs were hardly a step up in the prestige meter. Maybe it's the nature of the game, but there aren't enough managers out there good enough for the Yankees to lure them away. A figurehead like Mattingly would do just as well, provided he had a strong bench coach to help with the pitching staff. Hell, give Bowa or Pena the job and let them deal with the media; it would keep the attention/pressure off the rest of the team.

Chris:

Ned Yost's single biggest asset is his ability to have guys translate minor league to major league success.

His record in this area is very impressive. Even more so if Weeks' last two months is real improvement.

Beats Giardi I believe.

The Yankees should hire Willie Randolph away from the Mets. He got David Wright up to his full potential. Saw John Maine, Aaron Heilman, and Jose Reyes turn into good major league players. And he's definitely not afraid to use his entire bullpen.

Agree strongly w/JC in #32 - Torre has to be dragged kicking and screaming to play a kid. Heck Jeter only got the job in 1996 because Fernandez got hurt. How long did Posada caddy for Girardi after he was clearly ready? Cano wasn't brought up until Womack proved he was a complete disaster.

Once they are in there, they have done well, sure . . . but Torre doesn't go to the kids until there are no other options.

"Plus he made Riviera a reliever."

No, he didn't. Gooden was signed for 1996 and there was no room in the rotation for him. He did well and relief, and stuck there. Torre didn't 'make' a reliever out of him.

Chris:

Ned Yost's single biggest asset is his ability to have guys translate minor league to major league success.

His record in this area is very impressive. Even more so if Weeks' last two months is real improvement.

Beats Giardi I believe.

Anyone else's computer just lock up?

Thames, Rivera, Westbook, Lilly are actually very good examples of Torre's not giving chances to guys that could play.

Of course the guys that are stars tend to stay and do well. But all of those guys mentioned could have helped the club significantly.

Several pitchers have come in and bombed too, while pitching well before and after - guys like Javy Vazquez and a slew of relievers.

I'm not blaming Torre for it all, but he certainly doesn't get any extra credit there either, IMO.

guys like Juan Rivera who hardly played

########. Rivera was the regular RF for parts of two seasons, only losing his job when he would get hurt.

I posted a list in some thread a couple months ago of all the young players who Torre had given an opportunity to play regularly. It wasn't short. People keep saying he hates young players though.

Westbrook never pitched for the Yankees. OK, he pitched like 6 IP, but he was essentially a minor league prospect who was traded away. Torre never had the opportunity to give him or not give him a chance. He was not knocking on the door of our rotation.

There are a few guys who had a chance and who did not blossom under Torre. Ed Yarnall, Randy Choate, Eandy Keisler. None ever did anything anywhere else, so maybe they just sucked.

Amen, Joe D. It's really stretching things to give Torre credit for all these young guys prospering despite his reluctance to use them. And credit for keeping the good ones doesn't go to Torre, but to Cashman, or Michael, or someone else.

The Yankees should hire Willie Randolph away from the Mets.

Works for me! Can we start the bandwagon on this one?

Managerial experience (Mattingly lacks)? Check.

No history of shredding young arms (Girardi allegedly did this)? Check.

Yankee bona fides? Check -- bonus points for having rings from two separate eras.

Cashman, call Omar -- right now. Let's get this done!

Bunyon:

I may be a cantankerous lout. But I'm not a STUPID cantankerous lout. Yost has to be given credit for just about every prospect in the last few years who earned a look in the Show becoming a legit major leaguer.

It's the only reason he still has a job. If he had started to agitate for 32 year old has beens THEN Melvin would have shown him the door.

The single biggest prerequisite for being the Brewer manager is playing "the kids". It's "The Plan".

Melvin is all about process.

Just joshing, Harvey.

hmmm ... well, the only prospects who flopped that I can think of washed out even before they made it to the majors like Drew Henson. Maybe I'm just blanking, but I can't think of any who flopped in the majors. Not that many were even given a chance before 2005.

Ricky Ledee leapt to my mind, I'm surprised he hasn't been mentioned. That guy was supposed to be a star. There hasn't really been anyone else like that with the Yanks.

Brandon Claussen is another guy who was not given a chance. He had good stats with Norwich at 22, then good stats with Columbus at 23, then good stats with Columbus at 24. Then he was given one start with the Yankees, returned to Columbus and one month later traded for a couple months of Aaron "World Series Hero Bret" Boone.

Not that he's an ace or anything, but he hasn't been a total washout like Ed Yarnall or Randy Keisler.