It sure seemed to work in 2006.

I don't remember any tough love applied to Jose Reyes in 2006. Maybe I'm forgetting, but I don't recall any in-game benchings, any stern remarks to the press about handshakes or home run celebrations, or anything like that at all.

Man, if only Al Sharpton would say something about L-Mills, we could pump this thread up to 1000....

And where was the tough love for Guillermo Mota?

I've heard Randolph on many interviews, and while I can't quote directly from them, I get the gist that he sees baseball more as what Sam is arguing. That is, I think Willie genuinely believes that young players need to learn the game, to play the right way, to dig deep, to learn the little things, etc.

That doesn't mean that Willie won't give youngsters a chance, just that he's inherently biased against them. And when someone like Milledge comes along who doesn't fit the mold of the classic Randolph worldview, I think that tensions inevitably emerge. Again, I will never forgive Willie if he decided that it would be better to get rid of Milledge rather than adapt with him.

Love you too, Heals. Even though your comparison of Lastings Milledge to Jay Payton had been thoroughly debunked within two posts, and yet you still haven't acknowledged the force or implications of the fact that by age 22, Milledge has shown the ability to hold his own offensively and do things in the major leagues that Jay Payton couldn't do until he was much, much older. Your answer (# 32):

Debunked? With PECOTA? Please, Sam. The only reason Jay Payton didn't make his major league debut until 27 is because he had three catastrophic injuries. He was also, like Milledge, a scout's dream for most of his minaor league career.

At 22, Payton went .307, 18, 84 with 30 doubles and 90-plus runs scored between AA and AAA. He also had a better arm (a cannon, in fact) and was just fast, if not faster. Oh, and his 2003 season with the Rockies? He hit .281 on the road, and hit 15 of his 28 home runs outside Coors.

Milledge will likely be a better player than Payton, as he will probably prove to be more healthy, but he's not, IMO, going to be an All-Star.

At 22, Payton went .307, 18, 84 with 30 doubles and 90-plus runs scored between AA and AAA.

At 22, Milledge was in the majors. Simple fact: Milledge hit better in the majors at 22 than Payton did at 27. It makes no sense to compare the two.

You're wrong in this one. Suck it up like a good little boy and call it a night...

The only reason Jay Payton didn't make his major league debut until 27 is because he had three catastrophic injuries. He was also, like Milledge, a scout's dream for most of his minaor league career.

I don't think we're as far off in our disagreement as it may seem from the rhetoric. Pre-injury Payton *was* a top prospect and an extremely valuable property.

I don't think any Mets Primate thinks Milledge will be as good as Reyes or Wright or Fernando, but Lastings be in the next tier. And those are the type of supporting cast players that will be the difference between the Mets being neck and neck with the Phils and Braves and the Mets separating themselves from the pack.

"He's a solid hitter, so hopefully this is the year he puts it together,'' Randolph said. "He's hit some lefties. Is that his strong suit? Possibly not. But he might get better. He'll get the chance to face some lefties here."

"He's my right fielder, so he's going to play,'' Randolph said of the former Washington National. "When I see a guy like Ryan, I don't look at the past.''

It's not impossible that Willie can figure it out eventually - that if one shows patience, young players can reward an organization. I am skeptical, but it's not impossible.

This will never happen. Willie doesn't want to be a baseball manager, he wants to be a leader of men. You don't show people what a wonderful leader of men you are by sitting around waiting for some kid to figure things out. You do it by shitting on him over and over, publicly if possible. See, e.g. Dusty Baker.

The only reason Jay Payton didn't make his major league debut until 27 is because he had three catastrophic injuries. He was also, like Milledge, a scout's dream for most of his minaor league career.

At 22, Payton went .307, 18, 84 with 30 doubles and 90-plus runs scored between AA and AAA. He also had a better arm (a cannon, in fact) and was just fast, if not faster. Oh, and his 2003 season with the Rockies? He hit .281 on the road, and hit 15 of his 28 home runs outside Coors.

So, is it your position that missing most of 3 out of 4 seasons between the ages 23 - 26 didn't hamper Jay Payton's development at all? Because unless it is, you can't very well compare Milledge to Payton as a prospect and use that as a basis for concluding that Milledge will be a comparable professional to Payton.

Willie doesn't want to be a baseball manager, he wants to be a leader of men. You don't show people what a wonderful leader of men you are by sitting around waiting for some kid to figure things out. You do it by shitting on him over and over, publicly if possible. See, e.g. Dusty Baker.

I'm not so sure about this. It's possible, but not etched in destiny. When I hear Baker, I hear someone who is already formed. Obstinate, determined in how baseball works.

I hear that from Willie, but to me, it's always struck me as macho bravado rather than a "this is how the world is" stance. That is - like most men - Willie doesn't like to admit that he is wrong or ignorant about something. Thrust in an uncertain situation, he'll revert to cliches or veteran proverbs - we just have to work harder, we just have to play winning baseball, etc. But that's the public strutting which most men will display. Whether Willie will learn and adapt, I think that's still to be determined.

Sam brought up Minaya's real quandry regarding Milledge, the "media beasts". It was clear they were going to hound him on the air and in the press. I don't think the radio guys were that bad on him, but Cohen and Hernandez were relentless. Could Omar keep him around under those circumstances? Wouldn't he become the guy the Wagners and LoDucas could always use as a scapegoat?
I hope he reaches his potential under Acta, even if it hurts us.

Will the Mets (and by this, I mean Omar), do the right thing and fire Willie to hire Acta even if the Mets are successful this year? Anything short of winning the WS, and Randolph needs to pack his bags, IMHO.

The only reason Jay Payton didn't make his major league debut until 27 is because he had three catastrophic injuries. He was also, like Milledge, a scout's dream for most of his minaor league career.

The injuries do not change the fact that Milledge outperformed Payton at similar ages and levels.

At 22, Payton went .307, 18, 84 with 30 doubles and 90-plus runs scored between AA and AAA. He also had a better arm (a cannon, in fact) and was just fast, if not faster.

Like I said, he was great in AA, but mediocre in AAA.

At 22, Milledge was performing credibly in MLB.

Oh, and his 2003 season with the Rockies? He hit .281 on the road, and hit 15 of his 28 home runs outside Coors.

He was no longer a CF by then. He was a LF. His 2003 numbers are around average for a LF. He had 3 years, ages 27, 29, 30 where he was average. That's it.

Will the Mets (and by this, I mean Omar), do the right thing and fire Willie to hire Acta even if the Mets are successful this year? Anything short of winning the WS, and Randolph needs to pack his bags, IMHO.

Come on. If the Mets don't win the NL East, Willie should be fired. I can see that. But other than that, I don't see any justification for firing him.

Apparently the Mets shopped El Duque around with the hope so that they could sign Kyle Lohse. Pretty interesting. Are 125-150 IP of 105-115 ERA+ pitching more valuable than 180-190 IP of 95-100 ERA+ pitching. On a team like the Mets without much depth in the minors, I'd say the latter.

Agreed, particularly since the 125-150 IP has a strong shot at being closer to 70-90 IP.

As far as unimaginative, forced, same race baseball player comparisons go, I really prefer Lastings Milledge-Shannon Stewart. Because it isn’t THAT unimaginative! I expect several Stewart V. 2000 seasons from Lastings. But goddamnit man… if one was accused of kicking game to 13 year old girls as a senior in High School, he JUST might want to refrain from laying down Hip Hop tracks featuring misogynistic lyrics. Is that the right word? #### it, I’m tired, I’m not looking it up.

The main point is, if this crazy world was just a little more tolerant, Justin Morneau and Fred McGriff’s hitting styles would be compared all the time. I’m Matt Waters, and this was Sports Reporters.

Giving up Milledge for so little is always going to sting.

"He's a solid hitter, so hopefully this is the year he puts it together,'' Randolph said. "He's hit some lefties. Is that his strong suit? Possibly not. But he might get better. He'll get the chance to face some lefties here."

Willie Randolph's latest selection from his favorite Symphony, Platoon Outfielders in F'n-Major! Last year, it was the Shawn Green Variation. This year, we get A Little Church Music. He'll get his chance to face lefties -- which is to say, Willie will piss away ABs while the season burns. Why? Because that's what Willie does, when a guy is a Proven Veteran™. He wastes them on Green, on Mota, and he'll waste them on Church in situations Church can't handle -- ABs he would NEVER give to a young player who has failed in the innumerable situations in which Church WILL fail against LHP, just as Green failed against LHP last year until even Randolph finally gave up (almost, but not quite, entirely).

"He might get better." Ryan Church "might get better." So Randolph will go to the wars with him. But Lastings Milledge? Throw him to the wolves, then exile him. Because . . . well, he'll never get better, and anyway there's no time to wait.

"He's my right fielder, so he's going to play,'' Randolph said of the former Washington National. "When I see a guy like Ryan, I don't look at the past.''

What exactly does that mean -- "a guy like Ryan"? If Randolph doesn't mean a guy who fits his Proven Veteran™ mold -- a guy who plays the game the way Willie wants it played with nary a ripple on the pond -- then what does that mean? And if you're not looking at the past, Willie, I guarantee it will be catching up to you. Because it will soon be the present. Ryan Church isn't going to be able to hit LHP in 2008 any better than he's hit them in the past.

Gee, I'm not so sure Ryan Church qualifies as a "proven veteran" under your scenario, Sam M. He has just one season as a full-timer under his belt. I'm not saying you're wrong about how he will be used/mis-used. But it's kind of a stretch to say he is being treated like he is because of his veteran juju.

Will the Mets (and by this, I mean Omar), do the right thing and fire Willie to hire Acta even if the Mets are successful this year? Anything short of winning the WS, and Randolph needs to pack his bags, IMHO.

Just because the Mets got a manager from Washington four decades ago doesn't mean it's going to happen again. Get over it.

Hmm... who is the 2008 version of Bill Denehy?

Let's go with Nelson Figueroa. Nelson Figueroa and cash for Manny Acta.

I wonder if heals is ever going to provide his mystery exec...