Baseball has every right to unapologetically point out that no matter how deep the steroid crisis in the game is, it has only affected competition — something that’s not the case in, say, bodybuilding, prowrestling, and even football, which have seen violence, suicide, mental illness and all sorts of early deaths connected to steroid use.

This is true, but I'm not sure what sort of a consolation that is for fans---that it's "only" affected competition!

Ken Caminiti

Ken Caminiti

Cocaine and heroin, you mean?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/10/11/entertainment/main648472.shtml

Tissue and toxicology tests confirmed Caminiti's cause of death as "acute intoxication due to the combined effects of cocaine and opiates," Brugess said. She said those drugs had weakened his heart.

Crosby:

IIRC, Caminiti died of a drug overdose with an enlarged heart as a complicating factor. Obviously, I don't know all the drugs he was doing, but he was a steroids user, and an enlarged heart is a consequence of anabolic steroids abuse. It would not be surprising if it was a combination of cocaine, steroids, and perhaps other drugs that contributed to his death.

I'm confused. In the first two paragraphs, he seems to be pointing to steroids' lack of culpability in the Benoit case. However, in the final paragraph, he's campaigning baseball to champion that they;ve had no issues with the psychotic problems associated with steroids. So which is it? Do steroids cause major psychosis which may have contributed to Benoit killing his family or don't they? you can't have it both ways.

IMHO, steroids probably contributed to Benoit's crumbling mental state which lead him to his actions. How much they contributed will never be known.

I wouldn't be surprised if Chris Nowinski (sp) is right on this issue. I know little about wrestling, but one of the main reasons some of these NFL guys are dying early appears to be head trauma. How common is that in baseball? Tony Conigliaro? Did they do an autopsy on Tony C?

It would not be surprising if it was a combination of cocaine, steroids, and perhaps other drugs that contributed to his death.

It was common knowledge that Caminiti used steroids, yet it wasn't mentioned by the coroner as a cause of death. I'm sure Caminiti ate red meat and fried foods, he was overweight, and he might have had a family history of heart disease, which all might contribute to a weaker heart.

But it's really a stretch to get away from the primary reason he died, and the reason quoted by those who autopsied him: a drug overdose. His death was 3 years after leaving baseball and 8 years after the season he admitted to steroid use; more than enough time has passed that labelling this a "steroid-related death" is a gross overstatement of the facts.

I think there is a terrible lack of understanding concerning steroids. I think most fans think steroids means home runs. But it almost seems to me like steroids is more being utilized to help players recover from injuries quicker and prolong their playing careers. I heard some commentator say the other day that since Craig Biggio was old and not a home run hitter, of course he wasn't on roids. I don't think that Biggio is doing steroids, but he's a lot more likely a candidate in my mind than a younger home run hitter.

But it's really a stretch to get away from the primary reason he died, and the reason quoted by those who autopsied him: a drug overdose. His death was 3 years after leaving baseball and 8 years after the season he admitted to steroid use; more than enough time has passed that labelling this a "steroid-related death" is a gross overstatement of the facts.

So, the enlarged heart caused by his steroids use should just go away? All I said was that he had an enlarged heart (a classic symptom of steroids abuse) that was a complicating factor, and sure enough my memory was right:

From Wikipedia:

Caminiti died of an apparent heart attack in The Bronx on October 10, 2004 at New York's Lincoln Memorial Hospital. Preliminary news reports on October 15, 2004 indicated he died of a drug overdose. Rob Silva, an acquaintance of Caminiti who spent part of the day with him on October 10, told Newsday that Caminiti was edgy and depressed on the day he died, but also said he did not witness Caminiti using drugs on that day. On November 1, the New York City Medical Examiners Office announced that Caminiti died from "acute intoxication due to the combined effects of cocaine and opiates," but coronary artery disease and cardiac hypertrophy (an enlarged heart) were also contributing factors.

What interests me is the convergence of drug abuse and steroids abuse, and death. How many prior MLB drug users have died of heart attacks in their late 30s - early 40s? That whole 70s - 80s crew of drug addicts: how many of them died? Caminiti's death is a lot like the deaths of pro wrestlers. Is he the first of a rash of such deaths? Is he an outlier? I don't know.

That whole 70s - 80s crew of drug addicts: how many of them died?

Rod Scurry, Steve Howe, Eric Show, and LaMarr Hoyt.

That's it, right? Willie Aikens, Willie Wilson, Lonnie Smith, Dave Parker, Dwight Gooden, Darryl Strawberry, Keith Hernandez, they're all still here. Who am I missing?

Do steroids cause major psychosis which may have contributed to Benoit killing his family or don't they?

That is a false dichotomy. One might believe that steroids cause short-term "bursts of rage" that contribute to violence (which we haven't seen a documented case of in baseball) and yet that the circumstances of the Benoit murder/suicide (premeditation, carried out on separate days, the placing of the Bible by the corpses) are not correlated with such effects.

If steroids were at all related to Benoit's actions, more likely than not, it was from withdrawal as opposed to usage. A physiological effect of ending a steroid cycle is lowered testosterone levels, which are believed (but not proven) to be depressive.

That said, the incidence of "roid rage" in itself is questionable. There is far from a scientific consensus on the matter. The odds that steroids "cause major psychosis" are fairly low. Perhaps steroids exacerbate preexisting psychoses but that's a fairly difficult thing to isolate and prove.

LaMarr Hoyt is dead? Why did I think he's still alive?

Aw, crap, he is still alive. He's like the Abe Vigoda of '80s baseball.

Sorry, LaMarr.

That's it, right? Willie Aikens, Willie Wilson, Lonnie Smith, Dave Parker, Dwight Gooden, Darryl Strawberry, Keith Hernandez, they're all still here. Who am I missing?

Vida Blue, Paul Molitor, Tim Raines all still with us.

There's a well-established link between steroid use and coronary/vascular disease. those things don't go away once you stop taking them.

I am not denying that. Caminiti may very well have coronary problems due to steroid use, but he still overdosed on cocaine and opiates. It's like the guy who got hit by a car while on crutches for a broken leg. The broken leg may have contributed to him not being able to get out of the way of the car, but it's the car that killed him, not the broken leg. It certainly isn't a good indication that broken legs are deadly.

Given a fairly extensive and documented history of steroid use over the past few decades, you should be able to find much less muddy examples of the negative health effects than Caminiti. It's a very serious stretch to cherry pick steroid use out of all the things he was doing that endangered his heart and claim that's the cause of death.

Vida Blue, Paul Molitor, Tim Raines all still with us.

Dock Ellis.

That is a false dichotomy. One might believe that steroids cause short-term "bursts of rage" that contribute to violence (which we haven't seen a documented case of in baseball) and yet that the circumstances of the Benoit murder/suicide (premeditation, carried out on separate days, the placing of the Bible by the corpses) are not correlated with such effects.

If steroids were at all related to Benoit's actions, more likely than not, it was from withdrawal as opposed to usage. A physiological effect of ending a steroid cycle is lowered testosterone levels, which are believed (but not proven) to be depressive.

That said, the incidence of "roid rage" in itself is questionable. There is far from a scientific consensus on the matter. The odds that steroids "cause major psychosis" are fairly low. Perhaps steroids exacerbate preexisting psychoses but that's a fairly difficult thing to isolate and prove.

Now you're just engaging in semantics. W/drawing from steroids is part of using steroids. Steroids users cycle their steroids. Steroids usage, of which withdrawal is then a part, IS linked, is PROVEN, to be connected to mood alteration, including depression. As I said yesterday, this is why steroids are one treatment of depression.

Vida Blue, Paul Molitor, Tim Raines all still with us.

Dock Ellis.

Ellis Valentine, Jerry Martin...

Given a fairly extensive and documented history of steroid use over the past few decades, you should be able to find much less muddy examples of the negative health effects than Caminiti. It's a very serious stretch to cherry pick steroid use out of all the things he was doing that endangered his heart and claim that's the cause of death.

What "extensive and documented history of steroid use" in baseball? If you don't mean baseball, I'll happily talk about football and wrestling. As I said, I wonder whether Caminiti's is the beginning of baseball's own wonderful history of steroid related death's. And I don't claim it is the "cause." (For two reasons: People here play games with "causal" claims, and I don't think it was the primary cause.) I claim it's related.

Steroids usage, of which withdrawal is then a part, IS linked, is PROVEN, to be connected to mood alteration, including depression.

Actually, I wasn't trying to be cute with that at all. I'm saying that if the steroids are a contributing factor (and I'm not convinced that they were), it isn't the traditional rage-based outburst generally associated with steroid-related violence, but a depressive effect based on the body's rebound.

I think it quite possible that Benoit just was a troubled person and did a terrible thing because he was troubled. If Benoit was using steroids (and perhaps we'll find out via autopsy results) then I think it may very well have been a spark to an already dangerous personality. I find it highly unlikely that Benoit was a mild-mannered normal person who was transformed into a murderer by steroids a la Reefer Madness.

I should add that such a troubled person tends to find some outlet for their issues. Normal people don't do what Benoit did even under the influence of much more directly mood-affecting substances.

That's it, right? Willie Aikens, Willie Wilson, Lonnie Smith, Dave Parker, Dwight Gooden, Darryl Strawberry, Keith Hernandez, they're all still here. Who am I missing?

Alan Wiggins is dead.

This is true, but I'm not sure what sort of a consolation that is for fans---that it's "only" affected competition!

Don't worry folks, nothing to see here ... none of *our* players have murdered anyone!!!!

From wiki:

After being traded to the Orioles the following year, Wiggins reportedly began to battle drug problems and was a bit of a distraction. After a bad 1987 season where he batted .232 with only 20 stolen bases, and was put out on the base paths twice in a single season by means of the hidden ball trick, he was released by the Orioles on September 29. A promising career seemed to be disrupted by drug use.

Alan Wiggins died in a hospital in his hometown of Los Angeles, on January 6, 1991, reportedly of complications due to AIDS. Most believe he fell victim to the disease through his drug problems; he was only 32 years old at the time of his death. He is the first baseball player known to have succumbed to the AIDS virus.

Rod Scurry, Steve Howe, Eric Show, and LaMarr Hoyt.

I thought that Steve Howe died in a car accident.

Don't worry folks, nothing to see here ... none of our players have murdered anyone!!!!

One of em tried - Donnie Moore.

"Alan Wiggins is dead."

Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead.

I thought that Steve Howe died in a car accident.

The Volvo that hit him? It used to be owned by Lyle Alzado.

Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead.

Stop giving ideas to necromancers!

I thought that Steve Howe died in a car accident.

Autopsy showed meth in his system at the time he crashed his pickup truck.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2503090

Baseball has every right to unapologetically point out that no matter how deep the steroid crisis in the game is, it has only affected competition — something that's not the case in, say, bodybuilding, prowrestling, and even football, which have seen violence, suicide, mental illness and all sorts of early deaths connected to steroid use.

How do you write this right before warning about playing "into the hands of hysterics"?

Marchman is too smart to say that steroids cause violence, suicide, mental illness and early deaths. But he tricks the reader by suggesting it by saying the use of the drug is "connected" to it. So, too, is the use of anti-inflammatories, over-the-counter pain medication and breathing.

Steroids are only proven to cause mostly cosmetic and reversable problems such as acne, hair loss and infertility. Steroids have been used in medicine for many years and none of these more serious dangers have been documented. It's all a concoction to play into our desire for there to be some Faustian consequence to steroid use. And remember, we're basically only talking about testosterone here for performance enhancement purposes and that's produced naturally by the body. HGH does not increase strength at all, that's proven in many studies where's it's been used to make older people feel and look better (heaven forbid).

Go rent the 30th anniversary of the Pumping Iron DVD and see how good all those guys look decades after practically drinking the stuff without any medical supervision at all. They're all alive, too.

Sweet. I knew it was only a matter of time before (1) someone wrote an column about Benoit, steroids, and baseball and (2) Repoz linked to it.

Actually, I wasn't trying to be cute with that at all. I'm saying that if the steroids are a contributing factor (and I'm not convinced that they were), it isn't the traditional rage-based outburst generally associated with steroid-related violence, but a depressive effect based on the body's rebound.

I completely agree, Crosby. I think that depression is the likely cause, and my guess is that it was triggered by cycling down from 'roids.

It's a testament either to how central baseball is in my mind or how little I care about wrestling that my first thought upon reading the healdine was, "Joaquin Benoit tested positive for steroids?"

You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions there, Crosby. You're assuming that:

No, the assumption is that steroids are relevant at all, as there are many cases of men with no criminal history offing their families in similarly hideous ways without having ever taken steroids.

Well, it's a fair assumption IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, as there were steroids in the home, he was a steroids user, and steroids are connected to depressive behavior.

Yah, like that's gonna continue, with the draft tonight.

Yah, like that's gonna continue, with the draft tonight.

That was a fun thread!

Well, it's a fair assumption IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, as there were steroids in the home, he was a steroids user, and steroids are connected to depressive behavior.

There are many steroids and only testosterone and HGH are at all relevant to the performance-ehancement debate (even though HGH does NOT enhance performance in any scientifically provable way). Glucocorticoids are linked to depression. But these steroids are not used by athletes and, in fact, testosterone is used to counterbalance the side-effects of that type of steroid.

Testosterone is actually prescribed to cure depression, as many depressed men have been found to have low levels of testosterone. These drugs make you feel better, not worse. Of course, it's all relatively speaking. Maybe Benoit needed MORE testosterone.

That play has too many adjectives for you, kev.

I was expecting a Ford's Theater crack by now. I'm disappointed.

LaMarr Hoyt is dead? Why did I think he's still alive?


Last I heard, he had beat his drug demons and was working for the White Sox. There was some press coverage of that situation when it happened.


How many prior MLB drug users have died of heart attacks in their late 30s - early 40s?

I don't know of any other person other than Caminiti that died U45 from an internal cause over that period. JR Richard may have come close, but he is probably outside of 20 years and he survived.

I don't recall the exact COD listed for Bechler, but he may be another internal cause of death. However, like Caminiti, we have a direct link to a drug, ephedra, as a contributing cause.

That whole 70s - 80s crew of drug addicts: how many of them died?

Using 2003 NSC statistics, we would expect to lose about 1.15% of the total population from accidental and external causes over a 20 year period (about a 1 in 1743 chance per year of dying from an external cause). I don't have U45 numbers, lists of deaths, etc for MLB players or MLB cokeheads. However, eyeballing the names listed, it looks like the MLB total numbers are about normal, but the cokehead population is pretty high. I don't know what happens to the MLB population if we start adding in the Josh Hancock and Mike Darr's, but transport accidents are one of the highest external causes (with MVA's being the mack daddy in that class).

Of course, Pro Wrestlers in that timespan are off the chart. That is particularly so when you look at the U45 population and the incident of internal causes of death (using the prior drug use only as a complicating factor). If you use the accident causes, we would have expected to lose about 11 or 12 wrestlers (with no discount for U45) over 20 years.

I only have 1996 breakdowns on internal causes. The incidence of heart problems should have taken out about 0.8% of the U45 population. That would add another 8 wrestlers over 20 years.

In the last 10 years (not to mention the first 10 years of the 20 year cycle), we have lost 65 U45 wrestlers. (data courtesy of USA Today, but I don't have the link).

The thing you are going to face with any of these compilations is sketchy data, the Jeremy syndrome, and some weird apologetics.

The first is obvious, its going to be difficult to isolate the actual drug users. The second is the "Jason took them and he didn't die." We don't expect him to die. We do expect he will have adverse health effects and substantially increase his chance of dying beyond any meaningful threshold, and increasing his odds of dying by other causes at a very dangerous level.

And if this sketchy data conforms to any actual incidence rates, the excuses of:
(a) You can die from a car;
(b) You can die from running into an at outfield wall.
(c) bar bar bar

is anywhere close to starting to be illustrative, you can add those things all together and multiply by some number and this type of drug abuse will still be higher.

Its also highly preventable, particularly if the drug is not a precondition for employment. As I've stated, if an adult wants to take that informed risk, I am not so paternalistic that I want to stop him. But I do want to stop it from being a necessary indicia to employment and whatever level of coercion that imparts to the relevant labor force.

Finally, the apologetics on this are really starting to get weird. If its a preventable, contributing cause to an incident of death that seems like something that should cause concern regardless of the most prevalent cause of the loss of life.

I can only imagine the dictionary posts we are about to get, but contributing means contributing. If "but for" steroid abuse the person would have lived, it seems a pretty good idea to remove steroid abuse (all previous caveats about paternalism and what to regulate apply). And guess what, regardless of whether broken legs are contributing to MVAs at any significant rate, I THINK ITS A GOOD IDEA TO TRY AND AVOID BREAKING YOUR LEG. One big difference here is that breaking your leg may be external to your control, PED abuse is not external to your control.

I miss Chris Benoit :( I guess there won't ever be another 4 Horsemen revival.

Unless you guys were serious about that necromancer.

Testosterone is actually prescribed to cure depression, as many depressed men have been found to have low levels of testosterone. These drugs make you feel better, not worse. Of course, it's all relatively speaking. Maybe Benoit needed MORE testosterone.

Already addressed twice by me. There's a study by a British group on a cohort of gay men who used anabolics and worked out and it discovered, surprise surprise, that cycling anabolic steroids contributes to an increase in clinical depression. It's one of a number of studies that show this link.

Steroids are only proven to cause mostly cosmetic and reversable problems such as acne, hair loss and infertility. Steroids have been used in medicine for many years and none of these more serious dangers have been documented. It's all a concoction to play into our desire for there to be some Faustian consequence to steroid use.

Speaking of concoctions, I can attest to having no such desire, and have no idea what makes you think "our desire" is what you say it is.

Actually, tonight, I'm going to see "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead" at the Studio theatre here in the nation's capital.

Anybody ever been there before? can you give me a preview?.

Here's my preview:

Don't have anything to do with that play unless it's either watch it or death, and even then it's a tough decision.

Finally, the apologetics on this are really starting to get weird.

I agree. What's interesting about some of the deflection from INTEREST in probing the connection b/w 'roids is these deaths is that they seem to come from the same people who want to shift the blame for the steroids "epidemic" from the players to MLB management. How on earth would you have MLB management get involved when you believe there's no connection to health issues or that people ought to be free to do what they want w/their bodies and their family members?

An unreasonable assumption is that, despite the presence of large amounts of steroids in the house that were prescribed to the murderer, they had nothing to do with the killings.

"Large amounts"? Where did that come from?

What I've read of his doctor's statements, the steroids they found in the house were medically indicated for low testosterone. If anything, they were to treat an already existing depressive condition, not the cause. (If that condition was exacerbated by prior steroid abuse, I couldn't say.)

An overwhelming percentage of people who are taking or have taken steroids don't kill their families and themselves. An overwhelming percentage of homicide/suicides are performed by people with no connection to steroids.

What makes Benoit special in that steroids had this effect on him when hundreds of thousands of people take steroids either legitimately or illegally without becoming murderers? I reject the idea that they were a trigger, implying cause. I can accept the possibility that they were a catalyst, but I'd maintain that Benoit would have found some other catalyst if steroids didn't exist (the most likely one would probably be alcohol).

that placing a bible next to a dead body is not compatible with a passion killing

It's actually completely consistent with it. Kill in the heat of passion (or 'roid rage); place the Bible when the passion/rage dies down. How is that even debatable? The whole premise behind a passion killing or roid rage killing is that the passion/roid rage is temporary.

Testosterone is actually prescribed to cure depression, as many depressed men have been found to have low levels of testosterone. These drugs make you feel better, not worse. Of course, it's all relatively speaking. Maybe Benoit needed MORE testosterone.


Maybe he did. What happened with Benoit is to unknown at this point.

Nevertheless, I think one thing you are missing is that when you cycle of steroids, the amount of testerone is extremely low. In fact, newer clinical tests are focused at using mood stabilizers to alleviate the incidence of depression after cycling off steroids. Both SSRI's and lithium have been used in conjunction with steroid therapy. This is particularly true for women and people that are taking corticosteroids for indicated purposes.

That's it, right? Willie Aikens, Willie Wilson, Lonnie Smith, Dave Parker, Dwight Gooden, Darryl Strawberry, Keith Hernandez, they're all still here. Who am I missing?

Darrell Porter.

No, the assumption is that steroids are relevant at all, as there are many cases of men with no criminal history offing their families in similarly hideous ways without having ever taken steroids.

Which proves nothing about whether steroid users are more likely to do so.

Finally, the apologetics on this are really starting to get weird. If its a preventable, contributing cause to an incident of death that seems like something that should cause concern regardless of the most prevalent cause of the loss of life.

It's indeed really weird that so many people would strive to prove and believe the harmlessness of steroids simply to prove their thoughts about modern baseball players.

Wasn't Darrell Porter a user or am I imagining things?

I THINK ITS A GOOD IDEA TO TRY AND AVOID BREAKING YOUR LEG.

I think it's a good idea to not take steroids (without appropriate medical indication and/or regular evaluation). We don't need to twist the facts of Caminiti's death to make that point. If anything, it diminishes the legitimacy of a very reasonable anti-steroid argument to point to the easily rejected case of Caminiti, in much the same way that the Reefer Madness movie was damaging to the credibility of the anti-marijuana movement.

Like you, I want PEDs out of professional sports because of the coercive and health effects, so I don't see this as apologetics at all. Caminiti died because he abused his body with an overdose. Benoit killed his family because there was something wrong with him mentally. The fact that both used steroids at some point in their lives is not particularly significant; without the drug overdose, Caminiti is alive and without the mental issues, Benoit and his family are alive independent of any steroid use.

Darrell Porter died of a cocaine overdose. Willie Aikens is still technically "here", but not as a free man.

Like you, I want PEDs out of professional sports because of the coercive and health effects, so I don't see this as apologetics at all. Caminiti died because he abused his body with an overdose. Benoit killed his family because there was something wrong with him mentally. The fact that both used steroids at some point in their lives is not particularly significant; without the drug overdose, Caminiti is alive and without the mental issues, Benoit and his family are alive independent of any steroid use.

And you know all this how? The coroner said Caminiti's enlarged heart contributed to his death, and steroids enlarge hearts. But we should take your word he'd still be alive and not have had his heart attack had he never taken steroids? Let me ask another question: how do you know his cocaine use is unrelated to his steroids use?

I agree. What's interesting about some of the deflection from INTEREST in probing the connection b/w 'roids is these deaths is that they seem to come from the same people who want to shift the blame for the steroids "epidemic" from the players to MLB management.

Yep, and the same group that berated the Union for "jumping to conclusions" and convicting Bonds for "his big head," are the same ones also dropping complete conclusions on why Benoit performed his actions. More illustratively, it is not even an individually thought out or articulated hypothesis. Its just a cut and paste talking point from the WWE website.

Of course, two years from now, you will have legions spouting, "You convicted Benoit b/c of the steroids." Yet, no one has ever said anything other than the presence of those steroids and the other incidents in Pro Wrestling warrant some additional investigation. The only advocacy is deflecting ridiculous arguments about steroids and mood.

Meanwhile, you have one post that inches so close to saying Benoit would have killed his family anyway because of too many Molsons. Which is really out there b/c I have no knowledge of alcoholism, recreational drug abuse, or any type of affective disorder with Benoit prior to this incident. The most you have is his profession and an affidavit that said he threatened domestic violence.

It's actually completely consistent with it. Kill in the heat of passion (or 'roid rage); place the Bible when the passion/rage dies down. How is that even debatable? The whole premise behind a passion killing or roid rage killing is that the passion/roid rage is temporary.


There are many factors to be explored on these deaths and where/how Benoit's conditions played a part. Nancy being bound is interested and leads to speculation about possible non-intentional, albeit reckless causes, as well as 'roid rage. The time between Nancy and Daniel's death is also unusual. Motive in the two killings could be disjoint, and any narcotic contributions to the three deaths could be seperate.

Daniel was combatting Fragile X syndrome and it is reported had problems with dwarfism and mental retardation. Care was a big issue. Benoit could have had multiple different reactions to the death of Nancy vis a vis Daniel regardless of how Nancy met her demise.

I could see combinations of 'roid rage, negligent homicide, depression, remorse, brain damage, and other causes playing a part. It will never be totally clear, but the toxicology report will allow more informed hypothesis. I agree with Nowonski that an examination of Benoit's brain could also be illuminating, but that does not seem likely to occur.

Aw, crap, he is still alive.

Well, excuse him for living!

I agree. What's interesting about some of the deflection from INTEREST in probing the connection b/w 'roids is these deaths is that they seem to come from the same people who want to shift the blame for the steroids "epidemic" from the players to MLB management.

This is not the case at all. People just don't want analysis of this situation to be reduced to OMG ROID RAGE STEROIDS CAUSED THE DEATH!!!!!!!!!1111111 as you're seeing in the media.

Yes, steroids have been linked to depression.

Do you know what also contributes to clinical depression? Having your best friend die suddenly of a heart attack. Not knowing how to care for your mentally disabled child as he gets older. First being injured and not being able to work in your profession that your life has been centered around and then, once you get back, being demoted for no particular reason.

The fact is that steroids aren't being reported as a part of a very complex story, they're being reported as the key, central aspect of the story.

Making any issue in which steroids is even tangentially related into an issue that is primarily about steroids detracts from the power that responsible reporting about steroids has.

The fact that both used steroids at some point in their lives is not particularly significant; without the drug overdose, Caminiti is alive and without the mental issues, Benoit and his family are alive independent of any steroid use.

Neither of these is remotely proven. We know Caminiti had an enlarged heart that could have gone at any time (and there's a steroid-using athlete whose name I forget that died from an enlarged heart without the drug overdose).

To say the wrestler's "mental issues" were independent of steroid use is, to put it mildly, unproven.

This is not the case at all. People just don't want analysis of this situation to be reduced to OMG ROID RAGE STEROIDS CAUSED THE DEATH!!!!!!!!!1111111 as you're seeing in the media.

Fine and worthy point. Now, who HERE is claiming that? Why HERE are we being subjected to iron-clad assertions that this all would have happened anyway; iow, that steroids are IRRELEVANT to these incidents? Isn't that dogmatic and imprudent?

And you know all this how? The coroner said Caminiti's enlarged heart contributed to his death, and steroids enlarge hearts.

Cocaine also enlarges the heart, and Caminiti's struggles with cocaine were well-documented and much closer to the time of his death.

But we should take your word he'd still be alive and not have had his heart attack had he never taken steroids?

That is not the same thing that I said. I said Caminiti would have lived without overdosing on cocaine/heroin; that's the cause of his death.

I don't think anyone can say for sure whether Caminiti would have survived the overdose if he hadn't used steroids in the past. I think it's clear that the drug overdose wasn't incidental to his death as it was the primary cause of death; it is all but certain that without that overdose, Caminiti doesn't die that night. It is far from certain that he lives through the overdose if he didn't even touch steroids.

Let me ask another question: how do you know his cocaine use is unrelated to his steroids use?

Are you aware of any correlation between steroid use and cocaine use? Any sort of study indicating that steroids are a gateway to cocaine?

Yep, and the same group that berated the Union for "jumping to conclusions" and convicting Bonds for "his big head," are the same ones also dropping complete conclusions on why Benoit performed his actions. More illustratively, it is not even an individually thought out or articulated hypothesis. Its just a cut and paste talking point from the WWE website

As I wrote in an earlier thread, Bonds's expanded facial bone structure is of a piece with wrestlers' steroid-addled muscle structure, which are both of a piece with the bearded lady and the tossed dwarfs at the circus show.

There's something profoundly creepy -- and self-evidently dangerous -- in the spectacle of wrestlers 'roiding themselves up for the titillation of the cheering masses. Baseball is at least still sport, but there's a lot of the same impulse driving the masses cheering and defending Bonds and the other 'roiders.

Making any issue in which steroids is even tangentially related into an issue that is primarily about steroids detracts from the power that responsible reporting about steroids has.


Malarky. No one is doing anything of the sort. The journalistic reports indicate steroids were found in the home. Given the context of his profession, that is a reasonable question that is going to be asked.

The question of whether firearms and alcohol are also reasonable questions to be asked. And guess what, they usually are, that is where you get your cute one-liner about "Authorities believe alcohol was involved."

Questions about prior mood and domestic violence are going to be asked too. And they were, and they are being reported on. Questions about work conditions are going to be asked too. And they were and they are being reported on.

Reasons for this are because:

(1) Its topical and of interest;
(2) We know the ability for these things to be contributing factors; and
(3) We as a society have done a shitty job, are becoming more acutely aware and informed, or are facing epidemic problems with things like:
(a) Gun safety;
(b) Domestic violence;
(c) Mood;
(d) workplace coercion;
(e) alcohol abuse;
(f) drug abuse;and
(g) stress factors in job and personal lives.

To this point, there is nothing relevant that has not been reported on. The public is rightfully turning its attention to many important things such as:
(1) Workplace safety in professional wrestling;
(2) Mood affecting agents; and
(3) PED affects.

Benoit was one of my favorite wrestlers. He is someone I would have put on the list of having liked to have met. Prior to this incident, I would have thought his dedication to family and work ethic were virtues to be extolled. There is no cheap "out to get Bonds" excuse in this one.

Of course if you ask people concerned about PEDS, they are going to tell you their concerns. If you ask Nowrinski about brain damage from wrestling, he is going to tell you his concerns. That would be true regardless of the Benoit tragedgy. But because of the Benoit tragedy, its topical, so these people are going to be asked and they are going to inform us and educate us based on what they know.

The only "whipped up frenzy" is the knee jerk "reporters are making it about steroids" response. What would you suggest, the reporters not mention anything at all about steroids? That seems quite silly.

This is not the case at all. People just don't want analysis of this situation to be reduced to OMG ROID RAGE STEROIDS CAUSED THE DEATH!!!!!!!!!1111111 as you're seeing in the media.


But the more interesting question is why so many people on the board care so much about whether steroids are unfairly blamed. It's not as though the media doesn't affix blame wrongly in many other contexts, including to people.

(and there's a steroid-using athlete whose name I forget that died from an enlarged heart without the drug overdose).


Davey Boy Smith?

Are you aware of any correlation between steroid use and cocaine use? Any sort of study indicating that steroids are a gateway to cocaine?

If you read the deaths of wrestlers, even the testimonies of living wrestlers, you see a pattern of steroids and other drug issues. It's never just steroids, or just pain killers, or just cocaine. It's some mixture of all of them. I'm not arguing that steroids is a technical "gateway" drug, I'm simply asking whether we know about Caminiti that he started with coke, or that he started with steroids, or he started with coca cola. I don't know. And, understand, I'll follow the toxicology that says the primary cause was coke, but what makes you so sure he was not still using steroids? Steroids are notoriously difficult to kick.

And I agree with your point: You don't make arguments by twisting claims out of proportion. I don't think I'm doing that. I think instead I, we, am and are interested in pursuing all the leads. Benoit's death, the epidemic of deaths of wrestlers, ought to be motivation for vigilance about PEDs, particularly to those who, unlike you apparently, want either to let adults do whatever they want to do or who apparently deny there's any health concern at all (see Salfino above). There have been plenty of bodybuilders who've died or had steroids induced afflictions, including of course a few bodybuilder wrestlers, like "Superstar" Billy Graham.

Steroids, concussions or not, Benoit fits perfectly with the "Family Annihilator" profile mentioned by the doctor in this article. http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/266087/the_family_annihilator_fathers_who.html

Dr. Levin has provided a profile of the family annihilator as a middle-aged man, who appears to others (outside the family) to be a good provider, a loving father, and a faithful and loving husband. But he tends to be isolated, with no close friends or support system of his own, aside from his family. He has suffered with feelings of inadequacy and some form of long frustration. Ultimately, he suffers some catastrophic loss which leads to his crime. This trigger may be the loss of his job, or loss of money through a bad investment, but sometimes it is the impending loss of his wife. He doesn't hate his children, although he may hate his wife and blame her for his own problems. He has previously been a controlling man, within the family, but now feels powerless. Dr. Levin's belief is that the family annihilator wants revenge against his wife.

The term Family Annihilator is indescribably creepy. Yikes.

The fact is that steroids aren't being reported as a part of a very complex story, they're being reported as the key, central aspect of the story.

Making any issue in which steroids is even tangentially related into an issue that is primarily about steroids detracts from the power that responsible reporting about steroids has.</I>

This is precisely my feeling, although much more clearly expressed than I've been able to do in my recent posts.

that steroids are IRRELEVANT to these incidents

In the heat of argument, I may have overstated my case.

My position re: Caminiti is that steroids may or may not have contributed to the overall health of Caminiti's heart, but that whatever effect they may have had pales in comparision to the primary causes of his death. The fact of Caminiti's behavior regarding all the non-steroid substances he abused makes his case a poor one for considering his death "steroid-related."

My position re: Benoit is that steroids probably contributed to an alteration of his mood (given his doctor's testimony), but that such an alteration would not be sufficient to drive an otherwise normal person to kill his family and himself. I reach this conclusion in part by considering the overwhelming percentages of steroid users that don't kill people, and the overwhelming percentages of murders that are unrelated to steroids. I also reach this conclusion in recognition of other known factors about his life such as domestic problems and the stress of caring for an autistic child, and the circumstances that indicate deliberation in the killings.

But he tends to be isolated, with no close friends or support system of his own, aside from his family.

I'm not sure that Chavo Guerrero or Adam Copeland would agree that he has no close friends. But I guess 8 out of 9 or so can make it a hit (with such a generic description).

Of course, if you take out "faithful...husband", then you can get another 8 out of 9 match with Barry Bonds on his retirement day.

What's interesting about some of the deflection from INTEREST in probing the connection b/w 'roids is these deaths is that they seem to come from the same people who want to shift the blame for the steroids "epidemic" from the players to MLB management.

Don't know if I am included in this, but I thought I might be after my discussion with Andy on the Marvin Miller thread. One thing I try to stay away from on stroids discussions is technical and or speculative scientific discussions about how the drugs work or what they do or don't do, simply because:

I don't know much about it.
We almost never know what specific guys are taking and in what quantities.
I think it is clear that the drugs can be pretty damn dangerous if used in certain ways.
They are going to affect different people different ways.

In the case of Benoit, it certainly seems logical to discuss steroids as a causative/contributing factor and given the number of wrestlers who have died (27 since 1996 acoording to what I read) this is more indicative, if perhaps not definitive or conclusive, evidence. I am not sure why people have issues with bringing it up.

As far as MLB management, and the "shifting blame" issue, I will re-post one thing I said to Andy in the MM thread the other day, which, to Andy's credit, he was quite magnanimous about:

Andy: In the steroid wars, my two main issues have always been the effect of steroids on the game on the field (the level playing field issue), and the Hall of Fame.

Me: At the risk of sounding presumptuous, it seems to me, that this being the case, you should be REALLY pissed at Selig. The players and team personnel should on some level be trying to make the playing field as "slanted" their way as possible, by throwing spitballs, corking bats, taking greenies--whatever they can get away with. As Leo Durocher supposedly said to Branch Rickey, when explaining why he gave a pitcher named Tom Seats whiskey during a game: "There is a W column and and an L column, and my job is to put as many in the W column as I can." It was Rickey, who, if we believe Durocher's story, got rid of Tom Seats. The game's caretakers should be concerned with keeping the playing field "level." And the HoF is a macro issue that affects the game and its history, not something, I would imagine, that players, managers and coaches think about much on a day-to-day basis.

So, I don't see it as mutually exclusive. Players are responsible for what they did, but Selig is ostensibly the boss and bosses are supposed to step up. If Selig just set up the testing program and said "Everybody in baseball, starting with me, has to take some responsibility here" that would be fine. But now he's got this Committee and he's got Giambi saying "I'm a bad boy and that is no one's fault but mine."

So, I think if people want to "get to the bottom" (pun intended) of "The Steroid Era" they need to be looking at the TOP, in addition to ranting about the evil HR hitters "sticking needles in their butts." If that makes me a "blame-shifter", so be it.

We know Caminiti had an enlarged heart that could have gone at any time (and there's a steroid-using athlete whose name I forget that died from an enlarged heart without the drug overdose).

You do realize that a reasonable sampling of objective medical evidence is a Google search away, right? I'm amazed by how many here are so unscientific in their approach to things tangential to baseball while priding themselves on baseball's scientific study and mythbusting.

Most athletes have enlarged hearts whether or not they take steroids. Guess the number of epidemiological studies completed regarding the long-term implications of steroid use. I believe the answer remains zero. And most of the other studies involving steroids have been done on geriatric patients who are obviously prone to all kinds of health problems.

Someone cited a study of gay men who take testosterone and linked it to depression. Being gay is likely a factor in depression, given how much harder it makes your life and often negatively impacts family dynamics. It's absurd that a study on depression relating to steroid use would focus exclusively on gay men (I'm assuming the reader cited it correctly).

Remember, too, that black-market steroids are a problem because these drugs are not regulated and are manufactured in hap-hazard, often dangerous ways. And they're also taken without medical supervision. The people who want to criminalize steroid use on the basis of sketchy or even non-existent medical evidence ironically harm users far more than the drug itself. Until some reliable studies are done, health concerns are a straw man in the testosterone debate.

But the more interesting question is why so many people on the board care so much about whether steroids are unfairly blamed.

JC has half of it here.

Benoit's death, the epidemic of deaths of wrestlers, ought to be motivation for vigilance about PEDs, particularly to those who, unlike you apparently, want either to let adults do whatever they want to do

Extra weight placed on the significant of steroids is likely to lead to policy decisions that take away personal freedoms. Steroids are transformed from a drug that can be used responsibly that is abused by some into a fundamentally dangerous substance that should be banned for the good of the people.

Furthermore, the extra weight placed on steroids in cases like Benoit's detracts from more important issues, such as a person's own accountability (I don't want to see a series of "steroid defenses" to horrific acts) and mental illness (pinning this on steroids makes us less likely to focus on detecting and resolving the mental problems of others).

So that's why I care so much about it. I can't speak for others.

I was gonna comment on that same statement by Andy, but I agree with everything robinred said above, so, well, seconded.

I didn't have you in mind at all, RR. I apologize for not thinking of you.

Extra weight placed on the significant of steroids is likely to lead to policy decisions that take away personal freedoms. Steroids are transformed from a drug that can be used responsibly that is abused by some into a fundamentally dangerous substance that should be banned for the good of the people.

Oh, come on. This is not the war on drugs. There are no new steroid laws going on the books. The issue is that steroids have particular effects which make the use and abuse of steroids positively reinforced in numerous sports, and in the interests of public health, these sports ought to regulate steroid use.

The people who want to criminalize steroid use on the basis of sketchy or even non-existent medical evidence ironically harm users far more than the drug itself. Until some reliable studies are done, health concerns are a straw man in the testosterone debate.

Steroid use sans prescription already is criminal, so I'm not clear what you mean here. And arguing that health concerns are a "straw man" sounds to any open-eyed follower of the news like the "scientists" insisting there was no scientific proof of the deleterious effects of cigarette smoking.

arguing that health concerns are a "straw man" sounds to any open-eyed follower of the news like the "scientists" insisting there was no scientific proof of the deleterious effects of cigarette smoking.

Except that actual scientists proved the relationship through reliable medical studies that are non-existent regarding steroids. You understand the difference, right? "Science" doesn't talk out its ass, by definition.

Kevin-

The Studio Theatre's great. Creative, strong work-whenever I've seen a classic like R&G their they've always done a really interesting job of recreating it and putting a unique spin on it-I saw a Waiting for Godot with all black actors that used a lot of improv that was really fascinating. Intimate, well-designed space. I haven't been their in years, but enjoyed everything I saw.

Ooh, I forgot about that, nasby. Thanks for the remind.

Actually, tonight, I'm going to see "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead" at the Studio theatre here in the nation's capital.

Anybody ever been there before? can you give me a preview?.

Watch out for the fat guy wearing a belt.

Extra weight placed on the significant of steroids is likely to lead to policy decisions that take away personal freedoms.

I'm pro-personal freedom in almost every particular, but I also look at what the freedom entails, and will naturally concern myself less about freedom to pursue frivolous ends, especially when pursuing frivolity uses resources potentially used for better ends. I put the showy body steroid users alongside plastic surgery for old biddies on Park Avenue. Doctors doing plastic surgery and prescribing steroids to vain old rich guys (which happens a lot even now) should be doing much more productive things with their talents.

I didn't have you in mind at all, RR. I apologize for not thinking of you

Not surprising. I am the James Denton of BTF, according to the TJ Simers paradigm. My posts are "Desperate Cries for Attention."

Someone cited a study of gay men who take testosterone and linked it to depression. Being gay is likely a factor in depression, given how much harder it makes your life and often negatively impacts family dynamics. It's absurd that a study on depression relating to steroid use would focus exclusively on gay men (I'm assuming the reader cited it correctly).

LOL. Thanks, Mr. Ph.D. I've read the study and I'll inform the lead researcher of your views on the absurdity of his study. I'm gonna clue you in to something, though: When guys put together (even absurd) studies, they account for all kinds of variables. So when they report an increase in depression among those studied, they'll already be accounting for the likelihood of that cohort to experience depression or whatever else they're looking for.

Most athletes have enlarged hearts whether or not they take steroids.

They do? In what sense? Most athletes suffer hypertrophy; is that your claim? I'll ask my brother about that.

Remember, too, that black-market steroids are a problem because these drugs are not regulated and are manufactured in hap-hazard, often dangerous ways. And they're also taken without medical supervision. The people who want to criminalize steroid use on the basis of sketchy or even non-existent medical evidence ironically harm users far more than the drug itself.

Let me see if I understand this: we should not criminalize the manufacture, distribution, and use of these drugs as it harms the athletes, and yet, it's the unregulated, hap-hazard, "dangerous" manufacture and unsupervised use of the drugs that causes these strange strawman problems?

Rod Scurry, Steve Howe, Eric Show, and LaMarr Hoyt.

Hoyt died? How the hell'd I miss that? (I knew about the other 3.)

*continues reading thread*

Uh, sorry. Retraction noted.

This is not the war on drugs. There are no new steroid laws going on the books.

The war on drugs is germaine any time the personal use of a substance is controlled by the government and not an individual. Steroids are illegal substances right now, and more "steroids are evil" discussion makes legalization that much harder. To that end, I'm anti any misrepresentation of the dangers of any drug.

The issue is that steroids have particular effects which make the use and abuse of steroids positively reinforced in numerous sports, and in the interests of public health, these sports ought to regulate steroid use.

I agree that professional sports ought to regulate steroid use. There are more than enough legitimate reasons to do so without exaggerating or fabricating "extra motivation."

To sum up, in case I am unclear. I think steroids should be completely legal, and yet MLB (and other such entities) should have programs in place to regulate steroid use so as not to suffer from the issues of competition and coercion. There should be compensation in exchange for the violation of the athletes' personal privacy. The government should be keeping out of the entire discussion.

Furthermore, the extra weight placed on steroids in cases like Benoit's detracts from more important issues, such as a person's own accountability (I don't want to see a series of "steroid defenses" to horrific acts) and mental illness (pinning this on steroids makes us less likely to focus on detecting and resolving the mental problems of others).

The first makes no sense. What would be wrong with a steroid defense if it could be proven that steroids cause fits of rage and violence?

And how would understanding whether steroids contribute to mental illness prevent "detecting and resolving the mental problems" of anyone?

So, I think if people want to "get to the bottom" (pun intended) of "The Steroid Era" they need to be looking at the TOP, in addition to ranting about the evil HR hitters "sticking needles in their butts." If that makes me a "blame-shifter", so be it.


Who isn't doing that? Have you not seen articles, particularly by the saberista press, that are not dealing with front office blame. Do you not here these things on baseball tonight? Are you seeing a dearth of posts that question, who knew what and when they knew it. Have you seen any union member that does not want the organizations to fix the problem.

And in this case, do you not see discussion on the wrestling industry. Have you not read countless articles dissecting very move of Vince McMahon, including the syntax and grammar of his apology before the ECW tragedy.

There may be a slightly dispropotionate number of reporters crawling up Barry Bonds ass, but he is the biggest baseball star since Babe Ruth. You might see the same thing happen to an even larger degree if Nikki Ritchie says she liked sticking steroids in the ass of Paris Hilton, and she isn't even a star.

As I'll repeat once more, the only thing manufactured is the straw men on the motivations of those that care about PEDS, report about PEDS, and the proporition in which they mention it. Often, its not even unique, its just talking points.

Hell, here you have advocacy that states:

(1) An overwhelming number of murder-suicides aren't influenced by steroids. That is pretty unknowable, out of the ass conjecture. What is knowable is that depression occurs in 75% of couple murder-suicides and that steroids can cause psychosis and depression. It seems pretty reasonable to investigate and discuss that point.

(2) References to the harmlessness of steroids backed up by an alleged google search on the absence of proof negating that claim. Here's another google search idea. Try those same searches here. I guarantee you everyone of those medical reports have been discussed at length on this forum, multiple times. I'll stand on everything prior on that subject.

But the big thing is that even here, where the issue has been discussed exhaustively, what you have is just post after post that just spouts a pretty unoriginal talking point. (I don't consider you one of them. There have been about 20 or so, including you, that have actually brought analysis and discussion to this subject rather than just posting some one liner they read somewhere else.)

Moreover, I do not know of any data that suggests there is any diminishment in the prescribed use of steroids. In fact, that appears to increase. What has happened is that other drug therapies are being used in conjunction, and steroids are more closely monitored as we know of there side effects.

I put the showy body steroid users alongside plastic surgery for old biddies on Park Avenue. Doctors doing plastic surgery and prescribing steroids to vain old rich guys (which happens a lot even now) should be doing much more productive things with their talents.

How arrogant of you to decide what is productive for others. Should we criminalize posting on BTF too? That would make us all more productive.

I didn't have you in mind at all, RR. I apologize for not thinking of you

Not surprising. I am the James Denton of BTF, according to the TJ Simers paradigm. My posts are "Desperate Cries for Attention."

Should we send someone over to your house?

salfino:

There are plenty of studies on the health consequences of steroids, including those linking them to depression and other mental illnesses, as well as physical issues. Here's just one of the latter, in your favorite area (bodybuilding):

Coronary calcification in body builders using anabolic steroids.Santora LJ, Marin J, Vangrow J, Minegar C, Robinson M, Mora J, Friede G.
Orange County Heart Institute and Research Center, Orange, CA 92668, USA. lsantora@cox.net

The authors measured coronary artery calcification as a means of examining the impact of anabolic steroids on the development of atherosclerotic disease in body builders using anabolic steroids over an extended period of time. Fourteen male professional body builders with no history of cardiovascular disease were evaluated for coronary artery calcium, serum lipids, left ventricular function, and exercise-induced myocardial ischemia. Seven subjects had coronary artery calcium, with a much higher than expected mean score of 98. Six of the 7 calcium scores were >90th percentile. Mean total cholesterol was 192 mg/dL, while mean high-density lipoprotein was 23 mg/dL and the mean ratio of total cholesterol to high-density lipoprotein was 8.3. Left ventricular ejection fraction ranged between 49% and 68%, with a mean of 59%. No subject had evidence of myocardial ischemia. This small group of professional body builders with a long history of steroid abuse had high levels of coronary artery calcium for age. The authors conclude that in this small pilot study there is an association between early coronary artery calcium and long-term steroid abuse.

Yeah--Wiggins and Show are dead, aren't they. Far's I'm concerned, they're the wrong members of the '84 Padres to bite it early...

Retro, I know who you mean, but Show is even more deserving on many levels.

Apropos of nothing in particular, the most interesting cause of death for a player I remember seeing play (i.e., 1980 onward) has to be Bo Diaz's.

I won't stand for your Tim Flannery bashing, retro.

Retro, I know who you mean, but Show is even more deserving on many levels.

I disagree that he's "more deserving" in a competition with the Nazi Child Molester War Criminal, though he certainly brought his death on himself.

I won't stand for your Tim Flannery bashing, retro.

Well, he DID hit the grounder that went through Durham's legs, IIRC...

Can you guys please stop taking the thread off-topic?

Sorry to inject some levity into this somber discussion.

Yeah--Wiggins and Show are dead, aren't they. Far's I'm concerned, they're the wrong members of the '84 Padres to bite it early...

I know who one guy you're thinking of. But you used the plural. Pray tell, who is the second '84 Padres you hate more than Eric Show.

Fun fact: we're a week and a half away from the 20th anniversary of the Show game.