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Monday, March 24, 2008

N.Y. Times: DiMaggio to Mantle to Williams to … Gardner? (RR)

That should read..."DiMaggio to Mantle to Shopay to Williams to ... Gardner”

Brett Gardner envisions himself as the center fielder of the future for the Yankees. About a millisecond after Gardner was asked if he could see himself starting in center for a team that has a crowded, mostly well-paid outfield, he said, “Absolutely.”

...“It’s not a knock against Melky Cabrera or Johnny Damon or whoever happens to be out there,” Gardner said. “Obviously, that’s their job now. But I know if it were my job, someone else would be behind me wanting my job, too. Ever since I got drafted, that’s been my goal.”

...Cashman compared Gardner to Juan Pierre, a .301 lifetime hitter with 389 stolen bases, with the added asset that Gardner walks a lot. In 17 games this spring, Gardner has a .455 on-base percentage, six steals in six attempts, four walks and three runs batted in. Rarely a home run hitter, he has none this spring. In his last 217 minor league games, Gardner has 97 steals in 116 tries and one lonely homer.

“He brings a speed dimension, what I like to call a pest dimension, to the game, where pitchers can never relax when he gets on base or infielders can never relax when he’s at the plate,” Girardi said. “He plays very good defense. He plays hard. We like him.”

Repoz Posted: March 24, 2008 at 09:56 AM | 52 comment(s)
  Related News: GeneralNY Yankees

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   1. aleskel Posted: March 24, 2008 at 10:11 AM (#2718321)
Brett Gardner envisions himself as the center fielder of the future for the Yankees

...

Cashman compared Gardner to Juan Pierre

please, God, no
   2. kevin Posted: March 24, 2008 at 10:16 AM (#2718329)
He brings the speed dimension.

By God he better because he sure ain't bringin' the power dimension.
   3. Cowboy Popup Posted: March 24, 2008 at 10:31 AM (#2718343)
He brings the speed dimension.

By God he better because he sure ain't bringin' the power dimension.


I find this funny coming from the president of the Jacoby Ellsbury Stalker's Union.
   4. JRJ Posted: March 24, 2008 at 10:39 AM (#2718353)
Didn't Pierre just get bumped from center field in LA to make room for an older, .220 hitter? A comparison to Pierre isn't what I would want right now.
http://sportslocker.blogspot.com/
   5. ocd ss Posted: March 24, 2008 at 10:41 AM (#2718354)
Earlier Cashman had compared Gardner to Ellsbury, but Gardner has never shown even the pop Ellsbury has. If Cashman is now comping him to Pierre, it seems like he's making an adjustment to a more accurate comp.
   6. kevin Posted: March 24, 2008 at 10:42 AM (#2718355)
Which Ellsbury?

You mean the Ellsbury who slugged over .500 in both the regular and post-season last year? That Ellsbury?
   7. The Kevin Mitchell Report Posted: March 24, 2008 at 10:46 AM (#2718360)
Does Ellsbury have any cool nicknames yet? Is The Doughboy taken?
   8. ocd ss Posted: March 24, 2008 at 10:47 AM (#2718361)
"Pink Hat Magnet?"
   9. kevin Posted: March 24, 2008 at 10:50 AM (#2718367)
The Navajo "Nihilator.
   10. Craig Calcaterra Posted: March 24, 2008 at 10:50 AM (#2718368)
You mean the Ellsbury who slugged over .500 in both the regular and post-season last year? That Ellsbury?


Well, those were 25 fabulous post season at bats (and 14 at bats against playoff teams in the regular season!), kevin, but I think he means the one that slugged under .400 in 363 AAA at bats.

Edited for more statly goodness.
   11. kevin Posted: March 24, 2008 at 10:53 AM (#2718371)
What about the AA ABs where he slugged .644, Craig?
   12. The Kevin Mitchell Report Posted: March 24, 2008 at 11:06 AM (#2718388)
The Navajo "Nihilator.


Where'd that come from?
   13. Alex_Lewis Posted: March 24, 2008 at 11:09 AM (#2718394)
Anybody else think of The Flash vs Lex Luthor when reading about this so-called speed dimension?!
   14. TVerik Posted: March 24, 2008 at 11:26 AM (#2718411)
How old is Gardner? He has to be making the comparison to Melky, who is still crazily young.

*edit*

The article says that Melky is about a year younger than Gardner. And Austin Jackson is two years younger than Melky.
   15. Craig Calcaterra Posted: March 24, 2008 at 11:27 AM (#2718412)
What about the AA ABs where he slugged .644, Craig?


How many AA pitchers will he be facing this year?

More seriously, I think it's safe to say that, while he proabably stands to slug better than .380, there isn't much to suggest other than a small sample size that he's a .500 slugger yet either. I have no idea where he's going to end up, but when in doubt, I'm inclinded to go with something closer to that which was demonstrated in a larger sample size.
   16. B. Selig Posted: March 24, 2008 at 11:27 AM (#2718413)
No one's gay for Claudell.
   17. TVerik Posted: March 24, 2008 at 11:28 AM (#2718414)
“He’s always been competitive since he was knee high to a grasshopper,” Jerry said. “If someone was eating an ice cream cone, he’d eat his faster.”

I read this part of the article too fast - I thought that last word was "father".

Damn, that's competitive.
   18. RB in NYC (Now with an Apartment!) Posted: March 24, 2008 at 11:29 AM (#2718419)
It's nice that Gardner has these aspirations--espcially since "I see myself as a 5th outfielder" doesn't make for much of a story--but I'd be shocked if he's ever more than a Bubba Crosby type.
   19. TVerik Posted: March 24, 2008 at 11:30 AM (#2718420)
"Bubby"?
   20. kevin Posted: March 24, 2008 at 11:34 AM (#2718423)
Only his closest friends are allowed to call him Bubby, TVe.
   21. Dr Love Posted: March 24, 2008 at 11:34 AM (#2718424)
What about the AA ABs where he slugged .644, Craig?


All 73 of them?
   22. TVerik Posted: March 24, 2008 at 11:35 AM (#2718425)
"Oh, please don't eat that ice cream cone."

*Sigh*

"Dad, get over here. And bring the Tobasco."
   23. Edmundo(Erstwhile Master of Diagramming Sentences) Posted: March 24, 2008 at 11:37 AM (#2718426)
Anybody else think of The Flash vs Lex Luthor when reading about this so-called speed dimension?!

No, but I did think of Mr. Mxyzptlk as part of the so-called "pest dimension"

Bubby Crosby type
Bubba's Jewish Grandmother must have been wicked fast in her youth
   24. Cowboy Popup Posted: March 24, 2008 at 11:37 AM (#2718427)
but I'd be shocked if he's ever more than a Bubby Crosby type.

I don't know, the Juan Pierre comp seems reasonable and he would have been an excellent 4th OFer during part of his career, which would make him better than Crosby. True, Pierre got to the bigs earlier, but he sucked really hard while he was up. If Gardner can translate most of his on-base percentage to the bigs (becoming say, a .300/.350/.350 hitter or so) and he plays good defense, he's worth a roster spot.

Edit: There's also a Bpro article that suggests Gardner may be excellent at bunting for basehits, but there isn't enough evidence to be certain. If he can do it consistently, it could help inflate his average.
   25. RB in NYC (Now with an Apartment!) Posted: March 24, 2008 at 11:40 AM (#2718431)
"Bubby"?
Bubby Crosby is, of course, what happens when you mix the DNA of Bobby and Bubba Crosby. You get a good field, no-hit shortstop/CF who can't stay healthy.
   26. AROM Posted: March 24, 2008 at 11:52 AM (#2718440)
Counting all at bats, minors, majors, playoffs, here are the homers per 600 AB for Ellsbury and Gardner:

Ellsbury 7
Gardner 3

Comparing the power of these 2 is like arguing that Kevin Youkilis is faster than Jason Giambi. He is, but so what? You don't want either of them running. And neither center fielder here hits for any noticeable power.
   27. kevin Posted: March 24, 2008 at 11:57 AM (#2718444)
AROM, Ellsbury put 3 balls into the right center bullpen in his brief call-up last year. That takes power.
   28. Lassus Posted: March 24, 2008 at 12:01 PM (#2718448)
That takes power.

Or drugs. Whichever. ;-)
   29. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: March 24, 2008 at 12:02 PM (#2718450)
I hate trolls.
   30. Lassus Posted: March 24, 2008 at 12:04 PM (#2718452)
Baiting kevin is hardly troll-like behavior. I laid off Pedroia, didn't I?
   31. kevin Posted: March 24, 2008 at 12:04 PM (#2718453)
So, when did this self-loathing pattern begin, BLB?

Let's first go back to your childhood...
   32. Edmundo(Erstwhile Master of Diagramming Sentences) Posted: March 24, 2008 at 12:05 PM (#2718455)
I hate trolls.
Okay, I apologize, no more Mr. Mxyzptlk posts.
   33. Lassus Posted: March 24, 2008 at 12:07 PM (#2718457)
Anybody else think of The Flash vs Lex Luthor when reading about this so-called speed dimension?

No, but I had some flashbacks to Webster Hall circa 1993.
   34. Gromit Posted: March 24, 2008 at 12:42 PM (#2718498)
Cashman compared Gardner to Juan Pierre, a .301 lifetime hitter with 389 stolen bases

...Gardner then punched Cashman in the face.
   35. Smiling Joe Hesketh Posted: March 24, 2008 at 12:48 PM (#2718504)
AROM, Ellsbury put 3 balls into the right center bullpen in his brief call-up last year. That takes power.

I'm a Sox fan kevin but this is just crazy. Ellsbury had exactly 10 home runs in 1017 minor league at-bats over 4 seasons. Christ, he had only 44 doubles in that time. His ML slugging was .425. Stop with the SSS arguments. He has very little power to speak of, which is fine because that's not his game anyway.
   36. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: March 24, 2008 at 12:51 PM (#2718507)
Gardner's a perfectly nice little organizational prospect. He could well luck into a career as a starting CF, and has a good chance at a succession of 5th OF jobs.

It does nobody any favors to compare him to Ellsbury. Ellsbury's one of the top 10-20 prospects in baseball, while Gardner's one of the top 10-20 prospects in the Yankee organization. No one who follows prospects considers them to be similar talents.
   37. kevin Posted: March 24, 2008 at 01:05 PM (#2718525)
I'm a Sox fan kevin but this is just crazy.


That's what they said last year about what I said about Pedroia.
   38. chris p Posted: March 24, 2008 at 01:08 PM (#2718527)
i'm really tired of the discussions about ellsbury's power. at this point, i'm just going to go with an estimate of "somewhere between juan pierre and ryan howard" and leave it at that.
   39. Rich Posted: March 24, 2008 at 01:18 PM (#2718541)
For someone who has demonstrated <0 power, he has received incredible press coverage this spring.

At this point, he's projects as a 4th OFer.
   40. Smiling Joe Hesketh Posted: March 24, 2008 at 01:34 PM (#2718557)
That's what they said last year about what I said about Pedroia.

Pedroia had a long track record of hitting very well in the minors. Reasonable people knew he's get untracked at some point after his rough start.

Ellsbury's got a long track record of hitting for no power in the minors. Different situation.
   41. bibigon Posted: March 24, 2008 at 01:41 PM (#2718568)
He has very little power to speak of, which is fine because that's not his game anyway.


What exactly does this mean? We all agree that if Ellsbury could hit 15-20 HRs, he'd be a drastically better player, right?
   42. Ziggy Posted: March 24, 2008 at 01:48 PM (#2718575)
Big Cabrera deal: <a href> http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3307289 </a>
   43. Ziggy Posted: March 24, 2008 at 01:49 PM (#2718578)
140M for 7 years, after this one. (Total 153.3/8)
   44. AROM Posted: March 24, 2008 at 01:57 PM (#2718589)
OK Kevin, if Ellsbury has such great power, how many homers is he going to hit this year?

I'm not asking for an exact number, but what's his over/under?
   45. JPWF13 Posted: March 24, 2008 at 02:07 PM (#2718597)
Cashman compared Gardner to Juan Pierre, a .301 lifetime hitter with 389 stolen bases, with the added asset that Gardner walks a lot


Juan Pierre + a whole lot of walks = Brett Butler

However, to me, Gardner looks like Jason Tyner... maybe a little better than Jason- in the Minors- but that added value is all walks, which maybe a little hard to come by in the majors with no pwoer.
   46. ocd ss Posted: March 24, 2008 at 02:08 PM (#2718598)
I'm not asking for an exact number, but what's his over/under?


I'll take the under.
   47. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: March 24, 2008 at 02:10 PM (#2718600)
I'll take the under.

Kevin's, sure...but AROM's?
   48. chris p Posted: March 24, 2008 at 03:13 PM (#2718698)
I'm not asking for an exact number, but what's his over/under?

i'm going to say 9. that'll get him to 12 for his career ... which will match juan pierre's career total.
   49. Yankee_Redneck (was ReggieVision) Posted: March 24, 2008 at 05:39 PM (#2718864)
Juan Pierre + a whole lot of walks = Brett Butler


I'd take that in a jiffy. I think Gardner is a good bit faster than Butler ever was but if he can match Butler's defensive and on-base contributions he'd be a very nice ballplayer to have manning center field.
   50. JPWF13 Posted: March 24, 2008 at 05:55 PM (#2718870)
I'd take that in a jiffy.


So would I, but alas I don't think that's Gardner, that the organization's puff piece review of Gardner,

imho Garner = Tyner...
   51. Yankee_Redneck (was ReggieVision) Posted: March 24, 2008 at 06:24 PM (#2718886)
Well I can't say I've seen too much of Tyner in action, and even less when he was a speedy youngster with the Mets. My recollect is that Gardner really is a good bit quicker though; in fact, I'd be willing to bet a Coke that there aren't more than 10 major leaguers who could beat Gardner running from first-to-third, and he covers an enormous amount of area in center field. I think that would be the factor that will make Gardner a good deal better that Tyner when we compare them down the road.

Having said that, I doubt Gardner has much of a future in pinstripes; Austin Jackson is clearly the team's blue-chip hopeful to man center field starting around 2010 or so. Gardner does make an ideal 4th outfielder though, and I think he will be good enough to start for many teams if Jackson's progress makes him expendable.
   52. JPWF13 Posted: March 24, 2008 at 07:00 PM (#2718911)
My recollect is that Gardner really is a good bit quicker though; in fact, I'd be willing to bet a Coke that there aren't more than 10 major leaguers who could beat Gardner running from first-to-third, and he covers an enormous amount of area in center field. I


All Gardner's speed on the bases isn't going to do him much good if he doesn't get on base enough to put that speed to good use.
He hit .281/.369/.378 between AA and AAA last year- just off hand that projects to what, .260/.330/.325 in the majors? If he's a great defensive OF then maybe he's an adequate 4th/5th OF

that's what I meant by the Tyner comparison.

guys who can hit 281/.369/.378 in the MLB are quite a bit harder to come by (Butler was at .290/ .377/.376 BTW)
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