I agree with the boss. Joba is the 2nd best pitcher on this club, after Rivera. Joba needs to start, this one inning act is mostly a novelty. Somebody needs to get some balls and put Joba in the rotation now.

Again, what qualifications does this man have to be making baseball decisions? Where was he for the past 45 years? I love the Hank Steinbrenner era because I can easily see him running the team into the ground...maybe that's just wishful thinking but it's a much better possibility under him than Cashman.

“There is no question about it, you don’t have a guy with a 100-mile-per-hour fastball and keep him as a setup guy. You just don’t do that. You have to be an idiot to do that.”

Plus

“The starting rotation is not what I would have chosen at the beginning of the year, but that is not a big news flash to anyone,” Steinbrenner said.

=

He just called Cashman an idiot.

I love Steinbrenner. This is like a Greek tragedy unfolding before our eyes. I hope he starts dictating trades during deadline season.

Again, what qualifications does this man have to be making baseball decisions?

I think being the owner of the Yankees qualifies him to make decisions on how his business spends money and allocates resources.

“There is no question about it, you don’t have a guy with a 100-mile-per-hour fastball and keep him as a setup guy. You just don’t do that. You have to be an idiot to do that.”

Maybe they should put Farnsworth in the rotation too.

I think being the owner of the Yankees qualifies him to make decisions on how his business spends money and allocates resources.

Ummm does that make him capable of making decisions without question? Yes. He can do whatever he wants. I'm not really questioning that, am I.

Qualified in the sense that he's experienced enough to make intelligent decisions? Of course: with all the experience he's had over the years guiding the Yanks, he's got more than enough time put in to basically call out a lifetime baseball guy with a long, long track record of success. Oh...wait, nevermind. I guess getting all those horse races really prepared him for determining day-to-day team functioning.

I own my car. I can choose whatever I want to do with it, but I'm going to leave that to someone who actually knows about cars.

yeah, yeah, he's a blowhard dumbass, but the fact is Joba needs to be in the rotation--it will cause Susan Waldman to experience a number of lonely uncertain 8th innings, but this is the price we must pay

my read is that Hank knows this is happening anyway and is just the sort of media darling who wants to be on the record so he can get credit for his fearless leadership...

I don't think he was calling Cashman an idiot. Joba is in the pen to control his innings, not because Cashman believes he should be there long term. I think he was calling all of the NY baseball writers idiots, who write daily columns about the importance of the 8th inning and how Joba was "made for the pen".

I usually hate it when I see owners pulling crap like this, forcing their way into every decision and disrespect good baseball people but when I think about it maybe I would be like this as an owner.
I wouldn't think that I was being the nicest guy or anything but how many of us have said "Gosh, I wish I could make [Manager] bench [Hacky McSlaphitter] and give young [Homer O'Baseonballs] a chance?"
I think if you are a passionate fan who happens to get to own a team the temptation would be high

I think being the owner of the Yankees qualifies him to make decisions on how his business spends money and allocates resources.

Sure, Hank is qualified to be making baseball decisions because he owns the team... the way someone is "qualified" to captain a boat if they own the boat... doesnt mean theyre not going to run it into a reef because they havent the slightest ******* clue what theyre doing.

Meanwhile those jerks on that boat from Boston are falling down laughing watching it happen.


Seriously, who can read that comment about 100mph fastballs and not think "What a clown"?

No Joba in the all-important-all defining 8th inning? This is enough to make Francesspool grab a fourth chicken parm hero out of his fridge-a-dare-me!

AND a taboo regular Coke!

Wait, what happened to the other 2/3rd of the holy trinity, Hughes and Kennedy? Not good any more? And what happens if Joba's 100 mph fastball doesn't translate into dominance in the rotation?

AND a taboo regular Coke!

Oh no, not the Coke! It's like Sodom and Gomorrah, all over again.

There's nothing wrong with Hughes and Kennedy. They're more valuable than Johan Santana PLUS they each project to be at least average.

Ummm does that make him capable of making decisions without question? Yes. He can do whatever he wants. I'm not really questioning that, am I.
---------------
Qualified in the sense that he's experienced enough to make intelligent decisions? Of course: with all the experience he's had over the years guiding the Yanks, he's got more than enough time put in to basically call out a lifetime baseball guy with a long, long track record of success. Oh...wait, nevermind. I guess getting all those horse races really prepared him for determining day-to-day team functioning.

Well you didn't exactly articulate that point very well the first time.

You really have not followed the Yankees of the past 30 years, have you? "George" Family is as much responsible for the World Championships as anyone. You really do not know which moves George made or Cashman made.

I can bet you this, Joba will never sniff the HOF as a set-up guy. Why is that? Because he will be moved at some point. Either to closer or starter. Obviously it doesn't take a genius to know this. Even the "new" boss knows this. You know this. In fact, if you go back and read the comments of the boss, you will see that Cashman and the boss are in agreement at this point in time.

So you tell me what exactly it is you are defending or questioning? When GMs get fired it is by the Owner, you tell me that they are not qualified to make that decision? the boss can see the Yankees rotation is a joke. If Cashman can't, maybe he isn't qualified to give a career day talk at a local grade school.

I own my car. I can choose whatever I want to do with it, but I'm going to leave that to someone who actually knows about cars.

This analogy plays into my wheelhouse.

Hank: "Hey Brian, my car needs new tires, I'm not getting traction early in the curve."

Cashman: "Yes sir. Which brand tires do you want me to put into the rotation?"

Hank: "That new brand JOBA. I hear they can deal at 100 MPH."

Cashman: "Yes sir. I'll make the change, it will be 20 minutes."
------
Maybe Cashman can pump gas too?

Maybe Cashman can pump gas too?

JOBA does that as well.

He's not going to be right much, I wouldn't bet, but I think he's right about this. Come up with a phantom injury and DL him at the beginning of August, once the playoff spot is in the bag. Otherwise, there might not be one.

I'm so glad that a Steinbrenner is again making the big decisions, like the glory years of the 1980s!

the boss can see the Yankees rotation is a joke. If Cashman can't, maybe he isn't qualified to give a career day talk at a local grade school.

In my imagination, when he gives that career day, a certain janitor watches with a tear in his eye, cradling a mop in crippled remnants of a once 100 mile an hour throwing arm, with a name tag reading only "Joba".

Well you didn't exactly articulate that point very well the first time.

I know the purpose of Baseball Think Factory is to be a dick about details, but I have to say, the guy's intent was pretty clear from the get-go and attacking him about it just seems a little silly.

#21 Probably accurate.

In my imagination, when he gives that career day, a certain janitor watches with a tear in his eye, cradling a mop in crippled remnants of a once 100 mile an hour throwing arm, with a name tag reading only "Joba".

This is top notch. I can clearly envision this.

I think being the owner of the Yankees qualifies him to make decisions on how his business spends money and allocates resources.

You're right. It's worked out so well for the Orioles, why not the Yankees?

"Hands-on Owner" = winning team.

"Meddling Owner" = losing team.

That being said, the Braves didn't win till Ted Turner stopped making baseball decisions. The Yankees didn't become a juggernaut until George was suspended (the Yanks have more leeway than anyone else due to their ability to paper over mistakes with money), and the O's didn't have a chance until the owner turned the team over to a baseball guy.

As a non-Yankee fan, I sure like Hank Steinbrenner making baseball decisions more than I do Brian Cashman.

Come up with a phantom injury and DL him at the beginning of August, once the playoff spot is in the bag.

All well and good in theory, except playoff spots are generally not "in the bag" until the last week or two of September. So, "Come up with a phantom injury and DL him at the end of September, once the playoff spot is in the bag, and have him unavailable for the first two rounds of the playoffs."

Let's see:

Yanks have a rejuvenated, meddling owner. Check.
Toronto's attacking players on own team. Check.

... now, if we can just get Boston to act like most of its good hitters are old!

Oh, this is going to be good.

Honestly, I'm unconvinced this really has much to do with Joba Chamberlain. I'm more inclined to think this is about:

1. Hankenstein trying reeeeeeeeal hard to act like his dad; and
2. Making sure Cashman is still aware that he's fired if the Yankees don't make the playoffs.

But then, I also have always kind of assumed Cashman's standing in the organization isn't as bad as we the commoners are led to believe by the newspaper headlines, or he would have resigned in disgust long ago and had a better job lined up in about .09 seconds.

I think the Hank narrative needs some alteration.

What made George Steinbrenner a bad GM was that he had a poor understanding of baseball. He would get frustrated with developing players, even though player development is by far the best way to build a baseball team. He would throw money at free agents without having a good theory of player value on which to base those decisions.

Hank Steinbrenner seems to have learned baseball from people who know their #### about baseball. He understands player development. He understands the relative value of a set-up reliever and a starting pitcher. I'll bet he gets OBP and team defense and all that.

Rather, Hank seems like an emotionally imbalanced BTF poster put in charge of a ballclub. It's a very new situation, compared to his father. I tend to think that he badly needs to pull back and let Cashman be in charge because there's a huge gap between understanding baseball pretty well and running a baseball team. If Hank's actually as in charge as he appears to be, I doubt it will end well.

One could also reasonably suggest that Hank and Cashman have a better relationship than is reported, and that Hank and Cashman are on the same page. We don't have nearly enough good information to know. Then whatever, it'll probably all work out for the Yankees, and Hank will continue to be entertainingly obnoxious without portending major issues.

I read Hank's comments exactly as they are stated - idiots for thinking Joba should stay in the bullpen and last year's decision to put Joba in the pen was a panic move and now the team is trying to make-up for that decision. The undercurrent here could be the success Johan Santana is having and the crappy starts of Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy. The acting owner wanted to deal those two and others for Johan and, against his better judgment, was talked out of it by Cashman and his li'l bro.

Hank Steinbrenner seems to have learned baseball from people who know their #### about baseball. He understands player development. He understands the relative value of a set-up reliever and a starting pitcher. I'll bet he gets OBP and team defense and all that.

Rather, Hank seems like an emotionally imbalanced BTF poster put in charge of a ballclub. It's a very new situation, compared to his father. I tend to think that he badly needs to pull back and let Cashman be in charge because there's a huge gap between understanding baseball pretty well and running a baseball team. If Hank's actually as in charge as he appears to be, I doubt it will end well.

Unfortunately, I tend to agree with both of these statements. If you get past the bluster and douchey posturing, most of what Hank says is defensible in baseball terms. Joba almost certainly is more valuable as a starter, assuming he can hack it, and they'll never know unless they try. But if you're a Yankee fan, you have to worry a little about Hank's emotional volatility. I know I do.

No Joba in the all-important-all defining 8th inning? This is enough to make Francesspool grab a fourth chicken parm hero out of his fridge-a-dare-me!

AND a taboo regular Coke!

He has backup parms for the backup parms just for days like this.

Would the Yankees have to send Joba down to Columbus to get him stretched out before moving him into the rotation, or is the feeling he could step in right now and throw 5-6 innings or 75+ pitches?

But if you're a Yankee fan, you have to worry a little about Hank's emotional volatility. I know I do.

The potential is there, certainly, but the bluster doesn't phase me. When he starts advocating for stupid things, then I'll worry.

Would the Yankees have to send Joba down to Columbus to get him stretched out before moving him into the rotation, or is the feeling he could step in right now and throw 5-6 innings or 75+ pitches?

He was starting in Florida three weeks ago. I'm pretty sure he could give you 70-80 pitches now, and be up to 100 in 2-3 starts. You've got Mussina or Kennedy to be a long man.

This pronouncement marks the official end of the late Yankee dynasty, and chroniclers of the decline will note the same.(**)

(**) What an ########.

Guy’s always good for a quote or two or three.

Appropriate, because he is le douche.

Would the Yankees have to send Joba down to Columbus

Minor note, but Columbus is now the Nationals' AAA affiliate. Pretty sure Scranton Wilkes-Barre took that spot for the Bombers.

Pretty sure Scranton Wilkes-Barre took that spot for the Bombers.

They did.

-- MWE

Meanwhile those jerks on that boat from Boston are falling down laughing watching it happen.

Yup. Provides a nice distraction from the struggles of our own young pitchers. You gotta admit, it's a hell of a circus right now in the Bronx. Girardi giving Kennedy a public tongue-lashing on the mound. Farnsworth beefing about his suspension for (seeming) head-hunting. The Amazing Shrinking Giambi (to pirate a phrase). Oh, and Yammering Hank himself!

I don't get the consternation. Hasn't it always been the plan to make Joba a starter?

... I doubt it will end well.

My thoughts exactly.

With all this said, these two sentences are right there for anyone to read:

Steinbrenner said the Yankees were working on easing Chamberlain into the rotation, but he would not be specific on a timetable.

The Yankees’ brain trust wanted to limit Chamberlan’s innings by having him spend at least part of the season in the bullpen.

Where's the argument, other than perhaps the exact timing of the switch?

The only real debate I can see arising would be in the rather unlikely event that all five of the current starters begin pitching up to their wishful thinking levels. At that point, keeping Joba as a setup man might make a certain amount of sense, but otherwise not.

The question at the time of the switch is really just which starter to bump. My instinct says Mr. Glue Factory, since he's running on fumes and doesn't seem to be able to go the Moyer route, but if Hughes or Kennedy were to keep pitching the way they have, you might want to send them down in order to re-build their confidence. It's not that easy a call.

They've got to give up on Giambi. That's the more pressing issue. Release Giambi, take the $$ hit, and have someone else DH. Duncan would be better. Jeter would be better at 1b. They've got to dump Giambi. He's killing them.

Sign Bonds to DH.

you don’t have a guy with a 100-mile-per-hour fastball and keep him as a setup guy. You just don’t do that. You have to be an idiot to do that

Lou Piniella, idiot World Series winner

The question at the time of the switch is really just which starter to bump.

Mussina: 20 IP, 25 H, 3 BB, 7 K
Hughes: 16 IP, 25 H, 10 BB, 10 K
Kennedy: 14 IP, 19 H, 13 BB, 13 K

While he's not fooling anyone and is eminently hittable, Mussina is still allowing the fewest baserunners of the three. Some of that may be DIPS fodder, but H&K;are also sporting ugly K/BB ratios.

If I had a vote, which I don't, I'd go with Kennedy -- he's allowing the most baserunners per nine and a huge chunk of that is due to his walktastic tendencies. Unappetizing as the prospect is, Mussina still looks like the third-best Yankee starter right now, however ugly his future is going to be.

As an aside, is anybody worried about Ohlendorf's workload? 20 games into the season and he's on a pace for 100+ relief innings.

The question at the time of the switch is really just which starter to bump. My instinct says Mr. Glue Factory, since he's running on fumes and doesn't seem to be able to go the Moyer route,

Step one in going the Moyer route is throwing with the other arm. Moose seems to have missed that part.

Step one in going the Moyer route is throwing with the other arm. Moose seems to have missed that part.

That might be easier than the alternative of a lobotomy.

As to which starter to bump, that's something to wait on until the time comes to move Joba up. Mussina might be marginally better than the two kids right now, but that's not necessarily going to be the only factor in play. Right now we're working on incomplete information.

I don't think they'd bump Hughes from the rotation, after this winter.

If the Yankees remove Moose from the rotation (which seems likely) and put Joba in his place, they will have a very thin bullpen. I think that the move should be made despite this problem, but it is real.

If the Yankees remove Moose from the rotation (which seems likely) and put Joba in his place, they will have a very thin bullpen. I think that the move should be made despite this problem, but it is real.

Rivera, Bruney, Traber, Farnsworth, Hawkins, Ohlendorf, Abaladejo, with Ramirez in AAA doesn't seem very thin to me.

It's not lights out, but their are plenty of useful arms, plus more in the minors. Plenty of teams have made the playoffs with worse pens, like last years Yankees. We need to get past the "Torre era" thinking of 3 established guys that pitch 7,8,9 in every game with a lead, and get burned out as a result.

I don't think they'd bump Hughes from the rotation, after this winter.

How can you bump someone who's more valuable than Johan Santana?

How can you bump someone who's more valuable than Johan Santana?

While I'm generally loathe to discourage any Yankee-fan tweaking, I think you may have wrung all the juice out of that particular fruit, baudib.

a certain janitor watches with a tear in his eye, cradling a mop in crippled remnants of a once 100 mile an hour throwing arm, with a name tag reading only "Joba"

SPOILER ALERT: that's why they never reveal the guy's name on "Scrubs"

Any way to find out the winning % of teams with a lead of 3 or less runs after the 7th inning?

Any way to find out the winning % of teams with a lead of 3 or less runs after the 7th inning?

Sure, take the total number of teams that won after having a lead of 3 or less runs after the 7th inning, and divide it by the total number of teams that had a lead of 3 or less runs after the 7th inning. :)

You can also Phil's calculator or Tango's tables for an approximation.

How often does "stretching out" a reliever during the season go well? It seems like if a pitcher is conditioned to be a reliever during the offseason, once they're stretched out hthey can basically go about 5 innings max before they tire. If that's the case, Joba's still probably more valuable as a starter this year, but I'm not sure it's a total slam dunk, given the additional strain it could put on the Joba-less bullpen.

Maybe I'm just not creative enough in remembering relievers who stretched out during the season successfully.

How often does "stretching out" a reliever during the season go well?

Santana's 03 went well. I can't think of any others off the top of my head.

Edit: Pineiro's 2002 is a pretty good turnout too. He started starting in May.

I am sure this has been discussed numerous times here but is a 4.25-4.50 ERA starter more valuable than a 1.50-2.00 ERA setup man used in high leverage situations?

I am sure this has been discussed numerous times here but is a 4.25-4.50 ERA starter more valuable than a 1.50-2.00 ERA setup man used in high leverage situations?

Depends on who you ask and when you ask them. The short answer is "Maybe." The longer answer is "Just how leverage are those situations?"

Of course, the theory here is persumably that Chamberlain would be better than a 4.25-4.50 ERA starter.

Depends on who you ask and when you ask them. The short answer is "Maybe." The longer answer is "Just how leverage are those situations?"

Right. The other big question is the actual replacement level - how good are your 3/4 relievers, how good are your 5/6 starters? If the Yankees are more concerned about Hughes/Kennedy/Mussina than about Bruney/Fahhhnswuth/Hawkins, then the move makes sense, and vice versa.

I think it's obvious that Chamberlain ought to be seen as a starter longterm until he has proven he won't be a good one, but that doesn't mean he should be a starter right now or this year. Chamberlain should project for an ERA better than 4.25 down the road, but that's not necessarily the case for 2008. I thought the projection systems had him in the 3.8 range with high volatility, given the tiny samples in play.

“I want him as a starter and so does everyone else, including him, and that is what we are working toward and we need him there now,” Steinbrenner said Sunday by telephone.

“The mistake was already made last year switching him to the bullpen out of panic or whatever,” Steinbrenner said.

Hank seems to be doing his best not to let his frustrations translate into decision-making, but I think he struggles with it. I think he is panicking right now, but on the surface it doesn't look like they're doing anything different from what they'd planned at the start of the year.

What interests me is how much the 2008 season will influence his decision-making in future years. If Hughes and Kennedy continue to struggle, and Joba has a less-than-ideal transition to starterdom, does he damn the youth movement and make the splashy trades for proven veterans?

Hank seems to be doing his best not to let his frustrations translate into decision-making, but I think he struggles with it. I think he is panicking right now, but on the surface it doesn't look like they're doing anything different from what they'd planned at the start of the year.


He inherited the team and is looking more and more like Jim (Son of Cablevision) Dolan every day, what with the clueless bluster and need to portray the image of being "in charge."

He inherited the team and is looking more and more like Jim (Son of Cablevision) Dolan every day, what with the clueless bluster and need to portray the image of being "in charge."

You say this like it's a problem.

Think of the entertainment value when Cashman gets sued for sexual harassment, and the trial brings out stories of Jeter shtupping interns in his car in the players' parking lot.

Liriano's stretching out year went very well until he got injured.

How Hankenstein's backpedaling a bit, at least to the ESPN blurb a few minutes ago. Haven't seen his actual quotes today yet, but I wouldn't be shocked if Cashman walked into Uncle Hank's office with a copy of the Times, offending quotes highlighted in yellow, slammed it down onto his desk and laid down the law.

At least, that's how my imagination's eye likes to see it...

I think it's obvious that Chamberlain ought to be seen as a starter longterm until he has proven he won't be a good one, but that doesn't mean he should be a starter right now or this year. Chamberlain should project for an ERA better than 4.25 down the road, but that's not necessarily the case for 2008.

The only problem with this is if he's a reliever all year his inning limit won't be built up at all for next year.