6.5 courics. go!!!

I guess it's a sex addiction clinic rule that you have to keep a hat in your hand.

This sounds like a bad idea.

He's going on TV to tell everyone what he was doing in the hopes that his wife will appreciate the public humiliation and it will "fix his marriage?"

Suddenly his employment with the Mets make a lot more sense.

Today is really scraping the bottom of the barrel for guests.

First comment from Lauer -- I don't know whether this would be unprofessional of him -- should be to laugh at Phillips for blowing up his marriage and career over such a handsome mistress.

Or is it misteriss?

His wife, Marni, is also in therapy in Arizona, Lefkowitz said.

Well, that's just awful. What'd she do?

she had sex with Steve Phillips.

He's going on TV to tell everyone what he was doing in the hopes that his wife will appreciate the public humiliation and it will "fix his marriage?"

He probably knows his wife better than we do. Of all his actions this is one we would be dumb to judge.

Gentle Path sex addiction clinic

I know true addictions aren't funny, but something about the name of this place made me guffaw pretty loudly. I'm not even sure why.

Gentle Path boasts a higher success rate than the Treasure Trail sex addiction clinic across town.

There's a sex addiction clinic in Hattiesburg?

There's a sex addiction clinic in Hattiesburg?

It would probably be a bad idea to attend a sex addiction clinic in a major city or near a university campus, where temptation is more likely to exist.

Besides, it's the same place that cured Tiger Woods!

It would probably be a bad idea to attend a sex addiction clinic in a major city

Hattiesburg is a major city in Mississippi!

or near a university campus

The University of Southern Mississippi isn't exactly Ole Miss, I'll grant you that much. But Jimmy Buffett went there!

Is it? Shoot, it is. It's bigger than my hometown, which is the third-biggest town in my home state. Although there would not be a lot of temptation if you put a sex addiction clinic in the second-biggest town in my home state, and that's the capital.

I assumed because I had never heard of the town, it was in the middle of nowhere. Serves me right. Learn something new every day! That's why I hang out here.

Does anyone outside of the MLB world have any idea who Phillips is? I think there's going to be a lot of confused hausfraus that morning.

They had an underground nuclear test near Hattiesburg. Maybe Steve can go over the Billy Taylor trade one more time.

Is it? Shoot, it is. It's bigger than my hometown, which is the third-biggest town in my home state.

And it ain't short on historicity either - the last significant bare-knuckle championship boxing bout took place near there in 1889, between John L Sullivan and Jake Kilrain. 75 rounds of brutality under the good old London Prize Ring rules, not those sissy rules made by some guy with a French name! There's a historic landmark marker just outside Hattiesberg, and USM has a collection of photos and press clippings in their library.

Photo

I know true addictions aren't funny, but something about the name of this place made me guffaw pretty loudly. I'm not even sure why.

But, is there any consensus that "sex addiction" is a real addiction? Or, if it is, that these famous guys who claim it are really addicted, as opposed to looking for excuses?

I guess it's time to link the Steve Phillips poop thread again.

I guess it's a sex addiction clinic rule that you have to keep a hat in your hand.

It keeps the hands from being otherwise occupied.

Who in the ###### #### wants to listen to Steve Phillips talk about his sex life at 9 in the morning. (or ever, but especially then).

But, is there any consensus that "sex addiction" is a real addiction? Or, if it is, that these famous guys who claim it are really addicted, as opposed to looking for excuses?

Protip: If somebody can make money "curing" it, it's an addiction!

It would probably be a bad idea to attend a sex addiction clinic in a major city or near a university campus, where temptation is more likely to exist.


I imagine being in a clinic full of sex addicts probably doesn't help with temptation, either.

4 month vacation from all media so 1st I'm reading about this.

Steve Phillips is indeed a turd.

Gentle Path made me laugh..hope they teach the gentle art of self-abuse as an alternative to abusing other people.

How do they treat sex addiction? With chemical dependencies you are forbidden from ever partaking again. But sex? You're not going to just stop doing it. Especially if you're counting days to trying to make up with your smoking hot wife.

i guess i'm not the only person who doesn't like the word "addiction" being used for men who cheat on their wives

do these addiction clinics have female clients? or people who are in a monagamous relationship?

or is this just the old you should not have a high sex drive and need cold showers or pics of rosie odonnel nekkid or something

i guess i'm not the only person who doesn't like the word "addiction" being used for men who cheat on their wives

do these addiction clinics have female clients? or people who are in a monagamous relationship?

or is this just the old you should not have a high sex drive and need cold showers or pics of rosie odonnel nekkid or something

Definitely don't like it.

I don't know if Tiger Woods is a proper addict or just a horndog, but I do believe that sex addiction can be a real thing. If he cannot control his urges, even though he knows that he is ruining his own life and his family, then he fits many definitions of "addict."

Or he's just an ####### that thought he could get away with it and didn't give a #### about his wife's feelings, and is essentially just enjoying a little PR-friendly spa treatment.

I don't know if Tiger Woods is a proper addict or just a horndog, but I do believe that sex addiction can be a real thing. If he cannot control his urges, even though he knows that he is ruining his own life and his family, then he fits many definitions of "addict."

This is where it gets confusing. "Cannot control" in what sense? This is a guy who is renown for his discipline. Is there some chemical dependency going on here?

Absence an actual chemical dependency (i.e. an alcoholic or nicotine addict, or heroin addict has physical withdrawl when off their "drug") I don't think we should conflate the inability to resist temptation with addiction.

All of us are tempted to do immoral things, some more so than others. But if there is no actual chemical dependency, I think that's a weakness, not an addiction.

Thanks, Yankee Redneck! That's fun to know.

Addiction is a catchword for all compulsive behavior that's used to cover up horrible feelings from childhood that have never been faced.

I've been to countless bbtf anonymous meetings, but I always relapse.

Sex addiction supposedly is a real thing, or at least, there are words for it (satyriasis, nymphomania). I agree that it seems dubious but I can imagine a circumstance where someone's craving for sex gets in the way of everything else in their life, just like with other, more accepted, addictions. The question is whether the people who have checked into these clinics (Phillips, Woods, David Duchovny, etc.) actually have some sort of uncontrollable compulsion or if they are just ########## who are looking for an excuse in order to save their marriages.

All of us are tempted to do immoral things, some more so than others. But if there is no actual chemical dependency, I think that's a weakness, not an addiction.

A couple weeks ago, Deadspin ran a piece from a guy who's actually being treated at Gentle Path for porn addiction. It doesn't just sound like a problem with impulse control:

I've confessed my addiction to friends who wonder if their rubbing one out for 20 minutes a day counts, and let me tell you, you have no ####### idea how lucky you are you can do that. I sit frozen in space during a binge, watching the hours tick away in fast-forward on my monitor clock. My average all-nighter goes from 10 p.m. until dawn if I'm lucky enough to break away, cum in the sink, shower, and nap for an hour before work. But often I'll go until the last possible second without being late for my job, then spend the day consuming energy drinks and jamming Visine into my bloodshot eyes. I sometimes used to not jizz after a long session, which would leave me pissing and leaking little bits of cum for days. In my mind, if I wasn't ejaculating, it didn't really count as a binge. That's how ###### up this thing is.

The physical consequences of this are the worst. Anyone who doubts there is such a thing as sex or porn addiction should ask me why I keep bingeing even though my arm feels like it's going to fall off, my scalp tingles for days afterward, and my knee is sore from being locked in place all night. Have you ever met someone who jerked off so much it ###### up his knee? That's me, #############. The longest I ever went was 26 hours. Fittingly, it was on Yom Kippur, and I did indeed spend the day in serious devotion to my highest power, except that power featured a great deal of double-penetration. Ever jack off for 26 hours? You're talking at least three-quarters of a bottle of lube — that #### just seems to evaporate after an hour or two. I have no idea where it goes, but I always need more.

And holy ####, believe me, I've tried to stop it. I've installed filtering software, thrown away modems, canceled my pay-per-view service more times than I can count. But it never works. My current software sends a report of every site I visit to my girlfriend, but I found a way to partition my hard drive and install a new operating system, just to look at porn. I could have cured cancer by now with the same level of craftiness. I can't even tell you how many days I've wasted on this. Last year, the physical exhaustion and crippling remorse from my constant debauchery made me consider suicide more than once, and eventually my therapist suggested Gentle Path. -"Anonymous"

Absence an actual chemical dependency (i.e. an alcoholic or nicotine addict, or heroin addict has physical withdrawl when off their "drug") I don't think we should conflate the inability to resist temptation with addiction.

Well, I don't really know much about the topic. All I can really say is that there are thousands of doctors that disagree with you. (And probably thousands that do agree)

But if there is no actual chemical dependency, I think that's a weakness, not an addiction.

What about people with more curious addictions: gambling or shopping or hoarding? People have utterly demolished their own lives by being slaves to such impulses. I don't think that's just an issue of insufficient will power.

Absence an actual chemical dependency (i.e. an alcoholic or nicotine addict, or heroin addict has physical withdrawl when off their "drug") I don't think we should conflate the inability to resist temptation with addiction.

You seem to be assuming that addiction is caused by a desire to avoid the effects of withdrawal rather than really, really wanting the feeling gotten from whatever activity one is addicted to.

What about people with more curious addictions: gambling or shopping or hoarding? People have utterly demolished their own lives by being slaves to such impulses. I don't think that's just an issue of insufficient will power.

I'd imagine there are chemical imbalances in their brains. That could be a real addiction.

And I'm not saying someone couldn't be addicting to sex, or porn, or shop-lifting. I'm saying that if the addiction is real, there should be some physiological evidence.

I'm also saying that a bunch of people are are just drunks, not alcoholics, and a bunch of these guys are just horndogs, not sex-addicts.

I'm also saying that a bunch of people are are just drunks, not alcoholics, and a bunch of these guys are just horndogs, not sex-addicts.

Agreed.

Moralism is just another cover for what's going on..at least take a step up to intellectualism..

no surprise that an alpha male like woods is going to have a string of women..

but it should be even less of a surprise that a boy programmed from birth to be the worlds greatest golfer would subconsciously seek to blow all that up sooner or later..

the real self which is fundamentally the body and it's needs will have its say.

I had no idea there were some many Psychology PhDs and M.D.s on BBTF. If you can't understand it, then it must be fake.

Absence an actual chemical dependency (i.e. an alcoholic or nicotine addict, or heroin addict has physical withdrawl when off their "drug") I don't think we should conflate the inability to resist temptation with addiction.

Serotonin is a chemical, and gambling addicts (among others) perfectly fit your description.

The inability to resist the temptation to do something even when it is destroying your life is a nearly perfect description for addiction.

A couple weeks ago, Deadspin ran a piece from a guy who's actually being treated at Gentle Path for porn addiction. It doesn't just sound like a problem with impulse control:

Look, I don't dispute that this can quickly become a convenient catchall for guys who are just too embarrassed to admit they like ****ing outside of marriage or whatever.

But sex addiction is real. That Deadspin article is dead on. I know because I am a sex addict - it takes other forms - it's not just "he likes to stick his d*ck in other women". It could also be wacking it to internet porn, it could be sex, it could be some combination thereof

I am an otherwise disciplined professional who is considered to be an elite performer within my company. I can say "no" to alcohol and food, and I don't have any desire to do drugs. But I simply have no capability whatsoever to deny myself sex - be it with someone else or just to porn.

Even when I'm in relationships, I can't get enough s*x - and I'm always strictly monogomous. Whether I am in a relationship or not, I'm spending ridiculously unhealthy amounts of time glued to my computer monitor downloading porn. I've tried everything - deleting it, blocking it, changing all the passwords, whatever. A week later I'm right back where I started. It happens at work, at home, at friends houses, at family's houses. In an attempt to shame myself of it, I've told virtually every family member and every close friend.

I've been this way for 20 years of a 30 year life. I hid it for the first 15 years. 5 years ago I came clean with myself - that after having charged around $30k in porn to my credit card over the years - I realized I had a massive ******* problem. I battled it myself for 4 years before realizing I wasn't making a dent in my habit.

I started treatment a year ago. While it has vastly improved my quality of life, I'm at best a "functioning addict" - a term often used among drug addicts, and one that probably involves a bit of denial. Because it absolutely does impact my life. Not for the better.

It's the same cycle of any other form of addiction - drugs or alcohol or anything else. Consume massive quantities of porn, feel like the most horrible human being on earth, delete it all and tell myself it's never coming back, feel great about it for 1-4 days, tell myself that I can obviously handle "just a little bit", and then disppear for an unspecified time while the cycle repeates.

Every day, every week, every month, I tell myself "this is it, this is when I quit". The longest I have gone in the last 20 years without viewing pornography is 19 days. I've done that exactly twice.

All who claim to have it may not actually suffer from it, but that does not mean that it is not real, and that there aren't people whose lives are not touched by it.

The inability to resist the temptation to do something even when it is destroying your life is a nearly perfect description for addiction.

Or what Jeff K said.

Further I add that I do not blame the pornography for my behavior. Porn is not a bad thing - hell I think it's a good thing - and obviously millions in the world can enjoy it responsibly. I can not.

I don't blame mommy, I don't blame daddy, I don't blame society, I don't blame some weird thing or another that may or may not have happened in my youth. I don't blame God or a lack of God. I blame myself for not being in control. It doesn't change the score.

You must wear girls out pretty quick.

I had no idea there were some many Psychology PhDs and M.D.s on BBTF. If you can't understand it, then it must be fake.

I don't remember seeing Mr. High Standards's thoughts on Tiger and sex addiction. I hope he'll come by.

that after having charged around $30k in porn to my credit card over the years

This is the part I don't understand. An average 15 year old boy could get you several gigs of FREE porn in a couple hours of surfing. After having read several testimonials like this, I feel like starting up a porn procurement service where I could provide discounted porn to sex addicts at a fraction of market price.

Or what Jeff K said.

By the way, this is just about the funniest thing I've read here, because of the implication that Jeff K had also just posted a very long and extremely candid sex addiction confession.

And thank you for being so open, Mr Bouton's Greenie Fetish.

Addiction is a catchword for all compulsive behavior that's used to cover up horrible feelings from childhood that have never been faced.

I've been to countless bbtf anonymous meetings, but I always relapse.

i'm climbing out of my basement if its the last thing i do.

And thank you for being so open, Mr Bouton's Greenie Fetish

.

Yeah.

I feel like starting up a porn procurement service where I could provide discounted porn to sex addicts at a fraction of market price.

www.businesswithpleasure.com

The inability to resist the temptation to do something even when it is destroying your life is a nearly perfect description for addiction.

Sure, and I can see a case like Mr. Bouton's being a real addiction. I've heard and can believe that porn can be highly addictive, and psychology damaging, particularly in one's ability to have real relationships.

But, in the Tiger Woods case, there's no indication that his string of bimbos was "destroying his life".

I'm sure if his wife never found out, or was OK with it, he'd be happy banging his way through half the party girls and cocktail waitresses in the USA. Or, if he jest accepted getting divorced, he could continue on his merry way.

This seems much more like a man not wanting to give up his vice.

The inability to resist the temptation to do something even when it is destroying your life is a nearly perfect description for addiction.

I think this is a perfectly apt description, and my understanding is that it is fairly close to the clinical definition of addiction. But this statement is tricky when applied to Tiger Woods. Of course, from my position it is hard to evaluate -- but all of the negative consequences for Woods only came after he was caught. The thing that was presumably destroying his life (as far as I can tell) was not the sex, but the bad publicity when he got caught cheating.

And if what Woods is doing is just a PR move then it is particularly harmful, because it trivializes our view of sex addiction, making it not appear to be a legitimate condition. This can't be helpful to people who actually suffer from the real thing.

I am pretty accepting of broadly defining many harmful compulsive behaviors as addictions. If treating them as addictions helps the person suffering improve their life, then I am all for it. Compulsive gambling, spending, sex, eating -- all of these things do serious harm and can apparently be faced using some of the same methods that are used with alcoholics and drug addicts.

By the way, this is just about the funniest thing I've read here, because of the implication that Jeff K had also just posted a very long and extremely candid sex addiction confession.

I was going to, but my therapist says that for a confession to be truly helpful I can't leave anything out, and I decided against it. Some of y'alls mothers are into some very freaky stuff.

But, in the Tiger Woods case, there's no indication that his string of bimbos was "destroying his life".

I'm not interested in doing so, but I think someone could easily make a reasonable case to the contrary on this. Regardless, I don't think abusing/misappropriating the diagnosis for PR purposes by a celebrity should bring any downside to the legitimate sufferers and therapists. It's a double-edged sword for the people in the field. Let's say Tiger shows up to check himself in:

1) They could turn him down quietly. Except that won't help the "believability" of the condition for the public, because no one will know.
2) They could turn him away publicly. Disregarding HIPAA, that might help with the public, but will almost certainly cause untold numbers of actual sufferers to not seek help.

Besides, how are they supposed to know whether he's legit before he starts therapy with them? Even if the public story doesn't sound like much, what if he goes into sessions there and starts talking about having unprotected quickies with truckstop hookers behind Wal-Mart up to three times a night? There's no upside to turning him away, and moreover, even if he *is* just faking it, the downside of that perception to the public is probably outweighed by the upside provided by increased coverage of the condition itself and the resultant uptick in sufferers seeking help.

but all of the negative consequences for Woods only came after he was caught.

we don't know that for sure. the incident in the driveway with the golf club could have been the first public negative consequence. so what i'm suggesting is that things could have been getting unpleasant in woods life for a while now. no one's talking.

I blame myself for not being in control.

if you are willing to let all those ######## off the hook, why not yourself as well?

believe me, I know where you are coming from - I've done (and still do) a lot of 'addictive' behaviors that damage me, including porn, but I'm 'lucky' my main things always been mental masturbation. (see #32)

it's not like I can offer a solution..working thru denial of just how ###### up you are, and how little of it is your fault, is a lifetimes work, and when the root cause is #### that was done to you young enough to lock it into your hardwiring..well, it sucks.

but I do know that shaming/ blaming only keeps you locked into a compulsion/addiction, re-inforces denial, and blocks awareness.

good luck, friend

mr bouton GF,

thank you for posting what you did. i had never heard of anything like that - only heard of sex addiction stuff from cheating HUSBANDS

i've never heard of any famous FEMALE being admitted for sex addiction

- i guess that sex would only be an addiction if it caused some sort of problem in your life. so if woods wasn't married and was an out of the closet male nympho, it wouldn't be an addiction.

- and if mr boutonGF was with a female with the same sex drive, then there wouldn't be a problem? and i know a couple of females who, um, have, big appetites, you feelin me here

- truth is also that i guess i don't get the porn interest. i mean, it isn't that i personally couldn't, um, find, say, a pic of bradley awesomeness wearing nothing but a surfboard, um, something that just might could, um, absorb my attention, but certainly not no 26 hours. not even 26 minutes. even when i was single and had time, uh, on my hands. but watching nekkid male strangers eff some plastic doll looking chick with fake boobs is like - yawn. really i start wondering about all the diseases they prolly got

i wonder if the porn addiction - how do i put this - but it sounds kind of like obsessive/compulsive like people who gotta wash their hands over and over even if they actually wear the skin off - and i wonder if it can be treated with the same kind of medicine

with woods again, and this applies to a lot of athletes -

did he ever have a choice about becoming the worlds best golfer, and all that's followed?

just because his life looks incredibly blessed from the outside doesn't mean it hasn't been hell on the inside.

I've never liked woods because he's always seemed a robot to me, so him ####### up makes me sympathetic.


One more robot learns to be
Something more than a machine

alex darling boy,

how wonderful to see you again!!!! and hope things are going well 4 you.

as for tiger - well, yeah, he DID have a choice, at least i think so. he got admitted to a good college - he could have gotten a degree in something he wanted, played a tournament or 2 to pay of his debts (if he had any) and quit and then gone and done what he wanted

i seriously doubt that he could have got to be The World's Best Golfer if it was something he really didn't like. or if he was the kind of person who doesn't really like to compete at all. or if he was the kind of person who felt uncomfortable having to be a "world's best"

there's all KINDS of baseball players with barry lamar class talent who just don't care enough to do anything with it. some don't care enough to make it out of college, some don't make it out of the low minors - because they have to WANT to be barry lamar/uncle albert - including the drive that goes along with it

we don't know that for sure. the incident in the driveway with the golf club could have been the first public negative consequence. so what i'm suggesting is that things could have been getting unpleasant in woods life for a while now. no one's talking.

This is possible, which is why I was trying to qualify and hedge my statements. I was assuming a particular way in which things occurred, which may or may not be accurate. Of course, an alternate account also will need to assume certain things. We can't really discuss much other than the most basic facts of the matter without making some assumptions.

I also think that treatment is potentially useful for Woods if at this point he is actually powerless to stop picking up women and wishes to continue his marriage.

Regardless, I don't think abusing/misappropriating the diagnosis for PR purposes by a celebrity should bring any downside to the legitimate sufferers and therapists.

If it leads to a greater number of people doubting the legitimacy of the condition, it can be potentially harmful. If people just view it as a "cop out" for cheating husbands -- I can't see how that actually leads to more people with legitimate problems getting treatment. Some of these people needing help will be cheating husbands.

What about someone who engages in some life harming behavior while drinking too much? There is a difference between someone who drinks too much and then gets into trouble, and someone who has a compulsion to drink too much, which leads to trouble. The same issue applies to Woods. Is this a compulsive behavior that he is dealing with, or is he just a cheating husband? We can't really know the answer, but there is at least some public sentiment that Woods is just using this as an excuse. Given the publicly available information, that is a reasonable (but uncertain) conclusion.

i seriously doubt that he could have got to be The World's Best Golfer if it was something he really didn't like.

I agree with this. Given how well he has done, it seems unlikely that he secretly hates golf, or is burnt out, or something like that. He is the world's best golfer in a very large part because he worked very hard at it. He had to want it.

Now, his childhood was very likely quite unusual. I will grant you that.

An average 15 year old boy could get you several gigs...

Man, I thought that one was going somewhere else.

did he ever have a choice about becoming the worlds best golfer, and all that's followed?

Sure. He could have quit at any time. He could quit today, give all his money to charity and go work at WalMart.

Or he could quit, and go live on a island in Sweden with his family.

If I was worth several hundred million dollars, and couldn't trust myself to be on the road without cheating on my wife, I'd damn sure quit my job and go live someplace secluded with my family.

Woods never needs to be out of his wife's sight again, if that's what it takes to save his marriage.

snapper

on the other hand, it just might could be that he cares more about pub/money/image than he does about his wife

youneverknow with men like him

snapper

on the other hand, it just might could be that he cares more about pub/money/image than he does about his wife

youneverknow with men like him

That's my point. He cares more about golf/fame than his marriage.

But, it's wrong to say he can't escape the temptations and trappings of fame/success. Sure he can, he just rather not.

It's a sad fact of life, but many, many people (maybe most) don't actually care that much about their marriages when compared to other things that make them "feel good".

While he still could have quit, I think the power and influence of his father (and the memory of his father) needs to be accounted for with significant weight.

But, it's wrong to say he can't escape the temptations and trappings of fame/success. Sure he can, he just rather not.

So wait, he's an ####### for not quitting golf and moving to a private island?

This is going too far. He probably is just another rich ######## horndog who doesn't care about other people. But maybe he isn't. Maybe he has a very real addiction. We don't know.

And marriage vs profession is a false dichotomy.

where'd anybody get the idea that marriage is supposed to make you feel good?

the marriage was part of the image for him.

his dad had a golf club in his hand from birth, had him on nat'l tv at age two swinging a club.

forget addiction, he was programmed to be who he is, not so simple to give up the only life you've ever known even if the social rewards weren't so great.

the guys entire life has been scripted..and you better believe the whole tiger industry wants to get him back on script.

So wait, he's an ####### for not quitting golf and moving to a private island?

This is going too far. He probably is just another rich ######## horndog who doesn't care about other people. But maybe he isn't. Maybe he has a very real addiction. We don't know.

And marriage vs profession is a false dichotomy.

If he needs to quit golf, and stay close to home constantly, in order to save his marriage, then yes, he's an ass to not quit golf.

It's not a false dichotomy if the lifestyle his profession demands puts his marriage at risk. He doesn't need the money.

If I had to quit my job and live quietly in a remote area to save my marriage, I'd do it, and I doubt I have 1/1000th the nest egg Tiger has. If the only way I could stop cheating was to never leave my wife's sight, I'd do it.

where'd anybody get the idea that marriage is supposed to make you feel good?

the marriage was part of the image for him.

his dad had a golf club in his hand from birth, had him on nat'l tv at age two swinging a club.

forget addiction, he was programmed to be who he is, not so simple to give up the only life you've ever known even if the social rewards weren't so great.

the guys entire life has been scripted..and you better believe the whole tiger industry wants to get him back on script.

Sure, but he's free to tell the "tiger industry" to f-off.

But I agree with your larger point, his marriage is a secondary concern to him. Which makes him an ass-hole in my book.

the whole tiger industry wants to get him back on script.

Yeah, it's been a rough few years. First Siegfried (Roy?) gets mauled, then this business.

where'd anybody get the idea that marriage is supposed to make you feel good?

well ... because nowadays you don't have to stay married, so its become a bit more of an assumption in today's society that one gets married because one likes the idea.

the marriage was part of the image for him.

woods has hidden so much of his life that we really have no way of knowing how attached he is to his wife. that's a broad assumption.

his dad had a golf club in his hand from birth, had him on nat'l tv at age two swinging a club.

forget addiction, he was programmed to be who he is, not so simple to give up the only life you've ever known even if the social rewards weren't so great.

i would agree that his father had an agenda and it kinda creeps me out, but afaik he didn't beat tiger or strap the clubs to him, and withold food from him if he didn't practice etc. ... it doesn't occur to you that woods actually likes golf? he's a grown man. he could have dialed back at any point. i believe its in other areas of his life that things have gotten complicated. his money and fame have removed certain barriers to his behavior that he seems to be struggling with.

'the social rewards weren't too great'? what? dude made several hundred millions of dollars, jet set life, model for a wife, etc. ... i wouldn't mind getting crappy rewards for my labor like that. i'm not sure what you mean. do you mean now that his marriage has gone south?

If I had to quit my job and live quietly in a remote area to save my marriage, I'd do it, and I doubt I have 1/1000th the nest egg Tiger has. If the only way I could stop cheating was to never leave my wife's sight, I'd do it.

Yeah, but that attitude means you wouldn't cheat. I'm not married, but I would think that "I can't stop cheating on you" is a pretty good indicator that you shouldn't stay married.

woods has hidden so much of his life that we really have no way of knowing how attached he is to his wife. that's a broad assumption.

I don't think that speculating on emotional attachment is just a woman thing.

If he needs to quit golf, and stay close to home constantly, in order to save his marriage, then yes, he's an ass to not quit golf.

It's not a false dichotomy if the lifestyle his profession demands puts his marriage at risk. He doesn't need the money.

snapper, i can appreciate your point of view, but it's not either/or. you really don't think he can ever play golf and straighten out his life? almost every profession can put one's marriage at risk. you're right, he doesn't need the money, but maybe he needs golf.

If I had to quit my job and live quietly in a remote area to save my marriage, I'd do it,

that is admirable. i'm not trying to be snarky. if that is true, that's a great thing. don't assume its easy for everybody. strait is the gate, and all that.

mr, bouton's fetish - thanks for posting that. i never really thought about it being something that could get out of control, but obviously, it can. i appreciate your candor.

Fervent applause for Bouton's wonderfully open and educational post. Thank you.

where'd anybody get the idea that marriage is supposed to make you feel good?

the marriage was part of the image for him.

It's a mistake to claim we know what is or was going on inside Tiger's head, whether that assumption is made in criticism or defense of him.

If what you say is true, I wonder whether he told his wife that the marriage was for image purposes. Maybe she understood that, but from her reaction it doesn't seem like it.

he guys entire life has been scripted..and you better believe the whole tiger industry wants to get him back on script.


But that kind of makes the point, right? Cheating on his wife with porn stars and waitresses wasn't part of "the script", but somehow he was able to deviate from the script in that respect. If he had wanted to deviate from it by not getting married in the first place, or slacking off a bit in his game, maybe he could have.

If he needs to quit golf, and stay close to home constantly, in order to save his marriage, then yes, he's an ass to not quit golf.

We really don't know enough about his marriage to say something like this. You can say that if his profession and marriage are incompatible, he should choose one or the other. But as long as he's honest about it, choosing his profession wouldn't necessarily make him an ass in my book...at least, not an extraordinary one.

It's always tough for me to deal with the fact that otherwise good people sometimes cheat on their loved ones. But it happens. I know people who won't vote for a politician with known infidelities...I can understand where they're coming from, but the problem is (a) the chances are decent that the other guy cheated on his wife and was just better at hiding it; and (b) sometimes the cheaters are actually good politicians.

I never have before, but I will note that I now wonder if "greenie" is an actual fetish (that perhaps is covered in some thankfully obscure corner of the internet), and if so, will henceforth assume that Jim Bouton is into it.

Maybe something with peas?

tiger woods has always seemed unreal to me, a persona with no person behind it, and it's always creeped me out.
I'm sure he likes golf and all the perks that go with it. but when a life is almost completely socially scripted from such a young age, it's ultimately an empty life inside.

but what do i know, maybe I just don't find rich and famous in any way desirable.

read the original poop thread today. what a hoot.

and despite the pitfalls, who hasn't had a relationship with a co-worker? avoiding a fling is one thing, and staying away from unattractive women smart (wish I'd always followed the rule never to sleep with a woman whose underwears bigger'n yours), but the advantage is you can get a really good picture of who somebody is if you work with them long enough.

tiger woods has always seemed unreal to me, a persona with no person behind it, and it's always creeped me out.

I always relished the details that crept out. Like how Hootie and the Blowfish played at his wedding.

He always seemed like a quiet, preppy, boring dork to me. That isn't a personality that I'm attracted to, but it is a personality.

and despite the pitfalls, who hasn't had a relationship with a co-worker?

*raises hand*

I have, however, had a relationship with the ex of a good friend. We were equals when he and she were dating, they broke up, I became his boss, and I started seeing her. The Lounge knows her as Violent Girl/Kind of Crazy Chick (name changed to avoid confusion with Vince Galloro.) I regret nothing.

I became his boss, and I started seeing her.

Did you enjoy so thoroughly emasculating him?

I've got radar for crazy women..prolly cos I'm crazy myself.

*raises hand*

Me, neither. Then again, I've always worked in very male-dominated offices so there weren't many options.

My significant other and I both dated each other's roommates at some point in the past, although in both cases it only amounted to a few dates. (That's probably the reason it worked out at the beginning -- I just figured she was off limits and acted like myself around her, rather than trying too hard to make things happen.)

and despite the pitfalls, who hasn't had a relationship with a co-worker?

I work in IT.

55 people in my workplace, 38 women, a good 20 of then unmarried..
at least two dozen have come and gone in the time I worked there, and I've been propositioned at least a dozen times..big turnoff, and I believe in not getting involved at work.

but falling in love is irrational by nature.

but falling in love is irrational by nature.

Going out on a few dates with the new girl isn't.

Did you enjoy so thoroughly emasculating him?

It wasn't intentional, it wasn't planned, and once it got to 10 days or so, I took him out for a beer and leveled with him. He was okay about it at first, then let one of his idiot roommates talk him into getting upset about it. I told him I understood his being upset, and I'd only interact with him in a professional manner, but if he let the upset come into the office, I'd not hesitate to act appropriately. He moped for 2 weeks and things went back to normal.

I've confessed my addiction to friends who wonder if their rubbing one out for 20 minutes a day counts, and let me tell you, you have no ####### idea how lucky you are you can do that.

What do these guys do for the other eighteen minutes?

Drive your mother back to the corner.

Some of you guys must have some hot mothers.

i would agree that his father had an agenda and it kinda creeps me out, but afaik he didn't beat tiger or strap the clubs to him, and withold food from him if he didn't practice etc.

Clearly not a Biography fan.

and despite the pitfalls, who hasn't had a relationship with a co-worker?

*raises hand*

I was married to mrsidiom before we became co-workers. (My company bought hers.) Other than that technicality, I've never had a relationship with a co-worker.

It wasn't intentional, it wasn't planned, and once it got to 10 days or so, I took him out for a beer and leveled with him.

It's always planned to some degree, unless you tripped and your penis fell into her vagina. (By the way, that defense doesn't work well in court or with your wife/girlfriend.)

Seriously, that's a major violation of the man code. I generally don't judge people but with 6 billion people on the planet, there is no person that is that special. The fact that you were his direct supervisor is arguably irresponsible as well... it isn't clearly unethical, but it's provocative.

There's no way you were a good friend to this person. I'm not taking you off my Christmas card list or putting a hit out on you, but shame on you. He had to be a pretty miserable friend to deserve what you did to him.

As an aside, sometimes it takes a few days to realize that you're really angry, especially at a friend. I had two of my closest friends do all but gut-punch me when I was really down (for my own good, of course), and it set me back about two or three months... only a month or two into the funk did I even realize how poorly they had treated me.

Seriously, that's a major violation of the man code

Stipulated. I have never denied this.

There's no way you were a good friend to this person. He had to be a pretty miserable friend to deserve what you did to him.

Whoa, now. They had been broken up for months. While I agree that there's some wrong in what I did, it's not *that* bad. He broke up with her, months (2-3) later she came after me. I didn't date rape his sister.

I didn't expect it was the next day, but I think 2-3 months is a pretty short time.

I think it's the combination of things that bothers me: a supposedly "good" friend, your subordinate, a relatively short time passing, and not seeking approval beforehand or immediately afterward.

Add all those things together, and you create a very uncomfortable situation for a friend, in an environment where he can't get away from you. That's just not a nice thing to do to someone. It's hard enough to work for someone who is your social equal, but when they're dating your recent ex and they don't tell you for 10 days, that's especially hard.

I don't let her off the hook either.

with woods, all the explanations can fit more or less. human genetics and biology being what they are, and the rewards that go with woods social status, it be surprising if he didn't have a lot of women, married or not.

but the snl skit prolly isn't far from the truth, and living somebody elses dream your whole life is ###### up no matter how pleasant the dream.

as for jeff, I'm all for breaking codes and rules, but to live outside the law you must be honest with yourself.
not that I'm not a hypocrite on this score.

with 6 billion people on the planet, there is no person that is that special.

your mother

baseball chick (now, with NEW blog) Posted: February 05, 2010 at 03:11 PM (#3454899)

i wonder if the porn addiction - how do i put this - but it sounds kind of like obsessive/compulsive like people who gotta wash their hands over and over even if they actually wear the skin off - and i wonder if it can be treated with the same kind of medicine

WARNING - I am not a psychologist/psychiatrist, so what follows may in fact be totally misinformed or since discredited. I am also not a professional writer, so it's possible that the words that follow may not accurately express the meanings that I am attempting to convey. So with those disclaimers out of the way, here goes:

I recall doing some reading on the concept of obsessive/compulsive behavior a while back, and the general thesis seemed to be that any specific addiction was actually a manifestation of the more general addictive personality. That is, X addiction is a product of Y personality, regardless of whether X is alcohol, food, gambling, shopping, sex, drugs, or rock and roll. The basic idea seemed to be that treatment would require either:

1) a change in the personality; or
2) a change in the direction of the drive

While (1) can be effected with medication, many seemed to feel that the risk is too great, because it may destroy the whole inner person; that is, it would correct the addictive personality, but leave behind only a shell of the person (think of throwing the baby out with the bath water) and therefore should only be considered in the most extreme cases.

For that reason (2) is the more common treatment, especially among individuals who attempt to self-correct without professional assistance. Simply put, the person re-directs their drive away from the destructive X activity (drugs, alcohol, etc.) towards a more positive (or, at least, positively viewed) activity (exercise, writing, reading, business, etc.) So the drug addict becomes a jogging fanatic, the alcoholic becomes a workaholic, etc. The personality trait remains; it is simply channeled in a different direction.

All of which leads me to:

baseball chick (now, with NEW blog) Posted: February 05, 2010 at 03:28 PM (#3454908)

i seriously doubt that he could have got to be The World's Best Golfer if it was something he really didn't like. or if he was the kind of person who doesn't really like to compete at all. or if he was the kind of person who felt uncomfortable having to be a "world's best"

there's all KINDS of baseball players with barry lamar class talent who just don't care enough to do anything with it. some don't care enough to make it out of college, some don't make it out of the low minors - because they have to WANT to be barry lamar/uncle albert - including the drive that goes along with it

I believe BBC gets it fully right with regard to the inner drive that is contained within those who are the elite in their chosen field. Many scouts through the years have wished that they could see inside the youngster they were scouting (their "heart", or inner person, if you will) to see if the player had the inner drive to do everything and anything required to become the very best at their chosen sport. Many have the raw talent; few have the drive.

Now (keeping in mind my previous disclaimers and adding to them the fact that I don't know any of these individuals personally) it seems to me in my totally un-expert opinion that the personality trait that drives a Tiger Woods to be the best golfer in the world is also the same personality trait that would manifest in another addiction (in this case sex). Put another way, Tiger Woods is addicted to golf; therefore, he has an addictive personality; therefore, there is the potential for that personality to manifest itself to an addiction that is not golf. Likewise with a Pete Rose, who committed himself at an early age to becoming baseball's all-time hits leader: the personality trait that could drive him to do all that was needed to reach that goal is the same personality that could drive him to be a compulsive gambler.

Now, I want to be careful here not to overly generalize this concept. I don't mean to say that every successful individual is nothing but a drug addict in disguise. But I think it's important to understand why an individual, so successful in their chosen field, could also become entangled in such destructive behavior; and I think a key part of that reason is because the personality that fuels a drive to be among the elite in one area is the same personality that fuels the drive towards addiction in another. It all comes from the same engine that's doing the driving.

DB

I stay away from the more politically-driven threads but I think this is one of the best non-baseball threads I've read on BBTF. There's a lot of thoughtful posts and food for thought here. Special thanks to Mr. Bouton for sharing. I hope it was at least somewhat cathartic for you.

i've never heard of any famous FEMALE being admitted for sex addiction

Catherine the Great? Not that she was treated of course.

Iris Robinson (or whatever spin doctors are involved) is attempting to blame her mess (in brief, an affair with a much younger man and the giving his business a big helping hand) on "mental illness". They seem to be the ones pushing for the use of the term. They appear to want to tell the story as "good Christian woman who went crazy". Messy as the situation is, that's about as positive a spin as you can come up with. (Since the "help" mentioned above involves using her influence and her husband's to steer government business.)

Mind you, the illness is depression. Nasty to be sure, but ... doesn't really fit with the story they want to sell as best I can tell.

EDIT: A couple of the Flashman books feature women who might qualify. Honestly don't recall the names though.

more than one explanation works for the behaviors we're talking about..biological needs are primary, and social expectations and pressures lie atop those.

but what does it mean to talk about people in terms of drives and fuel and engines? that you can fix a person like you would a car?

for me, the path is toward greater consciousness and memory while respecting that we are largely moved by subconscious forces that can only really be approached through right-brained activities of image, dream and art..esp using those to explore current behavioral roots in childhood.

intellectualism has severe limits.