You wanna talk about lost art? No not bunting. Edvard Munch's The Scream. That's lost art.

Jim Gantner? That's a name that I never thought I'd hear again.

I checked out the BBRef page to see if he was any better than I remembered. My eyes immediately fell on what I thought were his career totals for OBP and SLG: .335./.401 Not too bad for a middle infielder, right?

Then I realized that those were, of course, his career highs. Oh well.

Guys like Gantner performed the way guys low in the lineup should: he put the ball in play and moved the runners over.

You're usually in that position because you don't have much worth otherwise.

Deep down it's just a yearning for a "Fan Favorire Scrappy Player Hall of Fame".
The .248 career utility player who's effort makes him look better than he was.
For example: 80s Padres = Tim Flannery
I still love the guy, but objectively he was ordinary

Hey now, let's examine the context. Jim Gantner grew up in Eden, WI which is a town of about 600 people. He attended the University of WI-Oshkosh where he led them to two berths in the NAIA World Series, and then managed to stay in the big leagues for 17 years thanks to very good defense. Nobody, and I repeat nobody, hung in and turned the double play like Gantner.

Gantner's career is testimony to hard work and resonates with the populace of the state to this day.

Should his number be retired? Probably not. But nor should his career be dismissed out of hand.

An admittedly biased but hopefully accurate summary of Gantner's baseball credentials.

it's an interesting concept that a player should have his number retired for being hyper-ordinary


A while ago, I was perusing Total Baseball to figure out who had the most average career in MLB history, i.e. the player with a lifetime Total Player Rating closest to zero

the most average was Pat Kelly (Leroy's brother) with a TPR of 0.0 over 1300 games

Gantner was +0.1 over 1800 games

It would be one thing if we were discussing the Hall, but retiring a number is a little different.

I took a peak at Win Shares for the Milwaukee Brewers' leaders. Gantner ranks fourth among Brewers all time, behind Yount, Cooper and Molitor. Only Geoff Jenkins has a chance of passing Gantner in the next five years. Gantner played his entire career in Milwaukee, played excellent defense, and was a member of their pennant winning '82 club. I don't see the harm in retiring his number, quite honestly.

I could see an argument that a franchise retiring numbers is 'between the team and its fans to decide.'
It isn't really a national honor, it's a local one.

Heck, Jungle Jim Loscutoff had his No. 18 retired by the Celtics (well I think the story is that they have a "Loscy" banner instead, as he allowed other players - like Dave Cowens, who DID retire it - to wear it after he quit). He's pretty Gantner-esque.

Harveys Wallbangers hits on the 'state pride' thing quite well. It's a foreign concept to many states, but the midwest in particular seems to have it in spades.

So I have no problem with the column, even though it's hard to defend intellectually. This isn't about win shares and OPS+, though.

You wanna talk about lost art? No not bunting. Edvard Munch's The Scream. That's lost art

Munch did several versions of this piece and I believe there is one of those hanging in a museum in Oslo. That was a copy that was previously stolen, but later recovered.

I think stealing an Edvard Munch painting is part of some fraternity ritual as Oslo Tech.

This is just the Brewers' 36th season and Gantner played in nearly half of them (17). No harm retiring his number. But they should wait until 2007 for the 25th anniversary of the 82 team.

What are the ingredients of a Harvey Wallbanger? Would any bartenders even recognized the name if I ordered one?

A Harvey Wallbanger

I'v tended bar off and on since 1990, and I've made the grand total of one, for an old guy one morning. I guess it's a decent hangover remedy.

Friend Al now they are up set about the Milwaukee club is retiring the number of some 1 Gantner I never heard of I feel like Rejus Fillbin. All though many clubs retire a number when I came up to the Sox I wanted number 19 which I had worn since T Ball. But the clubhouse guy X plained that 19 is retired and the only man who can where it is Billy Peers who was a lugey in the day and now he is upwards of 80. I told Ozzie Guillen that Peers will not be needing the number any more is it likely the Sox will want Peers for the stretch at the age of 80 and Ozzie Guillen said Keefe if you are on this roster anything can happen, he has such confidence in me Al.

I feel like this begs the question: who is the worst major league player to have his number retired?

if you're talking about lifetime performance as a player,you'd probably have to go with Rizzuto, but his number was retired because he hung around so long as an announcer as well as what he did as a player

Rizzuto or Maris

this doesn't count "tragedy" retirements, like the Astros with Don Wilson & Jim Umbricht &

Scooter was a great player. A great fielder, an MVP. James ranks him 17th all time at SS in BJNHBA.

I'd say he's better than these guys: Hal Newhouser, Mike Scott and Randy Jones.

I'm a Brewers fan and even I think Gantner was pretty bad. He was servicable and played for them for a long time, but he wasn't really helping them win and so far the Brewers have only retired the numbers of Hall Of Famers (Yount, Molitor, Aaron, Fingers). They should keep up that trend.

What's the story with the Marlins' retiring Carl Barger's number? I mean, did he have a tumor or something.

To me, the most ridiculous retirings are the guys who didn't really contribute anything to the team that retired his number. Like Hank Aaron for the Brewers--what sense does that make? Wade Boggs for the D-Rays? Casey Stengel for the Mets? Real teams don't need to do that. Gantner contributed a lot more to the Brewers than Hank Aaron did.

The most impressive # for Gantner is 1801 games played. By comparison Tim Flannery--a totally inaccurate comparison--played 972, while hitting slightly worse.

The history of the Brewers, such as it is, has Gantner all over it. 3rd most games in Brewers history, 3rd most at bats, 4th most runs, 4th most hits, 4th TB, 4th doubles, 6th RBI, 3rd stolen bases, 4th in runs created. And it goes on and on.

His 2nd most comparable player is Manny Trillo. Had Manny Trillo, like Gantner, played his entire career with a single team. The Cubs, maybe, or the Phils, I have no doubt but that a sizable contingent of local fans would be clamoring for his # to be retired (though I know that it's against the rules of some teams to retire #s of non-HOF players.)

A team honors the people who made its history. The Brewers don't have a long or storied history. Maybe they've honored too many people already. But letting in Gantner doesn't open the door to a whole wave of other Brewers' players to get #s retired. There aren't more than 4-5 guys who had the impact he did upon the Brewers, and most of those guys have already been retired.

I respect the teams that hold to the HOF standard. But if I were a Brewers fan, hell yeah I'd be happy to see Gantner honored.

Like Hank Aaron for the Brewers--what sense does that make?


well, Hank played most of his career in Milwaukee and the final 2 years with the Brewers, so I feel that it's perfectly fine to have his number retired in Milwaukee, as he's the best player that ever played in the city and he did put in some time with the current club.

But if I were a Brewers fan, hell yeah I'd be happy to see Gantner honored.

well, I'm a Brewer fan and I wouldn't be happy to see him honored. Sure, he played a long time. So what? He wasn't excellent for a long time, or ever. He was just a generic white, hustling middle infielder who they kept around so long because he was from Wisconsin. If not for him being a native, I doubt he would have played even 5-6 years with them, they would have dumped him looking for someone better.

He was just a generic white, hustling middle infielder who they kept around so long because he was from Wisconsin.

That would be good enough for me. It makes more sense than Fingers who played only 4 of his 17 years in Milwaukee. I'd even think about Cecil Cooper. Neither Gantner nor Cooper are HOF or HOM candidates, but it's a local honor.

I wouldn't recommend Bert Campaneris for the HOF but I'd like to see his number retired in Oakland. Same with Jesse Haines in St Louis. Oops.

Retiring Jim Gantner's number would duly honor the mediocrity (and worse) that is synonymous with Brewers baseball.

Post 20:

The Brewers of Gantner's era were not mediocre.

But you managed to get in your gratuitous cheap shot early on a Monday morning. How are you going to fill the rest of your week?

Very true. In Gantner's career, they won 90+ games 5 times plus had a 92 win pace in 1981, and had winning records 4 other seasons.

The Brewers of Gantner's era were not mediocre.

no, but Gantner was

Milwaukee records during Gantner's tenure: 1374-1322 (.509); I think the insult was fair. They were mediocre then - worse since.

Besides you're talking to someone who
* doesn't takes a lot of cheap shots, and
* grew up during that time rooting for the Brewers (and Braves),
so it's not like I take great relish in putting down the team.

The Dallas Mavericks retired the number of Brad Davis for being a white guy with a long mediocre career (8.2 PPG, 1.8 RPG, 4.9 APG).

The Dallas Mavericks retired the number of Brad Davis for being a white guy with a long mediocre career

Yea...but "Midnight Express" gave him that one special moment...and then with the dying young biz on top of that.

Brad Davis, oof. I will say, he had a heck of a career for an ex-CBA guy.

That would be good enough for me. It makes more sense than Fingers who played only 4 of his 17 years in Milwaukee.

True, he didn't play for them long, but he did win an MVP and a Cy for them, which I think would be another good reason to retire someone's number. Only Yount, Aaron and Fingers have won MVP's in Milwaukee. MVP's in baseball aren't the same as MVP's in the NBA (well, until Nash won) where only the greatest of the great win, but I still think that that is a fine criteria for retiring numbers.

Deep down it's just a yearning for a "Fan Favorire Scrappy Player Hall of Fame".

Did someone call my name?

I feel like this begs the question: who is the worst major league player to have his number retired?

Kent Hrbek or Randy Jones. List of retired numbers in baseball.

OK, what's the story behind the Pirates retiring Billy Meyer's number?

OK, what's the story behind the Pirates retiring Billy Meyer's number?

No one really knows; heck, there are researchers in Pittsburgh who have been trying for years to find out *when* it was retired, let alone *why*. Even Sally O'Leary, who had been with the organization for years, didn't remember when or why when one of the Pittsburgh SABR members asked her a couple of years ago.

-- MWE

I was going to mention Hrbek--Bob Allison was an exactly comparable player for the same number of years, & I've never heard anyone mentioning retiring his number

More on Bill Meyer, from a quick study of the Sporting News:

Meyer died on March 31, 1957; his TSN obituary mentions his managerial stint for the Pirates but does not refer to his number being retired. On Opening Day, the Pirates observed a moment of silence for Meyer; again, there was no mention of his number being retired. In September of that year, the Knoxville ballpark was renamed in his honor (he was a native of the city and during the dedication ceremony he was called its #1 baseball figure). In TSN's 4/23/1958 issue, there's a brief mention by one of the columnists that the Pirates had retired #1 in Meyer's honor, along with #33 for Honus Wagner.

Meyer was a well-known and well-liked figure among baseball people (he got a nearly full-page obit in TSN, which testfies to his name recognition), and there are a lot of quotes in TSN from that era where people credited him for something or other. It's seems likely that after his death the Pirates quietly retired his number as a tribute (the TSN blurb of 4/23/58 implies as much) but without a ceremony or a lot of fanfare.

-- MWE

-- MWE

Thanks for the info, Mike.

I don't think anyone has worn Gantner's number since he stopped playing, so they've sorta retired it, I guess.

I don't think anyone has worn Gantner's number since he stopped playing, so they've sorta retired it, I guess.


This is true, but I almost hate Gantner because of it.