Time heals all wounds.

Time heals all wounds.

Participants in a few conflicts around the world might dispute this.

How, exactly, did McGwire "take the fall" for steroid use? He was never fined or suspended or received any punishment whatsoever. He continued to live in comfortable retirement. MLB didn't do anything to prevent him getting a job with the Cardinals when the issue came up.

"If you have not been following the heroine epidemic..."

So many possibilities, so little time

Time heals all wounds.

Except these crazy eyes.

How, exactly, did McGwire "take the fall" for steroid use?

You're not serious.

Does anyone use "begs the question" correctly? It's rivaling "misnomer" for most misused words in the media.

You're not serious.

I am serious. I can see the argument that Barry Bonds "took the fall" for steroid use. I can't see it for McGwire. McGwire was already retired when all this stuff came out - how did he take the fall?

McGwire has been ostracized, most specifically from the HOF. You really think he gets only 20% if he never had to appear in front of congress?

I could understand if steroid use was cheating while he played, but it wasn't, so yea he's paid a very high price for just playing the game like everyone else.

Not being voted into the Hall of Fame isn't a "punishment", by any stretch of the imagination.

Does anyone use "begs the question" correctly? It's rivaling "misnomer" for most misused words in the media.

"Hopefully" & "literally" say hello!

Deja vu and ironically.

Not being voted into the Hall of Fame isn't a "punishment", by any stretch of the imagination.

In that case, somebody'd better tell the New York Times ("The only way to punish them is to deny them a place in Cooperstown. The punishment has already been visited on Mark McGwire" , “I felt he had been punished long enough.”), ESPN ("MLB should use Cooperstown as leverage in punishing PED users... Perhaps the Hall of Fame voters will punish you when it is time for induction"), NBC Sports ("A piece of his punishment likely will be handed down this winter"), Major League Baseball ("in McGwire's specific case, some voters had expressed a desire to give him a one-year "punishment" for his alleged steroid use."), and the various HoF voters who have explicitly written about "the only way to punish" steroid users.

I really don't care what sportswriters think about the issue. I say again, being left out of the Hall of Fame isn't a "punishment" in any real sense. If that were the case, almost every baseball player is "taking the fall" for steroids.

The Hall of Fame is the highest honor a player can achieve. Mark McGwire has been denied this honor because of his involvement with PEDs.

That you don't care what sportswriters think is great but I am willing to bet that Mark McGwire would dearly love to be in the Hall of Fame and honored with the best of the best as he deserves. That there may be valid reasons for him not to be inducted the reality is that he was surely going in had it not been for his appearance in front of Congress.

All right, fine. If we define "taking the fall" as "not getting voted into the Hall of Fame", then fine, he took the fall. Forgive me if I don't feel too sorry for him, though.

If you really don't care what the sportswriters think about a decision made entirely by sportswriters, it puts a little imprecision into your definition of what the sportswriters have and haven't been doing.

I am willing to bet that Mark McGwire would dearly love to be in the Hall of Fame and honored with the best of the best as he deserves.

None of us know McGwire's heart. But he never seemed comfortable with the wall of praise, either.

I've gotten the sense that Mark McGwire's unbroken silence in response to the sportswriters' last 7 or 8 years of angry revisionism, suggested apology statements, and 22% vote totals has galled them.

I say again, being left out of the Hall of Fame isn't a "punishment" in any real sense. If that were the case, almost every baseball player is "taking the fall" for steroids.

Not almost every baseball player deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. McGwire would be an easy in if not for the steroids mess. That's how he's being punished--he's being deprived of something he would have received. If you want to argue that McGwire wouldn't be in even without the steroids issue, then I'll agree to disagree with you.

All right, fine. If we define "taking the fall" as "not getting voted into the Hall of Fame", then fine, he took the fall. Forgive me if I don't feel too sorry for him, though.

What do these two things have to do with one another? If he were "really" punished to your satisfaction, would you then feel sorry for him? I don't feel sorry for Timothy McVeigh, but I'd say he was punished.

I've gotten the sense that Mark McGwire's unbroken silence in response to the sportswriters' last 7 or 8 years of angry revisionism, suggested apology statements, and 22% vote totals has galled them.

i hope the sports 'writers' choke on it myself. i'm sick of their phony moral outrage.

i'm a big cardinal fan, so naturally i hope mcgwire's coaching turns the whole lineup into babe ruths. the fact that it would bug the hell out of those pipsqueaks would be the icing on the cake.

I say again, being left out of the Hall of Fame isn't a "punishment" in any real sense. If that were the case, almost every baseball player is "taking the fall" for steroids.

Floyd Landis was punished for PED's by not being named Tour De France winner. Same thing. Or do you think that Landis wasn't punished, or that his punishment was limited to not being able to participate in future events?

I have no idea who Floyd Landis is, nor do I follow professional cycling, so I can't comment on his case.

I guess originally I didn't consider inclusion or exclusion in the Baseball Hall of Fame to be a comment on anything, because I really don't care who is included in or excluded from the Hall of Fame.

As for things that actually matter in the real world -

- He was never suspended or fined for PED use.

- He was never the subject of criminal investigation or prosecution for PED use.

- When, during McGwire's career, a reporter pointed out evidence of PED use, it was the reporter, not McGwire, who was attacked in the press.

- MLB made no effort to prevent him from being hired as a coach.

From that angle, surely you can see why I was confused as to how McGwire "took the fall"?

But I see now that this conversation is purely about McGwire and the Hall, which is a subject I couldn't care less about, so I'll back out.

I have no idea who Floyd Landis is, nor do I follow professional cycling, so I can't comment on his case.

Floyd Landis won the Tour de France in 2006. A later drug test demonstrated the presence of a skewed testosterone/epitestosterone ratio during Stage 17. He was then stripped of the title and suspended for over 2 years.

edit: The situations aren't exactly analogous: Landis was stripped of an honor he had otherwise objectively earned due to PED allegations, whereas McGwire has been prevented from receiving an honor he otherwise subjectively earned due to drug allegations. But it's close enough.

The situations aren't exactly analogous: Landis was stripped of an honor he had otherwise objectively earned due to PED allegations, whereas McGwire has been prevented from receiving an honor he otherwise subjectively earned due to drug allegations.

A Tour de France win is more analogous to winning a championship in baseball than it is to getting into the Hall of Fame, no?

A Tour de France win is more analogous to winning a championship in baseball than it is to getting into the Hall of Fame, no?

Yes, in the sense that it's the ultimate goal of the athlete to win a title.

No, in the sense that both a Tour de France victory and induction into the Hall of Fame are the most prestigious individual achievements the athlete can accomplish.

I'd lean more toward the "no" way of looking at it since PED use is an individual matter.

I'm with JRE here. The only substantial thing McGwire is being deprived of as a result of his suspected steroid use is the Hall of Fame. But to take the fall would suggest that he's the only one who is going to suffer that fate for all of baseball's steroids users. Unless the rest of the clan (starting with Raffy, who doesn't seem to have a prayer of getting in), then it really is a poor choice of words.

The only substantial thing McGwire is being deprived of as a result of his suspected steroid use is the Hall of Fame.

And not only that, but he could still be elected to the Hall of Fame. This isn't a Pete Rose/Shoeless Joe Jackson situation.

Unless the rest of the clan (starting with Raffy, who doesn't seem to have a prayer of getting in), then it really is a poor choice of words.

Oh, I'll agree with poor choice of words w/r/t "take the fall." The thing I disagree with most here is this:

"He was never fined or suspended or received any punishment whatsoever."

I think his denial (so far) of the HOF qualifies as a punishment, however roundabout.

EDIT: Agree with #27 in that if he is elected at some point, he will have not been punished in any real way.

"Where was Selig when McGwire Needed Him?"

Twisting the knife in his back, I thought.

- When, during McGwire's career, a reporter pointed out evidence of PED use, it was the reporter, not McGwire, who was attacked in the press.

It was a supplement, and McGwire was widely criticized for taking it, much more than the now nameless reporter. I guess you don't think having to endure years of public criticism over something he was allowed to do, in fact was part of his job, is any type of punishment. I'd love to see what would happen if a coworker got angry that you worked too hard and made him look bad, and decided to publicly criticize you every day. That's not punishment is it. Just plain harrasment right? But not punishment?

But I see now that this conversation is purely about McGwire and the Hall, which is a subject I couldn't care less about, so I'll back out.

Somebody should email Dewey and let him know that someone else used his ID for posts 24 & 27.

DB

I say again, being left out of the Hall of Fame isn't a "punishment" in any real sense. If that were the case, almost every baseball player is "taking the fall" for steroids.

Not almost every baseball player deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. McGwire would be an easy in if not for the steroids mess. That's how he's being punished--he's being deprived of something he would have received. If you want to argue that McGwire wouldn't be in even without the steroids issue, then I'll agree to disagree with you.

Of course McGwire would have sailed into the HoF on the first ballot without that deaf and dumb act he pulled at the hearing. Big Duh. But what does that have to do with Selig?

Does Selig elect players to the Hall of Fame?

Has Selig been telling writers to blackball McGwire? I've seen no evidence of that.

Did Selig tell LaRussa he couldn't hire McGwire as a coach?

Has Selig ever done one thing to impair McGwire's earning ability?

Unless you think that it was somehow Selig's personal obligation to send a video statement to every Hall of Fame voter, endorsing McGwire's character and telling them that a vote for McGwire would be his fervent wish, then it's hard to see where Selig is responsible for McGwire's "plight."

It wasn't Selig who clammed up before Congress. It was McGwire.

And it isn't Selig who's keeping McGwire out of the Hall of Fame.

If you've got a problem with poor McGwire's being blackballed by the writers (Boo, hoo), then take it up with the writers. Selig has nothing to do with his exclusion. McGwire brought on this "punishment" 100% on his own.

It was a supplement, and McGwire was widely criticized for taking it, much more than the now nameless reporter.

It was the AP's Steve Wilstein, and at the time, he received far more criticism than McGwire did.

I guess originally I didn't consider inclusion or exclusion in the Baseball Hall of Fame to be a comment on anything, because I really don't care who is included in or excluded from the Hall of Fame.

As for things that actually matter in the real world -


Being elected to the HOF brings a place in history and a source of income (appearance fees and the like). It most definitely matters in the real world.

Of course McGwire would have sailed into the HoF on the first ballot without that deaf and dumb act he pulled at the hearing. Big Duh. But what does that have to do with Selig?

I was responding to Dewey, not to the article.

As to Selig, I don't think the point is that Selig is keeping Mc out of the HoF or should personally do anything to put him in. The point is that while dozens of MLB players or more were more or less openly taking PEDs of various kinds, Selig and friends happily looked the other way and counted their money. Now that somebody is being criticized/punished/shamed/ridiculed/etc. for the use of PEDs in MLB, Selig and friends are happily looking the other way and counting their money.

This is not right.

Forget punishment. Who has been accountable? Bonds, Mc, Raffy, Clemens--they've been called to account in the court of journalistic wrath and of public opinion. Selig and fiends have looked the other way and counted their money and have persistently and proactively eluded accountability.