The fact that he retired as early as he did clearly has cost him because of the 382 home runs.

Would Rice's candidacy really be look at that much better if he hung around and tried to reach 400 HR? Seems like that gain--which might've been for naught, given his performance that last year--from reaching 400 HR would be overwhelmed by the further damage it would do to his rep and his rate stats.

I could be persuaded though.

But for him to be in the top 5 in MVP balloting 6 times in 12 years, to me, speaks more about his career than the fact that his career OPS is the same as Ellis Burks.

I assume Gammons will be leading the Juan Gonzalez hall of fame charge in a few years?

alan_in_brighton__Guest_ How did surgery go for David Ortiz? Do you think he will be in '06 shape for this season, or should we expect a solid year like this past season, with a little less home run power?

Peter_Gammons My guess is that he'll be fine. And in a lot less pain than he was at times last year. I thought for nearly three months, he was very clear that self confident presence was missing and it was injury related. In the 40 HR range... what's going to be interesting is going to be how Manny has with him. Manny rented a house in the Phoenix area and has become a maniacal workout warrior in Tempe Arizona at API. From what I've heard from people at API, Manny is getting himself into phenomenal shape. And having watched those workouts, I can tell you, they are extremely difficult.

the two highest regarded young hitters other than Brandon Moss

Since Moss kind of sucks, this doesn't give me a lot of hope for Kalish and Anderson.

I liked Mailman a lot going into last year's draft, and nothing I've seen since has changed my mind. I wanted Lars with the Pirates' 2nd-round pick in '06, too.

Of course, I'm me, and not a prospect expert, so YMMV.

Isn't every Peter Gammons chat a Red Sox chat?

What about Bubba Bell?

I liked the comment about the Red Sox and Yankees hoping to wake up and discover Johan is a Met. Why Omar and Johan won't hook up is the greatest mystery in American culture since the failure of Mary and Brett Favre to shack up back in 1998...

the greatest mystery in American culture since the failure of Mary and Brett Favre to shack up back in 1998...

Dude, she was a 49ers fan.

But for him to be in the top 5 in MVP balloting 6 times in 12 years, to me, speaks more about his career than the fact that his career OPS is the same as Ellis Burks.

How would have Rice done in the MVP balloting if he had played in the Astrodome his entire career?

"Was" being the operative word. No way is she a fan these days...

Neyer who are so obsessed with degrading Rice’s career.

–verb (used with object) 1. to lower in dignity or estimation; bring into contempt: He felt they were degrading him by making him report to the supervisor.
2. to lower in character or quality; debase.
3. to reduce (someone) to a lower rank, degree, etc.; deprive of office, rank, status, or title, esp. as a punishment: degraded from director to assistant director.
4. to reduce in amount, strength, intensity, etc.

So, I guess he's using the fourth one. I always interpret degrade along the lines of 1 & 2. I thought the word was a bit out of place.

I suspect he meant to say "denigrate", but didn't engage the ol' brain clutch all the way before using one of them $10 college words.

You know, I never noticed that Gene Tenace put up an OPS+ of at least 130 twelve times in 13 seasons, starting in 1970... and retired with a 136 OPS+ in over 5500 plate appearances...

I guess a lot of walks will add up to a "stealth OPS+".....

I assume Gammons will be leading the Juan Gonzalez hall of fame charge in a few years?

And Albert Belle. And Dale Murphy.

From what I've heard from people at API, Manny is getting himself into phenomenal shape. And having watched those workouts, I can tell you, they are extremely difficult.

Sounds like a walk year/option year drive.

the greatest mystery in American culture since the failure of Mary and Brett Favre to shack up back in 1998...

Dude, she was a 49ers fan.

That role was written for Steve Young, but he read the script and realized he couldn't be a part of it. ####### Mormons.

He doesn't really suck. He's a fourth outfielder type. If he was a fifth outfield type or wasn't good enough to make it up at all, then you could say he sucks.

I don't disagree that he's a 4th OF type. I think he'd be a good fourth OF. Nothing wrong with that, although if the highest regarded young hitter in the system hits like a 4th OF, then I think that kind of sucks. I meant it more as an indictment of the system.

####### Mormons.

Only when they're married!

That role was written for Steve Young, but he read the script and realized he couldn't be a part of it. ####### Mormons.

A smart Farrelly brother would have gone for the jugular and gotten Joe to be in it.

I was a little surprised to see Gammons call out Neyer, since they both work for the Worldwide Leader.

I assume Gammons will be leading the Juan Gonzalez hall of fame charge in a few years?

And Albert Belle. And Dale Murphy.


Juan only made the top 5 in MVP voting 4 times, not 6. Clearly not a Ricean figure.

Bell only did it 3 times; Murphy twice.

Jim Rice is, in fact, 29th all time in Career MVP Shares. The only eligible player ahead of him who is not in the Hall of Fame is Dave Parker.

Well, that convinces me.

Dave Parker is a Hall of Famer.

McGriffy, instead of saying "don't disagree", wouldn't you save a little on carpal tunnel syndrome risk if you just typed "agree"

Oh man, you should hear the way I talk. The roundabout way I type is actually a vast improvement.

I liked the comment about the Red Sox and Yankees hoping to wake up and discover Johan is a Met. Why Omar and Johan won't hook up is the greatest mystery in American culture since the failure of Mary and Brett Favre to shack up back in 1998...

I think Johan makes the most sense for the Dodgers because they have money and prospects but they don't seem too interested in him for some reason. The Mets make the most sense of the remaining teams in my opinion but don't have the prospects the Yanks and Sox have.

"Don't disagree" does not equal "agree"

"Don't disagree" does not equal "agree"

I don't not undisagree with that.

I don't not undisagree with that.

That's unpossible.

That's unpossible.

It's not only not unpossible its almost not uninevitable,

Prince Charming: You! You can't lie! So tell me puppet... where... is... Shrek?

Pinocchio: Uh. Hmm, well, uh, I don't know where he's not

Prince Charming: You're telling me you don't know where Shrek is?

Pinocchio: It wouldn't be inaccurate to assume that I couldn't exactly not say that it is or isn't almost partially incorrect.

Prince Charming: So you do know where he is!

Pinocchio: On the contrary. I'm possibly more or less not definitely rejecting the idea that in no way with any amount of uncertainty that I undeniably

Prince Charming: Stop it!

Pinocchio: ...do or do not know where he shouldn't probably be, if that indeed wasn't where he isn't. Even if he wasn't at where I knew he was. That'd mean I'd really have to know where he wasn't.

"Don't disagree" does not equal "agree"

I agree.


EDIT: too slow.

I meant it more as an indictment of the system.

FWIW, according to Callis, BA will rank the Sox system #2 overall. With at least 14 players better than David Wright. (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

In any event, as a Memphian, the Jay Reatard reference is appreciated. I wouldn't be surprised if RETARDO has come down to the Bluff City to see him.

Goner Records rocks!

A not unquick fox was chasing a not unsmall dog across a not ungreen field...

By the way, I guess I'm the first here to congratulate Rob Neyer. Congratulations, Rob: You can add Peter Gammons to the list of prominent writers who have gone out of their way to personally, by name, slap you in the face with a shoestring. Most of us can only dream of that kind of celebrity.

I don't not undisagree with that.

That's unpossible.

Well, it certainly was disobvious to me.

* * *

Unobvious? Aobvious? Antiobvious?

Is this another one of Gammmons' dissing 'sabernerds' to appeal to the lowest common denominator again?

Is this another one of Gammmons' dissing 'sabernerds' to appeal to the lowest common denominator again?

I'd say it is more Gammons' background--Gammons covered those 1970s-80s Red Sox teams, saw them, wrote about them, remembers them. Rice was a dramatic, important part of that time, place, and team, so it makes sense that Rice would be "huge"--and a HoFer--in Gammons' mind.

#16. I heard that the role was intended for Drew Bledsoe but that he had to back out for whatever reason and they turned to Favre.

Since Moss kind of sucks

hey hey hey, watch it

Gammons's slap at Rob N., absent any supporting argument, is not entirely unswinish stuff. Anyone know to what Gammons refers?

I assume Gammons will be leading the Juan Gonzalez hall of fame charge in a few years?

And Albert Belle. And Dale Murphy.

...aaaannnnnndddddd... MIKE CRUDALE!


What a lousy chat. The ranking of those guys behind Moss is an indictment of Gammons, not the prospects. And Gammons makes it sound like Rice walked away a la Barry Sanders. Rice was unceremoniously released after hitting .234 with no power or walks. Why does Gammons take Neyer's well-backed-up opinion that Rice isn't a HOF player personally?

The Ortiz stuff is ridiculous too. Gee, I sure hope he can get back his duende so that he can return to hitting like he did in 2006, rather than his superior hitting in 2007.

Well, it certainly was disobvious to me.

* * *

Unobvious? Aobvious? Antiobvious?

Peanuts reference!

duende

Papi Ortiz is an Andalusian/Gypsy flamenco dancer?