I cannot believe the Phillies are actually likely to win the World Series. The Phillies, of all teams. And it's actually hard to think of some other team who would have been a substantially better pick to win it. Although I used the "best rotation means best chance to win in the playoffs" logic and came away quite pessimistic about their chances based on that one criterion.

Carlos Baerga is doing post game on ESPNews. While he may be a great analyst, I can hardly understand anything he's saying.

Blanton killed that ball.

I don't think for a second it would have made a difference in this game, but it's pretty clear that Blanton has the Kenny Rogers spot on his hat.

It's not anything illegal. If it was an illegal substance, why would he be stupid enough to put it on the outside of his hat and not under the brim?

why would he be stupid enough to put it on the outside of his hat and not under the brim?

Maybe he is that stupid

man, i would be so happy if the phils won the world series. i'm sick of these ####### upstart rays. also, i'm a red sox fan.

I'm sick of teams that aren't the best team in baseball winning the World Series. The Rays are a hell of a lot closer to being that than the Phillies are.

I find myself bending to the Phils, of late. But it ain't over yet.

I'm sick of teams that aren't the best team in baseball winning the World Series. The Rays are a hell of a lot closer to being that than the Phillies are.

You ought to redirect your energies toward convincing people to ignore the playoffs as a Champions League-style sideshow and treat the regular season as the extent of the baseball season.

I'm sick and tired of posters like Vaux misunderstanding and misrepresenting how good the Phillies really are. They had six hitters with VORP of over 30; of those, Victorino, their CFer, had the lowest EQA, with .277. They have an excellent bullpen, especially since Madson stepped in the 8th inning, and both Romero and Durbin have been very good. And even though they have one true ace in Hamels, the other three starters are more than respectable. They are about as complete of a team as any you'd find in the NL this year, and they certainly deserve to be here. They sure as hell deserve it more than the Mets, for example. [And yes, the Cubs were probably the better team this season. But they should've beaten the Dodgers, like the Phillies did.]

I'm sick of teams that aren't the best team in baseball winning the World Series. The Rays are a hell of a lot closer to being that than the Phillies are.

Yeah, but nobody tell the Phillies... we wouldnt want to depress them right before their championship parade.


As a Boston fan I strongly believe championships must be earned through pain, suffering and close calls. Not bandwagon fans who think theyre at a football game. Every time I see a shot of a Rays fan crying I fall out of my chair laughing. 99% of you are not allowed to cry. You can only enjoy the free ride and shrug your shoulders if you lose.

Now NEXT YEAR... then I can respect you as fans... if you lose the stupid f***ing cowbells. Honestly, you should know half of the stuff you "fans" are doing is embarrassing yourselves and the sport of baseball. Throw out your cowbells. If youre not a woman under the age of 25 or an extremely drunken middle aged man go wash the purple face paint off. Pay attention to the G.D. game at all times. Stop ######## about every call. You stole Game 2 of the ALCS through five TERRIBLE calls in the 11th and thereby the series - you dont get to ##### about calls anymore. I dont want to hear anymore about the Rollins tag tonight. Did you miss the play at first yesterday(Game 3) where Moyer made that nice shovel pass and had Crawford dead to rights at first but the ump blew the call? Welcome to baseball, people of Tampa. Umpires occasionally blow calls. It evens out. Youve got more than your fair share of calls in your favor already. Deal.

Lastly, Philly deserves it more than you. They are actual baseball fans. Theyve loved their team for a long team despite a good amount of suckiness(Oh, and they actually went to games during the bad years). They havent had a championship in their town for a long time, but they dont blame stupid curses like Cubs fans. You had the Lightning and Bucs recently. Please, though, if nothing else - PLEASE throw out the cowbells.

As a Boston fan

... you lose all right to whinge about anything whatsoever. The Red Sox have become the Yankees of the new millennium.

Seriously. I'm not one to generally bash Red Sox fans - but a whining diatribe about how the Rays' fans don't deserve anything is pathetic, regardless of the source, but especially coming from a Red Sox fan.

Now NEXT YEAR... then I can respect you as fans... if you lose the stupid f***ing cowbells. Honestly, you should know half of the stuff you "fans" are doing is embarrassing yourselves and the sport of baseball. Throw out your cowbells.

How about the Rays throwing out the cowbells -- and the Red Sox throwing out "Sweet Caroline." Both practices are obnoxious.

With his vitriol, one wonders if he believes that only the 10 pre-expansion franchises that haven't changed cities from 1953 on are worthy of winning the Series.

As a Red Sox fan who ####### when we're all lumped in the same boat, I'll agree with the objections of scareduck and akrasian. The Rays are an 11-year-old franchise that has sucked for the first 10 years of its existence. The fact that they hadn't built a 30,000-plus season ticket base is completly understandable. The current club is the first time the organization has given the dormant fans a reason to be hopeful, and they've responded pretty well.

And there are undoubtedly plenty of Rays fans (jim w. and brickhaus come to mind, and that's just here), who have suffered through all of those losing seasons and have remained committed to the team. And if their team happens to come back and win this championship, I'll be happy for them. Just as I'll be happy for Crispix, Edmundo, Crashburn and others if the Phils finish it off.

Hell, all I've wanted since the series started was 7 games. The end result was secondary, since a victory by either club was all right by me.

Seriously. I'm not one to generally bash Red Sox fans - but a whining diatribe about how the Rays' fans don't deserve anything is pathetic, regardless of the source, but especially coming from a Red Sox fan.

You misunderstood. The part about not deserving anything was my rationale for why Im cheeing for Philly. Theyve suffered.

The original point of my post was that Rays fans are whiny #######.

The stuff in between had some random potshots. They dont change my argument, and even if they did, I apologize for nothing.

One of the things I'll remember most from this World Series is all the umpiring gaffes.

This makes me a hater but I can't be happy for the Phillies and their fans. They've caused me too much pain the last two seasons.

One of the things I'll remember most from this World Series is all the umpiring gaffes.

It seems that the TV stations are making an effort to turn this into an issue. viz. Buck's numerous ominous references to that double play where the Phillies guy was doubled off first after Iwamura caught the ball. Although the one replay suggested it was indeed a double play, Buck continued to be suspicious of the umpires' accuracy.

I don't think the bad calls have run one way. Tampa Bay benefited twice the other night at the dome by two mistakes by Danley behind the plate and by the bad call at first base on Crawford's drag bunt Saturday night. But the Phillies got the break tonight when Longoria obviously tagged out Rollins at third base but didn't get the call.

It seems that the TV stations are making an effort to turn this into an issue. viz. Buck's numerous ominous references to that double play where the Phillies guy was doubled off first after Iwamura caught the ball. Although the one replay suggested it was indeed a double play, Buck continued to be suspicious of the umpires' accuracy.

That(Buck) was really the inspiration for my rant above... Im just sick of the spin people are putting on the umpiring - its no different than normal. These crappy calls are par for the course and they certainly arent favoring one team.

Its like people woke up in 2008 and decided theyd never seen a bad call before. Same thing with the NFL and Ed Hochuli. These calls that are causing an uproar are the same stuff Ive seen every week Ive been watching football since I was 6 years old.

There is nothing remarkable or alarming about the umpiring in the playoffs and World Series and people need to stop acting like there is. Ive heard more complaining about calls this postseason... the whining needs to stop. This is part of the game and the calls are not even that bad. Its no different than what youd see in a week's worth of games in the regular season.

I'm with alskor - #### em - go Philly - sweep the leg tomorrow.

You misunderstood. The part about not deserving anything was my rationale for why Im cheeing for Philly. Theyve suffered.

10 years of being basically the worst team in baseball isn't "suffering"?

The original point of my post was that Rays fans are whiny #######.

And you're not?

I'm glad Phillies fans get to be happy. That's not the point.

And I get that the Phillies are a good team, but they won 92 games, with a pythagorean percentage to match, in the National League. Swap them for any team in the AL East, and they wouldn't have made the playoffs. Even the Rays--Yankees vs. Phillies 18 times would surely result in the Yankees finishing in front.

I want an early end, I want the chicken in the pot, the bird in the hand, a cracked egg shell. Just win it.

Go Phillies! Go Cole! Crack two more, Ryan!

"This makes me a hater but I can't be happy for the Phillies and their fans. They've caused me too much pain the last two seasons."

I understand that.. not unlike witnessing the girl of your dreams in the backseat of a car doing what she oughtn't be doing and doing it with unabashed enthusiasm to a long time acquaintance - it's kind of tough feeling happy for him. Not fun.

The original point of my post was that Rays fans are whiny #######.

And yet you managed to prove a completely different point. Bravo good man.

Ive heard more complaining about calls this postseason... the whining needs to stop.

but wait

You stole Game 2 of the ALCS through five TERRIBLE calls in the 11th and thereby the series

I'm not sure what's more amusing- the above series of posts, an UmpSox fan complaining about the men in blue, or a proud member of Pink Hat Nation whining about bandwagon fans. I'll call it a tie.

Go Rays... for two more games.

I forgot what sore losers Boston fans were after their recent run of being such sore winners.

Though Anaheim fans' schadenfreude is understandable, the Red Sox faithful must have found it difficult to lose to a team that is universally judged inferior and whose fan base is populated by NFL bandwagoners who don't know the game.

The outcome of the series hasn't been particularly surprising. Most people were favoring TB because they knocked off Boston, but few took note of the fact that the Phillies have a far better offense and a fair rotation once you account for Eaton, Kendrick, and first-half Myers. The Blanton performance tonight was a pleasant surprise, but anyone who expected the Phillies' offense to disappear hasn't been paying attention.

For my part, I'd like to see Utley drop down four bunt hits in Game 5 to punish Maddon for his TLR-ish tendency to remind us of his strategic brilliance.

a team that is universally judged inferior and whose fan base is populated by NFL bandwagoners who don't know the game.

Now you know what it's like for a Red Wings fan to see the Stanley Cup in places like Anaheim, Raleigh, and, yes, Tampa Bay before it was returned to its rightful place last spring.

From the AP article on the game:

In this campaign season, the Rays resemble a team from a swing - and miss - state. No. 3 hitter Carlos Pena and cleanup man Evan Longoria have combined to go an A-Rod-like 0-for-29 with 15 strikeouts in the Series.

This goes into news stories now?

I think it's pretty clear the Phillies are the best team in baseball right now, and would be beating any of the other 28 teams 3-1 too. The only major weakness all season long was the 5th starter position and the #4 spot before Blanton was acquired and Myers turned it around.

It's not like the playoffs are random. The Phillies excel at things that help in a short series more than the regular season - good frontline starters, good (but not necessarily deep) bullpens, and the ability to hit HR. They are beating probably the best or close to the best regular season team fairly handily, and all without the benefit of getting hits w/RISP for 3 1/2 games. They've already beat the most feared pitcher of the post-season (Sabathia) and the hottest team (Dodgers), and done so with relative ease.

I don't think there is another starter in baseball I would take over Hamels right now, or a 8/9 combo like Madson/Lidge. They may not be a great team, but they are at least in the very good category - no different (or worse) than any team that has won since the 2001 D'Backs.

Moyer is not good; he is somehow getting good results, but I wouldn't trust him to have an ERA below 5.50 in the AL or in any subsequent season. Myers has had good seasons, and continued to have good games this season, but his overall season hasn't been very good, and the same is true of Blanton. So the Phillies rotation is sort of mediocre. The two teams they beat to get to the World Series also aren't that great. Tampa should have won this easily, except that the short-series format allows a team to ride one or two good/hot starters to victory despite having little rotation depth, or to ride one or two good relievers despite having no bullpen depth, or a hot middle of the order, despite not having a great 1-8. Since depth is often what separates the best teams from those that aren't as good, especially in this day and age, it seems, the short series is totally inadequate.

Vaux-
this last post from you is full of irrelevant whininess. Sorry.

"moyer is not good"

He doesn't pitch in the AL. He's almost 46. He has done wonderfully this year. He's won over 200 game in his career.

Myers has had good seasons, and continued to have good games this season, but his overall season hasn't been very good, and the same is true of Blanton.

They both pitched well enough to get the Phillies into the playoffs and have pitched well enough in the playoffs for the Phils to win there as well. I'll take that.

The two teams they beat to get to the World Series also aren't that great.

They had a winning record against CHC in the regular season as well. They can't help who they draw.

The short-series format allows a team to ride one or two good/hot starters to victory despite having little rotation depth, or to ride one or two good relievers despite having no bullpen depth, or a hot middle of the order, despite not having a great 1-8.

How'd that work for Manny and CC?

Since depth is often what separates the best teams from those that aren't as good, especially in this day and age, it seems, the short series is totally inadequate.

So now you want to make the World Series 15 games long? The Phils do in fact have depth in their lineup and pitching staff. Did you see their #4 go 7 IP w/ 2 ER last night? Did you know he hasn't recorded an "L" as an NL pitcher yet?

The Phils are playing by the same rules as their opponents (bad umpiring aside..). It's quite evident that you're unhappy with the teams in the WS (or with the Phils leading it), however, they're both quite deserving and very good teams. The best record in the AL vs the second best in the NL.

"In this campaign season, the Rays resemble a team from a swing - and miss - state. No. 3 hitter Carlos Pena and cleanup man Evan Longoria have combined to go an A-Rod-like 0-for-29 with 15 strikeouts in the Series."

This stuck out to me, too. It should really have read a "Hodgian like 0-for-29", yes?

I'm happy for Phils fans. But for any Red Sox fan (or fan of any other team), suck it. Your team lost. Your team lost because they weren't as good as the other team. Now shut up.

And for all the talk of bandwagonning, by what percentage has the number of Red Sox fans jumped since 2004? Yeah, I'll buy that some 50 and overs have suffered with the Sox but anyone younger than that has had some good teams to cheer for and some moments of glory. Not to mention as many world titles in the last ten years as the dreaded Yankees.

I'm rooting for the Phils -bleep the Vitale-loving, special-ed-haircutted Rays- but their jackass fans are probably going to burn the city down if they win the WS.

But for any Red Sox fan (or fan of any other team), suck it. Your team lost. Your team lost because they weren't as good as the other team. Now shut up.

it's true, they were better. i'm not going to shut up, though.

i've been rooting for the phillies. why? crap like this and this ... they have a long history of throwing at red sox players, starting fights with the red sox and then taking cheap shots. remember when pedro almost no-hit them and half their team was ejected? so yeah ... #### 'em.

I have been enjoying this season like no other. Maybe it's age and creeping senility, but I've reached a zen-like state in regards to the Phillies. It's been such a ride, ups and downs, for every Eaton there's been a Durbin, for every strikeout with runners on second and third with no outs there's a Blanton homer. For every 0 for forever Hits with RISP, there is a dribbler down third or Pedro Feliz, of all people, getting the first hit to go the OF with RISP in the fourth game. For every Ryan Howard panic moment because the ball is in his hand, you have a crackerjack DP to get the team out of an inning.

My fondest hopes are that the Series ends tonight because I'm dangerously sleep deprived and that Pat Burrell ends his Phillies career with a 2 home run night, let's say a 3-run in the 1st and one in the 6th right after the Rays score a run to tighten up the game.

Okay, chris. It's a tragedy that such a fine, classy group of guys like the 03-08 Red Sox have been treated badly by someone.

The short-series format allows a team to ride one or two good/hot starters to victory

... complained A's manager Connie Mack after seeing Mathewson and McGinnity in a five-game loss to the Giants :)

Watching this series, I'm truly shocked by the horrible results that Longoria and Pena are getting. I can't tell if these 2 guys are just slumping, or if the Phillies' advance scouting was light years better than the Red Sox' advance scouting on how to pitch them. Whoever scouted the Rays for the Sox before the ALCS should be fired, because the Sox pitchers had no idea how to approach either of these guys, while the Phillies have done a fantastic job getting these guys out. What are they doing differently, besides not hanging terrible pitches up in the zone like the Sox did time and time again?

... complained A's manager Connie Mack after seeing Mathewson and McGinnity in a five-game loss to the Giants :)

The A's got their revenge in '89.

Whoever scouted the Rays for the Sox before the ALCS should be fired, because the Sox pitchers had no idea how to approach either of these guys, while the Phillies have done a fantastic job getting these guys out......

In all fairness...it's only been 4 games, and this might be as much on Peña and Longoria as it is on the Phillies scouting. I doubt either one of them has ever faced Hamels/Moyer/Myers/Madson/Lidge before.

Blanton did seem to own them last night, but he was pitching above his level. It was the really good Joe Blanton last night.

Well said, Edmundo. I feel exactly the same way. I've been watching this postseason with an inner calmness that belies my 35-some years of Philadelphia phandom. I can't explain it, but it's a welcome change from the agita I usually suffer. I can't wait for the game tonight, even with the four-hour round-trip drive on the NJ Turnpike, going on something like 11 hours of sleep in three days. The chance to see the Phils win a title in person, with my dad who raised me this way, would mean more to me than an adult should admit. And if they lose tonight? I will calmly drive home knowing that I get to watch this very likable team play another huge game in one of the most enjoyable season's of this phan's life.

Go Phils!!

starting fights with the red sox and then taking cheap shots.

You mean Jonny "Hit 'em from behind when they ain't looking" Gomes?

Rays fans are whiny #######

There are Rays fans? Seriously, early in the year they were still drawing 10-15 thousand a game.

Doesn't change the fact that I'm rooting for them, but still...

now that the rays aren't lovable losers, some people are going to root against them. get used to it.

Moyer is not good; he is somehow getting good results, but I wouldn't trust him to have an ERA below 5.50 in the AL or in any subsequent season.

You could say the same thing about Greg Maddux over, say, the last 7 or 8 years. He's "not good" because he doesn't have a hard fastball or sharp breaking ball? Moyer put on a pitching clinic in game 3. Hit your spots, change speeds, keep the hitters off balance, pitch inside, and exploit their weaknesses.

Perhaps even more importantly, Moyer's influence on Cole Hamels has been huge this year, and is a big reason why Hamels has emerged as a star this season.

I read #12 and then reread the posts above to see who was doing the whining. Looks like just the Red Sox fan, which surprises me not the least.

As a Rays fan, (at least a temporary one) I wish they had played better, but am glad they earned the opportunity to play in the final game of the year. There's really nothing to complain about, as far as bad breaks or bad calls, Ryan Howard's homers made all of that a moot point.

So don't take this as whining, in the end it would not have changed the outcome of the game at all, but ROLLINS WAS OUT. Longoria not only tagged him, after the game he can tell Jimmy Rollins whether or not he's at risk for colon cancer.

I will summarize Vaux's arguments.

If the Phillies had been in the AL, they would have a worse record. If Jamie Moyer had been in the AL, his stats would be worse. If Brett Myers had been in the AL, his stats would have been worse. If Ryan Howard had been in the AL, his stats would have been worse. If Chase Utley had been in the AL, his stats would have been worse. If Jimmy Rollins had been in the AL, his stats would have been worse. If Carlos Ruiz had been in the AL, his stats would have somehow been even worse. It was easier to get through the NL playoffs, because the AL is better than the NL. If a team from the NL looks similar to a team from the AL, the AL team is actually much better, because the AL is much better. In conclusion, it is unfair that an NL team could even have a chance of winning the World Series.

I'm sick of teams that aren't the best team in baseball winning the World Series. The Rays are a hell of a lot closer to being that than the Phillies are.

As a Phillies fan, I actually don't have much of a problem with this evaluation. The Rays and Red Sox are probably stronger teams than the Phillies. But they aren't tougher than the Phillies. Not this year, and not now.

He's "not good" because he doesn't have a hard fastball or sharp breaking ball?

Moyer is coming off his best season in the last 5 years, at age 45. Nobody can last forever. If he pitches next year I expect closer to his 2007 ERA of 5.01 than what he did last year. He pitched very well in game 3, but his other playoff starts were turd sandwiches.

Longoria not only tagged him, after the game he can tell Jimmy Rollins whether or not he's at risk for colon cancer.

I'm 99% convinced myself but I would have liked the reverse angle from CF or RF to absolutely be sure. We have the called shot WS of 1932 and the missed call WS of 2008.
Regardless, I like the colon cancer line.

I'm not sure what's more amusing- the above series of posts, an UmpSox fan complaining about the men in blue, or a proud member of Pink Hat Nation whining about bandwagon fans.

So true. Women aren't real fans.

Well, so much for my "Rays in 6" prediction.

I'm 99% convinced myself but I would have liked the reverse angle from CF or RF to absolutely be sure. We have the called shot WS of 1932 and the missed call WS of 2008.
Regardless, I like the colon cancer line.

Perhaps it was the ultimate makeup call. Upon seeing Rollins have a pitch obviously hit his jersey, and having Danley say "no" and not appealing, this ump took the approach that if Rollins is a "ghost" to pitched balls, then the "ghost" rule has to apply to tag attempts as well. If he wasn't tagged out, he had the world worst wedgie ever.

Re: Vaux's argument...
MLB:NCAA Football::AL East Fan:SEC Fan

I forgot what sore losers Boston fans were after their recent run of being such sore winners.

Of course, no one can forget that Angels fans are in a league of their own when it comes to bitterness.

I forgot what sore losers Boston fans were after their recent run of being such sore winners.

Am I the only Red Sox fan who is pulling for the Rays? Yeah, the teams have had beanball wars in the past, but a lot of that was when Longoria and company were in high school. Even when Boston is eliminated I usually am a soft supporter of the AL representative.

Moyer is coming off his best season in the last 5 years, at age 45. Nobody can last forever. If he pitches next year I expect closer to his 2007 ERA of 5.01 than what he did last year. He pitched very well in game 3, but his other playoff starts were turd sandwiches.

I agree with this. That's one reason why it seems right for the Phils to win it all this year; this was the year that everything came together right in the regular season, in addition to being the year Gillick was building up to, and the last year of Burrell's contract. Even though one can also use various stratagems to conclude that they were actually worse than the Rangers and Orioles.

I'm pulling for the Phillies because I lived in and around Philadelphia for six years. I like the Rays just fine, but I have a loyalty to Philly sports.

Plus, I mean, pick a city: Tampa / St Pete, or Philadelphia. Come on, it ain't close.

It's worth noting that the only reason the Rollins play happened was that Sonnanstine chose not to take a routine double play, and then miscommunicated with Longoria and made the throw to third too late. He was still out, but either the inning should have been over or the play should have been easier.

Am I the only Red Sox fan who is pulling for the Rays?

Isn't Ray DiPerna a Red Sox fan? I'm pretty damn sure that he's pulling for Tampa right now.

Isn't Ray DiPerna a Red Sox fan? I'm pretty damn sure that he's pulling for Tampa right now.

I'm pretty sure he's at the bottom of a bottle right now.

OK, it's fair to say that Red Sox fans named "Ray" are probably pulling for the Rays.

I never knew you spent time in Philly, Matt. Oddly enough, Philly is the one East Coast city I've never been to. I've never been to Tampa either (except the airport) but I don't consider that east coast. But I'd rather visit Philly hands down.

Ray's a Sox fan? I didn't know he even liked baseball. I think the only time I see his name is in the epic off-topic threads.

I'm pretty sure he's at the bottom of a bottle right now.

True. He's probably thinking about how close he was to being able to finally afford that solid gold pony.

Incidentally, who are you? I know you flipped the name recently, but I've lost track.

Ray's a Sox fan? I didn't know he even liked baseball. I think the only time I see his name is in the epic off-topic threads.

He also shows up in steroid threads and Manny threads.

Okay, epic on-topic threads, too.

I'm a Red Sox fan and I'm rooting for the Phils but I have no dislike for the Rays. Other than Iwamura (just something about him) and Gomes I like the Rays, they are a fun team to root for.

As far as the whole "best team" thing I confess myself confused as to why people care so much about being the "best team." The Phillies aren't the best team in baseball but who cares if they win the World Series? I'd rather be the fifth best team and dogpile in October than be the best team and working on my five iron in late October.

Iwamura hit 5 of his 13 career home runs against Boston.

Why does a Phillies/Rays thread have to degenerate into a bashing Redsox fans thread?

Why?

Yeah, but nobody tell the Phillies... we wouldnt want to depress them right before their championship parade.


As a Boston fan I strongly believe championships must be earned through pain, suffering and close calls. Not bandwagon fans who think theyre at a football game. Every time I see a shot of a Rays fan crying I fall out of my chair laughing. 99% of you are not allowed to cry. You can only enjoy the free ride and shrug your shoulders if you lose.

Now NEXT YEAR... then I can respect you as fans... if you lose the stupid f***ing cowbells. Honestly, you should know half of the stuff you "fans" are doing is embarrassing yourselves and the sport of baseball. Throw out your cowbells. If youre not a woman under the age of 25 or an extremely drunken middle aged man go wash the purple face paint off. Pay attention to the G.D. game at all times. Stop ######## about every call. You stole Game 2 of the ALCS through five TERRIBLE calls in the 11th and thereby the series - you dont get to ##### about calls anymore. I dont want to hear anymore about the Rollins tag tonight. Did you miss the play at first yesterday(Game 3) where Moyer made that nice shovel pass and had Crawford dead to rights at first but the ump blew the call? Welcome to baseball, people of Tampa. Umpires occasionally blow calls. It evens out. Youve got more than your fair share of calls in your favor already. Deal.

Lastly, Philly deserves it more than you. They are actual baseball fans. Theyve loved their team for a long team despite a good amount of suckiness(Oh, and they actually went to games during the bad years). They havent had a championship in their town for a long time, but they dont blame stupid curses like Cubs fans. You had the Lightning and Bucs recently. Please, though, if nothing else - PLEASE throw out the cowbells.

As far as the whole "best team" thing I confess myself confused as to why people care so much about being the "best team." The Phillies aren't the best team in baseball but who cares if they win the World Series? I'd rather be the fifth best team and dogpile in October than be the best team and working on my five iron in late October.

Yup. "Best" is a chimerical concept, a mishmash of heterogeneous measures that can be manipulated to mean any of a thousand things.

Is it the best team roster in October? The team with the most wins over the year? Best run differential over the year? Best projected performance based on late season roster? If the "best" team gets hit by injuries, are they still the best? Does it matter if the injured players were considered injury risks? If a team has a lot of wins and runs but a number of seasons well beyond expectations from key players, how many years do we have to wait to know if those years were flukish and then be able to speak to bestness?

And this isn't even to mention that different teams match up differently, so even if there were such a beast as a known 95-win true talent team, they wouldn't necessarily project to win exactly their log5 percentage against another team with known true talent. And playoff rosters.

Basically, "best" can be a perfectly fun category for discussion and debate, but when people start talking about it as a real, knowable, quantifiable thing, it's a very bad sign for the state of discussion.

I'm ultimately rooting for the Rays GGC, though my primary rooting interest has been for a 7-game series. Since I've got nothing against the Phils, I'd rather have seen the Phils in 7 than the Rays in 4.

So if the Phillies win, then the NL gets home field advantage in the ASG, yes?

I'm pretty sure he's at the bottom of a bottle right now.



True. He's probably thinking about how close he was to being able to finally afford that solid gold pony.

Incidentally, who are you? I know you flipped the name recently, but I've lost track.

Damn. I forgot I switched. It was supposed to be just to deliver one lame joke, but then I forgot. Anyway, I'll have to dig out my password to change back.


Anyhow, I'm bunyon. I changed in order to agree with you in the Obama thread about people changing their names - thought it would be funny to change in order to agree people shouldn't change. And the name comes from the song the Phils played while introducing the Rays lineup Saturday night. Which I thought was funny.

against another team with known true talent. And playoff rosters.

Basically, "best" can be a perfectly fun category for discussion and debate, but when people start talking about it as a real, knowable, quantifiable thing, it's a very bad sign for the state of discussion.

Or when a team wins the regular season record, head to head record and a 7 game postgame series. Then it's pretty clear.

He was still out, but either the inning should have been over or the play should have been easier.

The more I think about this, the less blame I place on Sonnanstine. He fields the ball and the runner at 3rd has drifted off the bag and into his vision immediately. Would you rather:
A) Turn what a DP relying on a good throw from the pitcher to SS/2B, knowing that any goofiness results in a run, but if turned properly you're out of the inning with no runs.
B) Put the runner at 3B into a short rundown and a nearly guaranteed out, leaving runners at 1st/2nd w/ two outs and Burrell up (O-for series) against a RHP.

I think Sonnanstine's actions are defensible.

The more I think about this, the less blame I place on Sonnanstine. He fields the ball and the runner at 3rd has drifted off the bag and into his vision immediately. Would you rather:
A) Turn what a DP relying on a good throw from the pitcher to SS/2B, knowing that any goofiness results in a run, but if turned properly you're out of the inning with no runs.
B) Put the runner at 3B into a short rundown and a nearly guaranteed out, leaving runners at 1st/2nd w/ two outs and Burrell up (O-for series) against a RHP.

I think Sonnanstine's actions are defensible.

I thought so too. Sure, the correct play is probably the DP (though how many times have pitchers sailed that throw into CF?), but when a guy is standing between third and home only 30 feet from you, it's really hard not to instinctively run at him and get that easy putout. Which he did.

i pick "A) Turn what a DP relying on a good throw from the pitcher to SS/2B, knowing that any goofiness results in a run, but if turned properly you're out of the inning with no runs."

that was about as easy as a 1-6-3 double play as you can get. and i'd say rundown plays result in more goofiness than any other type of play, so yeah ... A all the way.

Anyhow, I'm bunyon. I changed in order to agree with you in the Obama thread about people changing their names - thought it would be funny to change in order to agree people shouldn't change. And the name comes from the song the Phils played while introducing the Rays lineup Saturday night. Which I thought was funny.

I don't remember making a comment about people changing their names in the Obama thread. I think that might have been Ray - I'll go check. Yep, that was Ray.

Either way, thanks for clearing up the identity. I was wondering where you had disappeared to.

Basically, "best" can be a perfectly fun category for discussion and debate, but when people start talking about it as a real, knowable, quantifiable thing, it's a very bad sign for the state of discussion.

I can agree with this.

Geez, I'm having as bad a day online as in real life - the topic of the post was Ray, so I thought I was addressing Ray.

I'm going to lunch. Maybe I'll have the fish.

10 years of being basically the worst team in baseball isn't "suffering"?

The Red Sox may not have been as bad as the typical pre-2008 Rays season (maybe 1992-93 but that's stretching it a little) in my living memory, but the Patriots, Celtics, and Bruins all, at one time or another, have been, for several seasons at a time in all three cases. It's not the same.

It hurts most when you're let down. A 3-12 Patriots team mailing it in their final game of the season in the miserable climes of Foxboro in December is not really a let down, even if some sportswriters thought they had a shot to avoid double-digit losses going in. (Honestly, that seems like the Stone Age now, but it wasn't *that* long ago.) And neither is an all too typical 30-42-8 Bruins campaign that comes on the heels of them trading anyone who's been good enough long enough to command real money. If you're watching at all by then, you should know what's coming, and if still hurts, you're probably a little oversensitive.

The Tampa Bay Rays, in the World Series the first time that most people who aren't prospect hounds have paid them even an iota of attention, have never broken anyone's heart.

... complained A's manager Connie Mack after seeing Mathewson and McGinnity in a five-game loss to the Giants :)

I bet that he wasn't griping about it in 1910; he did basically the same thing with Coombs and Bender.

Geez, I'm having as bad a day online as in real life - the topic of the post was Ray, so I thought I was addressing Ray.

If it'll make things easier, I can change my handle to Rayan Jones. That way, no one will ever get Ray and I confused.

Is it the best team roster in October? The team with the most wins over the year? Best run differential over the year? Best projected performance based on late season roster? If the "best" team gets hit by injuries, are they still the best? Does it matter if the injured players were considered injury risks? If a team has a lot of wins and runs but a number of seasons well beyond expectations from key players, how many years do we have to wait to know if those years were flukish and then be able to speak to bestness?
Bah, just parameters in a spreadsheet, that's all.

The more I think about this, the less blame I place on Sonnanstine. He fields the ball and the runner at 3rd has drifted off the bag and into his vision immediately. Would you rather:
A) Turn what a DP relying on a good throw from the pitcher to SS/2B, knowing that any goofiness results in a run, but if turned properly you're out of the inning with no runs.

Remember the situation. You're Sonnanstine, one of the best in the business at holding runners on. Utley has decent speed, but no way is he running with the pitch with a highly K-prone Ryan Howard at the dish. And Howard is very, very slow. It's hit right at you.

The Red Sox may not have been as bad as the typical pre-2008 Rays season (maybe 1992-93 but that's stretching it a little) in my living memory, but the Patriots, Celtics, and Bruins all, at one time or another, have been, for several seasons at a time in all three cases. It's not the same.

It hurts most when you're let down. A 3-12 Patriots team mailing it in their final game of the season in the miserable climes of Foxboro in December is not really a let down, even if some sportswriters thought they had a shot to avoid double-digit losses going in. (Honestly, that seems like the Stone Age now, but it wasn't *that* long ago.) And neither is an all too typical 30-42-8 Bruins campaign that comes on the heels of them trading anyone who's been good enough long enough to command real money. If you're watching at all by then, you should know what's coming, and if still hurts, you're probably a little oversensitive.

The Tampa Bay Rays, in the World Series the first time that most people who aren't prospect hounds have paid them even an iota of attention, have never broken anyone's heart.

Sorry Answer Guy. I don't know if it's because this is such a common theme of your cousin, Sports Guy, but I find "my suffering is worse than your suffering" type of arguments to be, well, insufferable.

The Rays have been positively, undeniably hopeless for a decade. Yet there are fans like Jim W. and Brickhaus who remained committed TB fans. And if that enthusiasm is rewarded with a WS victory, damn right they've earned it every bit as much as any other fan base has earned a title, with the obvious exception of Yankee fans. :)

Am I the only Red Sox fan who is pulling for the Rays?

I'm rooting for the Phillies, but I lived in Philadelphia 2004-06, and had Phillies season tickets in 2005. If it were Rays vs. just about anyone else in the NL, I would be completely and totally ambivalent.

Basically, "best" can be a perfectly fun category for discussion and debate, but when people start talking about it as a real, knowable, quantifiable thing, it's a very bad sign for the state of discussion.

Or when a team wins the regular season record, head to head record and a 7 game postgame series. Then it's pretty clear.

There are two ways to look at this. Quality vs. Success. There's the amorphous, theoretical question of "better overall season/estimate of true talent" - the one MCoA mentions. This is not always knowable. It's not as simple as "well, team X won more games head to head, and had a winning percentage .012 higher", so that's that, we can say for sure one way ofr the other." If we're talking Red Sox vs. Rays in 2008, given records and run differentials and component stats and intangibles and all that, we don't know the answer to that question. No one does or could for certain, not with two teams this closely matched. Of course, the answer to this question doesn't matter one bit - it's just interesting to think about or argue.

Then there is the much simpler question, but, at the end of the day, more important - who won? Who was more successful? Well, again, if we're talking Red Sox and Rays in 2008, the Rays won, and that's that. Fishy's (er, bunyon's) post is the answer to the "success" question, not the "quality" one. Flags do fly forever, after all.

The Red Sox were a frustrating team to root for during my lifetime up until 2004. They were teases. Only six losing seasons and they were usually in the hunt untill late September, but they had a lot of close calls. But that's all in the past now. The Cubs are the current teases in baseball. In football, it used to be the Vikes and the Bills but they've both have had periods of non-competitiveness since their salad days.

The Cubs are the current teases in baseball. In football, it used to be the Vikes and the Bills but they've both have had periods of non-competitiveness since their salad days.

It's not so much about the periods of non-competitiveness. Every franchise has that, even the Yankees, Lakers, and Cowboys. I'd be happy to pull for the Bills.

Re: Sonnenstine,

I agree the move was defensible. That charge to the plate, field, turn-and-throw back to second is really dangerous. The real mistake was why Longoria moved off of the bag. If he simply does his job in a rundown and stays on the bag, Rollins is out easily (though, admittedly, less amusingly).

The Red Sox were a frustrating team to root for during my lifetime up until 2004. They were teases. Only six losing seasons and they were usually in the hunt untill late September, but they had a lot of close calls. But that's all in the past now. The Cubs are the current teases in baseball. In football, it used to be the Vikes and the Bills but they've both have had periods of non-competitiveness since their salad days.

I've only been a Phillies phan for a few years, since moving to the Philadelphia area in 2001 (previously I wasn't really a hardcore baseball fan at all, but I rooted for the Mariners), but this is what it has been like for me up to this year. They've been consistently decent, only finishing under .500 once since I've followed them, generally in the hunt well into September, but never quite getting over the hump. Last year of course they made the playoffs, but that was such a quick exit it hardly seemed like anything. Finally this year they seem to be finally fulfilling the promise.

Phatj is correct. Up until the end of last year I maintained a list of how many games each MLB team had won in the last decade, with the point being that the Phillies had won more games than any other team with no playoff appearances.

Now that title goes to the Blue Jays, by a huge margin.

Now that title goes to the Blue Jays, by a huge margin.

It helps to be running out of contenders for the honor. Down to seven now, I believe.

Now you know what it's like for a Red Wings fan to see the Stanley Cup in places like Anaheim, Raleigh, and, yes, Tampa Bay before it was returned to its rightful place last spring.

Well, that's nonsense. The Trianlge is largely populated by northern transplants that were sick of bad weather and, well, bad everything. The Canes fanbase is made up largely of people that moved ehre and a hockey team followed them. they wouldn't still be here if it didn't do okay. It's been ten years and have been to the finals twice. That's decent.

I don't think there is another starter in baseball I would take over Hamels right now,

HAhahahahahahahaahaa! Johan santana is MUCH better. (So is Jake Peavy and several others).

MLB:NCAA Football Basketball::AL East Fan:SEC ACC Fan

Fixed that for you.